Lifters ForGetting Cables Off The Floor, Worth It Or Snake Oil


  •  I'm looking at some porcelain cable lifters to get some power and speaker cable up off the floor.  Does raising the cables off the floor really make a difference? It's going to be about 200 bucks for 10 of them. Thanks.  
zar
Snake Oil.

No known mechanism by which it could change SQ, AND no reliable listening tests in its favor.

Buy some quality monoblocks and use short cables to the speakers.

or... Buy better speakers, room treatments, or source material or ...
No
Yes.

For several years I have lifted all cabling a 6-9 inches off of carpet/rugs.  I used wood scraps/paint to make decent looking lifters. I never tried the porcelain or other esoteric lifters.
A combined issue of capacitance and motor noise.

The numbers are very tiny but they add to the signal.

The ear only hears the modulation of the peak values of transients so it does not care that the numbers are vanishingly small as compared to the whole,...it hears them anyway. The ear only hears the fine difference in the peak value(s), over time, in relation to one another, so the tiny modulations are heard. Discerned.

The ear only hears transient function peak values on the positive side, it misses the other 90% of the given signal.

And it can deal with hundreds of different frequencies of transients all mixed together, all at the same time, in real time.

The world’s most intricate and complicated FFT analysis system, one that science cannot equal, nor understand.

There is no electrical measuring or computational equivalent. It’s not even close.

All connected into a computational device with an average of 86 billion neurons, connected into up to 11 different dimensions of millions of said dimensional structures.

"You can’t hear that, my engineering degree and my measurements says you can’t!"...that behavior is, politely, illiterate, at best.

Connectedly:

"The Human Brain Can Create Structures in Up to 11 Dimensions"

Neuroscientists have used a classic branch of maths in a totally new way to peer into the structure of our brains. What they’ve discovered is that the brain is full of multi-dimensional geometrical structures operating in as many as 11 dimensions.

We’re used to thinking of the world from a 3-D perspective, so this may sound a bit tricky, but the results of this new study could be the next major step in understanding the fabric of the human brain - the most complex structure we know of.

This latest brain model was produced by a team of researchers from the Blue Brain Project, a Swiss research initiative devoted to building a supercomputer-powered reconstruction of the human brain.

The team used algebraic topology, a branch of mathematics used to describe the properties of objects and spaces regardless of how they change shape. They found that groups of neurons connect into ’cliques’, and that the number of neurons in a clique would lead to its size as a high-dimensional geometric object.



And then it just gets more complicated from there on out.

Read that again: "the most complex structure we know of". And monkeys using them have various levels of self awareness, skills and projections. Various levels of interconnectedness in those structural potentials.

And thankfully we are individuals, and we each have various levels of skill. Machines, on the other hand.. are the same, and are as product and commodity. Humans are individuals and different. A good thing. Try not to be product or commodity. Think. Grow, investigate. Negative proofing is dogmatic science - and is a ship of fools.

I don’t mind people possessing ignorance, as ignorance itself, conceptually, is innocent, but when that ignorance tilts at something it does not understand, and it involves my life, and continues a push in the face of refusing data and refusing realities....---I may just start pushing back.

So, in effect, cable risers work, all that other esoterica is relevant and much of it works as advertised--to those with the neural connectedness... to 'get it'.

You have an explanation, as a doorway of investigation, no one owes you ~even an inch~ - more than that. It is valid in the world of science if you venture down that rabbit hole that requires a certain minimum of intellect applied, and.... have a nice day.
Teo, that was beautiful. Thanks. 
The best thing about these risers is it makes your cabling look neat. I have seldom heard a difference in sound by using cable risers. How does 11 dimensions correlate to the hearing of sound?  I only use 10 myself
Alan
The article and source data says that some only get 7 dimensions of connectivity. But what that means, is not known or written of. So the meaning is ambiguous. perhaps it is connected to higher brain function in complexity of data analysis and speed of analysis. Which means an expanded data and knowledge base, for starters. But that is all conjecture at this point, so who really knows. But the data for the structures did indeed arise and be found real, in the study. The indicators are in the mentioned directions.

So it may play out in hearing function and realization as tied to intellect.

Ears have an IQ just like conscious and unconscious cognition does, and we each possess our genetic and learned variances in those areas.

So some can't hear it and can't intellectually wrap their head around it. But that does not necessarily mean it is permanent, it may simply be all about levels of exposure to clear and clean enough audio systems that may allow them to systematically find and discover.

Some project emotion and refuse, as a way of living life in a world of dogmatic negative proofing. These are the most difficult and repetitious... and grind forums of decent audio people...into the ground. If they be allowed to continue, that is the result.
At CES 97 Pierre of Mapleshade and I suspended all cables and power cords from the ceiling using eye hooks and string, taking care to tie a rubber band on one end of the string. Was that wrong?

@teo, Thanks, great stuff!
I always have my speaker cables and power cords lifted off the floor. Yes, it does make a sonic difference and one doesn't need to spend a fortune on fancy devices to obtain that goal, however, I'll admit that some of those cable lifting devices do look very elegant!

My only complaint regarding suspending cables from the cealing is depending on the location of the room it might be difficult to accomplish, degrades the look of the room and usually will not meet the wifes expectations.
BTW; I've used wood blocks, wood blocks with a large V cut into the top and the cable supported by a large heavy duty rubber band, porcelain cable insulators, and acrylic lifters. 
They all worked and I could not tell the difference based upon music other then the music sounded better with the cables on some type of lifter.
My experience has been yes for interconnects; haven't noticed much difference with speaker cables, but the risers do keep them much tidier.  I ran my interconnects under my floor and suspended them as Geoffkait mentions from the basement ceiling (we used rubber bands and a silicone gel), it did make quite a difference in sound quality (especially in smearing of images) vs. having them on the floor.  I don't think you need to spend a fortune on the things, but they can help.
My recollection about the rationale for lifters is some claim carpet the cable rests on acts like additional dielectric and alters the (capacitance?) properties of the cable. Others claim a vibration isolation benefit. Before spending $ on those ceramic lifters, why not experiment with DIY? Find out if you hear a benefit. I opted to go with some 4" solid wood cubes under my cabliing. Figured it couldn’t hurt. Did it make a difference? Not huge, though I do recall a few days after making the change thinking the system sounded clearer. Had actually forgotten I’d lifted the wiring. I’d call any improvement, real or imagined, subtle, however. See link here:

http://caseyswood.com/shoppingcart/zen-cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=12
It makes a huge difference. Everyone who sees your setup can realize you are absolutely passionate about audio and anyone who has any science background will know you are just plain foolish about your hobby.
It also makes it easier to clean the floor if the cables are off of it.

you can get pack of balloons $1..2, fill them with air partially using hand held pump and knot them around cable in several spots so you can place them on top of balloons. if you're creative enough with balloons, you can make 4 legs out of one balloon instead of 2.

it's going to make you an AIR BEARING SUSPENSION of wires for $2 not for $200.

not sure if it will make difference, but cables definitely will be elevated. while paying $200 is definite snake oil call, paying $2 washes the snake oil off and gives you room for cheap experiment. if you find this interesting and entertaining you can make money on your own snake oil selling same mentioned above CABLE AIR BEARING SUSPENTION or CABS tm.


Hi all and thanks for your responses. Teo, thank you for the extra and interesting thoughts. Not sure what I will do yet. The tidying up factor is at a minimum having me think about it. The lifters are on Music Direct. 

czarivey
you can get pack of balloons $1..2, fill them with air partially using hand held pump and knot them around cable in several spots so you can place them on top of balloons. if you’re creative enough with balloons, you can make 4 legs out of one balloon instead of 2.

Total isolation - lighter than air: get a bunch of helium filled birthday balloons. Float the cables! Yeah, baby!


My wife and I suspended every cable from the ceiling with fish line in our system, the effect was far from subtle, it was jaw dropping! You can actually see the sub power cable fish lines sway or dissipate the vibration, no snake oil with the fish line system. 
Great posts Teo. As on the money as it gets. Waiting to hear the counterpoint from the pseudo-scientist skeptics, but guessing the same old arguments will be put forward. 

I use lifters in my system. The original thought was to use them to properly dress the cables (i.e. make sure there are appropriate distances between cables, and to ensure power cables cross speaker and signal cables at 90 degrees where possible, etc.). Apparently some of the deep thinkers here find no value in that. Plus, it makes everything look more organized and that is a consideration for some. To each their own. I never bothered to compare the sound before and after. They were inexpensive, and they more than accomplish the cable dressing as I wanted. Any sonic improvements above achieving appropriate spacing and routing would be icing on the cake, and their is no evidence that it hurts the sound. Their are certainly cheaper options to experiment with than what you are looking at as others above have suggested. Give it a try for yourself.
csmgolf
Great posts Teo. As on the money as it gets. Waiting to hear the counterpoint from the pseudo-scientist skeptics, but guessing the same old arguments will be put forward.

I use lifters in my system. The original thought was to use them to properly dress the cables (i.e. make sure there are appropriate distances between cables, and to ensure power cables cross speaker and signal cables at 90 degrees where possible, etc.). Apparently some of the deep thinkers here find no value in that. Plus, it makes everything look more organized and that is a consideration for some. To each their own. I never bothered to compare the sound before and after. They were inexpensive, and they more than accomplish the cable dressing as I wanted. Any sonic improvements above achieving appropriate spacing and routing would be icing on the cake, and their is no evidence that it hurts the sound. Their are certainly cheaper options to experiment with than what you are looking at as others above have suggested. Give it a try for yourself.

>>>>>Well, that’s not really the issue here. Props on all the drama anyway. That reminds me, nobody’s mentioned Lizzie’s toilet paper rolls. What’s up with that?
Toilet paper rolls or balloons would be equally effective as $200 elevators. 

However, people will just laugh at the audiophile as a complete nutjob. 

The advantage of ceramic cable elevators (similar to what is used in electrical power distribution) is huge. People will rarely laugh at the audiophile, as these elevators  will superficially appear to be serving some real bonafide purpose!!!
@shadorne have you tried cable supports?
I'm willing to try something if I can do it cheaply. $200 for cable elevators is a lot. Google ceramic insulators and you'll find loads of different sizes and shapes. Vintage ones look cool but are more expensive, but newer white ceramic insulators for electric fences are only a few dollars each. Here's an example:
https://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/zareba-corner_post_ceramic_insulator_-_10_pk./0000000220275?utm_sou...
That said, I haven't tried elevating my cables yet. I'm interested to learn what you hear, if anything.
Any lifter on the floor is not going to yield sonic improvement or very little.
Suspension from the ceiling is another story. but like already posted to each his own.
So....I have 10' long cable going from my amp to my spkrs.  Back in the day, due to logistics, my rack was closer to my left spkr than my right resulting in the cable to the right not touching the floor while the left needed to be coiled, obviously lying on the floor.  I used to ponder this 'cable elevator' tweek wondering whether, due to my layout, should one spkr sound 'different' than the other since one cable was 'elevated' while the other wasn't.  So I switched my preamp to mono and actually sat down to listen to each speaker separately.  I'm sure it won't surprise anyone that this most un-scientific of experiments resulted in zip, zero, nada, bupkus!;)  Since than I've moved and have less space for the rig, so the spkrs are closer together resulting in both cables being coiled.
anyone who thinks that the carpet the cable rests on acts like an additional dielectric cannot do math
Anyone who thinks that electric static fields and vibration don't affect the audio signal in cables is naive.

I, like shadorne, thought of saving empty bathroom tissue rolls, gluing them together (with some in the middle cut shorter, to create a channel for the ic's, speaker cables, and power cords), and painting them black or brown (black to match the cables, brown to match the floor). In a house of three, it's amazing how fast the rolls pile up. Paper towel rolls would be taller, but we don't use that many of them.
Anyone who thinks that electric static fields and vibration affect the audio signal in cables is naive and does not understand quantitative effects.

If someone tells you otherwise, use Google to find his idiotic web site.

And.. Anyone who thinks that electric static is a real term doesn't even have the 9th grade education to use the word electrostatic
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Ouch. 👨🏼‍⚕️
+ randy-11, on multiple levels
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no reason one shouldn't consider visual aesthetics in a HiFi setup

after all the entire thing is about aesthetics

but don't confuse it with SQ


Paul_graham,
Now that's as reasonable an explanation as any. As long as the cost is sane, who's to say how one dresses up their acoustic achievement? 

You can look at it like window tinting on a car or a nice leather case for your camera. Both aren't needed but it's totally up to the individual.

Finishing touches are a reward unto themselves.

All the best,
Nonoise
FWIW my experience is that the vibration control effect is more important than the dielectric. I recently upgraded from Shunyata Dark Field Elevators V1 to V2. The latter have an elastic suspension. On my long (10 meter) interconnects the impact of the suspended lifters is noticeable. Greater clarity and ease, without them the system sounds slow and congested

http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/products-vm/accessories/df-ss-detail

personally I have never liked the heavy porcelain ones my alternative (which I use on the long runs providing power to my actively shielded cables) are the simple Doug Fir ones from Cardas. The Shunyata are expensive but you could come  with a DIY alternative with a similar elastic suspension
Not sure I can help with the cable issue but I can sell you magic tweezers to make your cd's sound better. Wait! I have a green magic pen for the cd's too! Got you covered...Save your $$ and apply it to something qualitative please...
nonoise
Paul_graham,
Now that's as reasonable an explanation as any. As long as the cost is sane, who's to say how one dresses up their acoustic achievement.

Whoa! Hey, that's weird. Paul_graham isn't even on this thread. Cue Twilight Zone music.

geoffkait,
He was but his post was removed. 
🙃
Twillight Zone indeed.
He must have been a very bad boy.

There's no easy answer to that but one thing for sure lifting them off the floor may not be enough.... it might in effect be better to ensure that they are positioned at equi-distance between the ceiling and the floor.
randy-11  Your statement is quite strong. It presupposes that somehow all of us understand how to determine what "math" is required for this problem and then even more for us to successfully do the "math" that would provide the correct answer. I assume there are some who frequent this forum that have that ability including engineers, scientists, audio designers, etc. But, as a guess, I'd assume most of us in here don't have that skill set. For me, I know I'm not one of those who can do the math.

Now for the obvious question, No, I've never tried this tweak so I've no skin in the game.

Finally, for me, with tweaks, (and I've done few) I just try them and if they make a worthwhile change, I'm pleasantly surprised. Because, like you, better sound quality is my objective.
is it that hard to learn?

or run a real test
Good for OCD solve but that's about it

I have a dozen ceramic cable lifters in my system. I don't notice any musical difference using them or not but I do like the way they look holding up my 25' long interconnects from my preamp to my amps. I wasn't expecting to hear much improvement but they do make a visual statement.
  I use cable elevators to separate any interconnects from power cables.  This is only in a couple of spots where crossing couldn't be helped.
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