You're coming from digital and have enough experience now to know you are into records. Great. Turntables and records are a whole thing unto themselves. The good news is there's no right or wrong. Any of the things you are considering, new cart, platter, whatever, they will all open up a new window in terms of sound quality. No doubt. So no worries there. What's different and pays to think about with turntables is they are (or can be) a very long term investment. Mine is more than 15 years old and is still going strong and far down the list of components I would like to upgrade. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 There are lots of very old (vintage) turntables still very highly regarded. My point is a turntable can be a much more long term buy than just about anything else. So that is one upgrade path, to save until you can afford a level that will last you a good long time. But remember there is no right or wrong. Another equally good but different upgrade would be to plow as much as you can afford right now into a really good cartridge. The big advantage going this route is huge immediate improvement much greater than you could ever get with something like a better platter. If you go this route I would highly recommend something like the Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC https://sound-smith.com/cartridges/fixed-coil/zephyr-mimc-%E2%98%86 While $2k I believe all Soundsmith are 25% off right now. Ordinarily I wouldn't recommend putting a lot in a cartridge right away because they are sort of disposable items and I like to think more long term. But Peter Ledermann will rebuild these and for a good enough price you can consider them a longer term investment. Last thing to think about, the phono stage. Equally as important as all the rest. What are you using now? |
Thank you MillerCarbon, that is a lot of good information to think about. Right now i’m my MA5200, I do not have a separate phone stage. |
What mc notes is correct; I would add that you want to consider how much tinkering you like/want to do. If you enjoy optimizing mechanical systems, you will be well-rewarded with a more advanced table. That comes at a cost though, so you want to consider what kind of a budget you’re comfortable with.
Your MA5200 has a very solid MM phono section, so you can take advantage of a higher performance cartridge easily. That might also be a good way to get your feet wet with essential mechanical skills you’ll need to learn no matter which course you choose. Start with downloading a protractor and double-checking the alignment on your cartridge. That’s free and correct alignment is the most important part of getting the most out of your vinyl rig.
Second, verify the VTF. I don’t know if Debut ships with a scale, but if you don’t have one you’ll need to get one at some point anyway. They can be found at minimal cost for simple balance types. Just make sure you repeat the measurement several times to make sure you’ve got it right. The 2M Red supplied with your table has a specification of 1.8 grams. Note that you’ll want to recheck alignment and adjust if necessary because a change in VTF can cause a change in geometry too.
For the simplest and least costly upgrade, you should invest in a decent cleaning and anti-static accessory set. There are a lot of choices there, and searching the forums here will yield a lot of information. At a minimum, an anti-static carbon LP brush and a stylus brush are needed. I’d strongly recommend a wet cleaner to go along with that like the LAST offering or similar, but you have to decide what’s right for you.
Next, you could retrofit a 2M Blue stylus into your 2M Red body for an immediate improvement. That "should" preserve the geometry, but again use the protractor to verify that. You could upgrade the platter if you wish, but I’d suggest a disk clamp instead. That more tightly couples the vinyl to the platter to reduce resonances, tends to reduce the effect of warps and helps eliminate slippage. If you really want to try a new cartridge, the 2M Bronze could be worth the investment, but that’s between you and your wallet.
Beyond that, you’d be best served by moving to a more advanced table. The reality of the Debut is that it is an entry-level table and upgrading it yields comparatively modest results. Basically, a $500 rig can consume $1000 of tweaks and still be lacking. A $1500 table with $500 in tweaks can deliver years of satisfaction. In my case, I’m still using a SOTA Sapphire I purchased in 1984 for $900. That story was posted here years ago and is one of many similar tales.
Vinyl is the best part of the audio hobby IMO, and I heartily welcome you aboard. Remember always it is a hobby: Don’t obsess and don’t stress! Just enjoy.
Keep us posted on your progress and happy listening! |
Its true, a turntable rewards tweaks like you can't believe. Your Project table is plenty good enough for you to know you love vinyl. Which is really something considering its a very entry level table. Getting more involved with setup and adjustments like effischer suggested will pay big dividends now and even bigger ones later on when you do buy your next table because you will know so much more what matters from actual experience.
The truth is what you already have is more than good enough so that all your most cost-effective upgrades right now will be tweaks, accessories, and adjustments. I'm not just talking about the turntable either by the way. I mean all of what you have. But that is only considering sound quality and sound quality alone. Because a lot of the most effective improvements are invisible. But how things look matters too, and more to some than others. So really it turns out that as important as it is to know the components its equally important to know yourself.
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Hi I have project debut and upgraded the platter to acrylic and the cart to blue Orto. Small improvement with platter, big improvement with the cart. Also using the Mc MA5200. But I would have to say that it is only a matter of time before the disease flares and I upgrade the tt. Probably to something in the 3-4K range, used. Just doing the research and looking around for the right piece. So it has been a worthwhile investment for a couple of years but since life is short I would recommend going as big as you can as early as you can. Enjoy!
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@aasteven111 - I have a similar TT to you. Mine is the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB. It is based on the same TT as yours, has the same arm and cartridge. Only difference is mine came from the factory with the acrylic platter and it has a speedbox electronic speed control.
I enjoyed it for a while then did a couple of upgrades. I replaced the Red Stylus with the Blue Stylus and I upgraded the phono cable to an Audio Sensibility Impact SE. Those two upgrades did make a pretty significant improvement to the SQ. I also did a complete alignment/setup to insure the setup was optimal.
Although I enjoy my table very much (and every day!) I don't think I would invest any money into a Debut if I were looking for improvements. The platter, stylus and phono cable would cost you another $400+. I think I would sell the Debut for whatever is the going rate and look at investing the (up to) $1500 into a higher end TT.
My TT is a good sounding table, very musical and enjoyable, but a bit noisy. I was considering the upgrade to an Ortofon 2M Bronze, but I think I'll do that upgrade on a different table. One that has the ability to pull out more performance from the complete setup. |
The pro-ject classic evo with the quintet red moving coil would be a nice upgrade. Although the north American model comes with a sumiko amethyst moving magnet...found out the hard way and returned it. It was falsely advertised as coming with the ortofon. Still a nice table. I ended up just sticking with my good old pro-ject classic sb with my hana el. Also have a quintet blue in the wings to try. I did upgrade the sub platter to the aluminum evo subplatter and added a hide in the sound mat in dark purple to compliment the hana in moss green. This up against the eucalyptus plinth looks lovely. |
I was in the same situation, I have a vintage Dennon TT and was considering a new TT. After doing much research, I found the most reasonable solution was a better cartridge. I changed my Grado Red 2 to the Ortofon MM Bronze and it has probably been the best upgrade so far.
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Use what you have. With a collection of 150 records, it's not worth the expense. I am old and most of my records were purchased when they were the only thing. If I were starting out today I might buy a turntable such as yours just to play around with a bit. Going whole hog into vinyl in 2020 isn't worth the effort. Unless you are in love with music recorded prior to the early 70's, digital is better in every way. |
@aasteven111: Sent a PM earlier. |
I think you should upgrade the turntable. And when you do, buy your last one. They are probably the most durable of all audio equipment as nearly everything is mechanical. A $2k+ turntable won’t hold you back with the better cartridges. Cartridges make a big difference and can help you fine-tune the sound to your system.
Because you have a Project with an integrated headshell, I suggest you try something with a removable headshell. It has the advantage of allowing you to try a wider compliance spectrum of cartridges.
I recommend the Technics 1200GR($1700)...or even the 1200G ($4k) which I own and love. The GR is understood to be 85% the sound quality of the G. They have gimbal mechanisms that are astoundingly precise. Handling the 1200G tonearm coming from an already precise 1200mk2 was a revelation. It’s like grabbing thin air.
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I say go all-in on vinyl. I still buy NOS, sealed vinyl from pre-80s on eBay. And I think analogue is making small comeback in boutique recording studios. Discovering old analogue treasures is way more fun than digital. I have a ton of CDs and WAV files and an excellent CD player with 32-bit dual differential DACs but vinyl is more fun.
BTW, owning 150 albums was also my breakthrough moment. I started late...but in a few years I now have 900 great albums and counting. The world is too full of reasonable people.
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@aasteven111
I was in a very similar position as you, and also decided on a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon for exactly the same reasons.
I immediately replaced the Ortofon Red with a Grado Red, and soon after purchased the acrylic platter. Both were/are good improvements, but also cost $300 +/-. So, $675 +/- overall invested afterwards (bought the Debut as an open box). Still, not a bad ‘starter’ setup all things considered.
In my case, I needed a phono pre, so again, for cost and not sure if returning to vinyl would stick, bought a Schiit Mani. Great pre for the money, but now thinking of an upgrade, or purchase a linear power supply for the Mani.....but believe an overall upgrade would be money better spent.
Well, as you, I have probably purchased almost as many new (used) albums in a short period as I had total during the 60-70’s before moving to digital in the 80’s. Seriously. The return of vinyl in my system is here to stay long term. So, now I think had I realized that, I may have been better off buying a VPI Scout, or similar. But, it’s OK, it’s all part of the journey, it took a small investment to begin thinking of a larger one, and I now have a much better idea of what may be important in taking that step.
So, right now, I’m now thinking of a tube phono stage next, but really, probably won’t put more money into that table, including another cartridge, as I think the table itself is becoming the ‘weak link’. Thus, I will make any further decisions with another table in mind first. Another table/arm may make a cartridge upgrade/decision now an ill advised move. I have no big issues with the Grado in my current set-up. And I’m also keeping that in mind with a new phono pre as well.
It became clear to me rather quickly, that to have a really nice vinyl set-up takes a lot of cash. I just have not figured out how much I’m ultimately willing to invest. But the amount is more than I’ve already spent, for sure. Regardless, I’m enjoying the journey.
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From the posts and thoughts shared It seems it may be worth my while to Sit back and save up to purchase the TT that will be in my system permanently. If I’m going to have 15+ years of listening pleasure I think I can justify a higher expense.
I know I only have 150 records but there isn’t any filler. Everything I have is listened to and were thought out purchases. I think back and compare the feelings I had coming home with the Debut Carbon and only 3 records in tote Spending $500....questioning if I made a horrible decision.
I'm glad I took the plunge and even got a friend involved. Now it looks like I have the lifetime of spending my extra $$ in TT and audio upgrades LOL. |
hello,
I just took your journey into vinyl about 4 years ago.
Went through many turntable options mostly used and a few carts.
Trust me when I say this.If you want to top your digital setup you will need to reach a certain level of components in vinyl playback.
Here's what I recommend.
Used VPI Scout ( adjustments can be made very easy on this table)
Dynavector 20x2 mc low cart ( This is the cheapest cart to reach the level)
Dynavector P75 Mk IV phono preamp
I you decide to not go this route now, you will end up near here in the future. Good luck, Will |
I’ve just recently gotten into higher-end equipment and wasn’t sure if I would have much interest in listening to vinyl again. But after reading the lofty assessments of people here who claimed that vinyl has been the best source of their listening pleasure, I bought a Denon DP-300f with a 2M Red, which costs less than your Pro-Ject and I am guessing doesn’t sound as good as your TT. I had my old records and I inherited (were left behind) others, and I am in the process of cleaning them (almost finished, thankfully). The condition of the records varies — some sound very nice, others are slightly noisy, and some are don’t-play-that-again (fortunately, my TT also came with a lesser-quality Denon cart which I am using to sample these records and save wear on the Ortofon).
For now, Im satisfied with what I have. I still don’t intend to listen to records a lot, as I find the whole thing a bit fiddly. Digital is so much easier, and quiet. New records today, especially the audiophile variety, are pricey — seen some costing $50 to $100 (!) — and they take up space to store. I could see spending such money on a few to-die-for pressings, but overall I would rather just listen to digital. To each their own. My next moves will be to try a better room arrangement and perhaps some room treatments. I enjoy the sound of a nice stereo set-up but I have to balance the expense of that with other things I enjoy. Good luck in your decisions. |
I’m going to go full Yoda and say “Find a Well Tempered” either used or buy the Simplex new. You will be done searching unless your station in life dramatically improves. For a cartridge you’ve had some good recommendations above. No one’s said Audio Technica yet, but a nude square shank line contact tapered tube model by them, Mo-Fi, Sumiko, Ortofon or vintage cart with those features will work with your rig.
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You sound like you are in the same place I am at the moment, I have a Project Debut carbon and have upgraded the sub platter the Aluminium and the platter to the Acrylic and the Ortofon 2M Red to the Blue. The sound Is amazing once you do the upgrades. System is other wise is perfect but I think the 2M black is one my radar for the next upgrade.
Other wise I am loving vinyl, went from."see if it I still like it," to "OMG the sound is amazing" once you get the system sorted so you have nothing but music. Had a few Hmmmm issue but sorted.
Welcome aboard the good ship/t vinyl. depending on who you talk with it can be good or bad. I lean towards the fucken awesome side.
Stick with it. |
Aasteven12:
I thought and did what you did going, going to vinyl.
bit, stepped up a tad in $$$
Om running a Hana SL with Project Classic and Musical Surroundings phono.
Your tone arm is a good one, like the Classic
I would step up from the red to a Hana SL ($750)
big step up in detail and bass
Jeff
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