Jazz for aficionados

I don’t think we even need to go to the issue of the popularity of jazz relative to other genres. First, many ( most) of the artists we are talking about predate R&R and were active when jazz was, in fact, a popular genre. Those “top ten underrated” lists are intended and considered by listeners that already have an interest in jazz; and, sadly, most pop/rock listeners today wouldn’t have a clue as to who Rollins or Coleman were. The point is that longevity of popularity of artists from the heyday of jazz is determined, more times than not, by the ultimate level of their contribution to the music.

I thought Blossom Dearie was a joke the first time I heard her.
Third time I heard her I knew she was not .

From a listing along the side of the Dizzy/Getz link was this one by Jaco. He certainly was one of the most "influential" bass players.  Not that many great bassists didn't come before him, but he developed new stylings that influenced those who came after him.  Interestingly I found other links to him alongside links recommended by others here following the Dizzy/Getz post.  His performances in jazz extended far beyond Weather Report.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtqvKnZ_LMg

Frogman,
I have a friend who share your opinion on this subject. The man is extremely smart, and I have no reason to doubt his mind in general. What I want to say that in 90% of the cases I agree with him on various subjects but sometimes and at some point, I disagree with him. Meaning, even though You are smart, we do not have to agree on everything and not entirely here. There could be somebody worth of knowing but remained unknown for various reasons, there could be somebody who simply does not want to be seen. And last but not least, if this unknown man or a woman played 'one single note' differently than for instance Trane, Miles, Getz, Peppe (and so on), then they would be worth of my attention.

mary_jo, I don’t disagree with anything you wrote and I don’t see where there is any real disagreement between our respective general positions on this based on what we have written.  On a general scale, the big picture, history speaks for itself.  On a smaller (personal) scale, who “is worth of the attention” of anyone of us is a personal thing and for me it comes down to the simple fact that there are only so many hours in the day ☺️.  Just so we understand  each other, what specifically about what I wrote do you not agree with?  

Wikipedia

Othello Molineaux is a jazz steelpan player who spent much of his early career backing bass guitarist Jaco Pastorius.[1] Additionally, Molineaux has worked with other musicians such as Monty Alexander, Chicago, and David Johansen.[2]

I saw Othello in Chicago with Ahmad Jamal, and he stole the show; everybody was wanting to know more about him.

That didn't make Ahmad too happy, but you must realize, people in Chicago had seen Ahmad many times, where Othello was brand new at that time, and he was on fire.

I recently got rid of a trash can full of records not worth the time it takes to listen to them; since I bought them a long time ago, I don't have a clue why I bought them in the first place, but I was tired of them taking up much needed space.

I must have been searching for "unknowns".

Frogman, ok, good, now I understand you better. Things are much clearer, if not completely.

One more thing:
"Have there been musicians of the artistic caliber of a Satchmo, Bird, Miles, Sonny Rollins, Trane, Bill Evans and, yes, Ornette Coleman, or even the “tier” below (Johnny Griffin) that slipped through the cracks and were never discovered or have been forgotten? Not a chance in hell."

It is as if you are saying: If the unknown one had been good enough (meaning great), we would have heard about him for sure.

And it is also as if we should not ’dig’ any further, ’cause it is already all there what is to listen. I know that you do not mean this but a bit sounded like this. : )

mary_jo, thanks for your comments.

**** It is as if you are saying: If the unknown one had been good enough (meaning great), we would have heard about him for sure. ****

Well, that is exactly what I am saying.  Now, to be clear, we are talking about comparison to the greatest.  Was there some unknown player in some little town that was of the exalted caliber of Miles or Trane that chose to remain anonymous, or ”didn’t get the breaks” to become well known during his lifetime or at some point after?  I suppose it’s possible that there has been an example or two of musicians with that POTENTIAL who, for personal reasons didn’t want the limelight; but I seriously doubt it for the reasons mentioned previously.  A player needs to be in playing settings that push him to full potential; staying in obscurity doesn’t allow that.  Moreover, part of what drives a creative artist is the need to express himself; so.....
“if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?”

Let me try and explain what I mean this way, and let’s try and look at the issue in concrete terms and not just the abstract.  Again, I am always glad to learn of some lesser known player.  It’s always interesting and sometimes adds to the historical context.  This is not a reflection at all of how I feel about Alex’s focus (sometimes) on lesser known players. I appreciate the posts very much and have enjoyed much of the music.  However, to be frank, I can’t think of a single one that has been posted who has caused me to think, based on MY feeling about the quality of the playing relative to most of the well known players of the same instrument, ”hey, he could have been a Miles or Morgan or....”.   

Concrete, not abstract, question for you or anyone else:  who and how/why?

Man can not live on "Hard-Bop" alone;    


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKZQxZjGhYQ


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgKMdqSUkKc

I think that I have all albums that I have posted here, and my personal feeling is that those ’underrated’ players are great ’spice’ to my (any) collection, simple beacuse it would be quite boring to have, perhaps only 20,30 ’great’ names, no matter that each of them could ’force’ you to have 50 of their records. After all, even among the ’greats’ not all of the recordings are worth having. But, its a matter of taste and the way each of us listen or buys records. I like to have broad selection but still, every now and than, think that I have nothing to listen...But wanted to point out, in ’defense’ to those ’forgotten’ players, that often lots of them made just one or two recordings as a leader, due to different, mostly unfortunate circumstances of their lives. So, we will never know and there is no point to speculate could they become ’great’ one day or not, but for me they are also an essential part of jazz, in the way I imagine it. Than again it was quite funny (or sad?) to read Frogman’s posted lists....it looks that jazz in general is slowly (or it is already) going to be forgotten....

Here is King Flemming trio...
https://youtu.be/d7o4j1vqxsM
https://youtu.be/KkcNUxien4Q

Alex, I think that you haven’t said anything on which Frogman would not agree. Pity you cannot see it. You and Frogman talk the same but just from other perspectives.

p.s. But your last sentence is somehow, unnecessary.

That cover on the King Fleming Trio looks like somewhere I've been, maybe it was in a dream. The misty night and the music belong together; I must have that album.

King Fleming is a name I've never heard, but his music is unforgetable.

This lady is truly underrated, but she is well represented in my collection. Lorez Alexandria is a singer that I have admired since the first time I heard her; probably in 69.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWXimvRssmQ


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH3own5sERU


     

These were my favorite songs by her at that time, now I have everything I can find by her.


It seems she left Chicago, and got lost in LA, but in a good way; LA fell in love with her. Since good artists can make a good living in LA without being well known nationally, they don't die in poverty; those are the endings I hate most.

I hope you grow to like Lorez as much as I do.

You are quite right, mary_jo, I agree with what Alex is saying. The only thing I would disagree with is that I don’t believe for one second that jazz will be forgotten. It will always be here. Different; it always changes. The reason it sometimes seems that there is nothing new to hear is that jazz evolves; but we don’t always keep up.

Very nice King Fleming clips, Alex; I enjoyed those.  Shades of Ahmad Jamal...big time.  

Great Lorez Alexandria clips, O-10; wonderful singer.  Have you heard these?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5LbY2EANfe4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0MG1dY-A9Ec

Btw, Lorez Alexandria recorded two lps with King Fleming.  Can’t find them on YouTube. 

A natural extension of BeBop. I do wonder what Paul Bley thought when Ornette stole his whole band.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su1cDihBbWg

Hugh Masekela- R.I.P.

Yes Frogman, I have both of those and enjoy them very much.

Jafant, I have many of his albums in my collection, and I've enjoyed his music for many years.

He will be missed.

Frogman, music will continue, but not "Jazz". At some point we have to define jazz, and not consider any music played to be "Jazz".

Let us start from the most fundamental point, and that is with the artists who create jazz; in their hearts they are "humanitarians" they care for other people. That means that "love" is more than just a word, it's a profound emotion we feel for others, and it's expressed in the music we call jazz.


I don't know when one generation ends, and another begins, but I know from my point of view, I'm living in a strange generation, and this goes for much younger people that I know and love. While their love for me is true, it's because we're related, their love does not extend to the broader community; they don't have "empathy", and what I say is verified by many of the posts right here on "Audiogon".

Jazz is passing away with the artists who created it, and when those who appreciate that art are dead, jazz will be dead.

Hi jazzbos, I've remained on the sidelines during discussions of "underrated" musicians for a couple of reasons.  I'm unclear what constitutes being underrated.  Is it based on record sales, jazz polls won, number of times they made the cover of Time magazine, or anyone's individual perspective?  And is it their musicianship, how many groups they've lead, how many compositions they've written which were then covered by others, or how much their technic influenced other players?  Curious minds want to know. ;^)

However I now come out onto the playing field, mainly because of a concert experience last evening here in San Diego.  The Mingus Dynasty performed a tribute to the "Tijuana Moods" album.  BTW, they also performed the night before in Tijuana and I heard it was an over-flow crowd success.

Anyway, frog may know some or all of the musicians since they are based in NYC.  And they all have recording experience other than with Mingus Dynasty, so others of you may know some of them too.  But they were all unknown to me.  The band:
  Wayne Escoffery - tenor sax
  Brandon Wright - alto sax
  Alex Sipiagin - trumpet
  Frank Ku-umba Lacy - trombone
  Theo Hill - piano
  Boris Kozlov - bass
  Adam Cruz - drums

I found the individual musicians to be either very good or outstanding.  Yet, as stated, I'm not familiar with any of them.  So does that suggest any or all are underrated?  I'm not sure.

Rok, 'Twixt optimist and pessimist
The difference is droll...
The optimist sees the doughnut;
The pessimist sees the hole.

Jazz will survive as long as humanity does . Looking out for next 100 years about a 50/50 proposition .

pryso, I do indeed know most of those guys; some of the top young (ish) jazz players in NYC. Terrific players. For some perspective, and certainly not to take anything away from any of them, but simply to highlight the following point: an ongoing project like “Mingus Dynasty” has a pool of players that is drawn from for each “chair” based on individual availability. A lot of the players in that pool are very busy with other projects and touring. So, some players like Ronnie Cuber who is a particularly great player may not have been available to travel for those concerts. My point is simply that jazz is not dying and will not die. There are so many great players out there, and many more coming, that are committed to the art form. I firmly believe that the decline in jazz has bottomed out. It will certainly not return to the level of popularity that it once had, but it will be with us for a long time. I think that part of the reason for the negativity about the future of jazz is that many listeners get locked into a very narrow range of style “likes”. It’s also one of the reasons that sometimes they feel they can’t find new music. The amount of good jazz to discover is practically endless. Imo, listeners who are completely closed to the styles of the past (ragtime, hot-jazz, swing) can not possibly be a good judge of where it’s headed.

A couple of the guys you heard that night:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dF2zLBHtdzs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkx_UxgUFEs

Thanks frog, I hoped you would follow up.

Yes, I knew that Mingus Dynasty was not a specific group of players, but drawn from those available in a larger collection. I suspect every member of that collection is a top flight musician, and so there is no let down regardless of who participates at a given time.

I came away with two major impressions regarding the musicians.

First, the two who I would say were most "underrated" (to keep with our theme here) were Hill and Cruz. Hill was extremely dynamic in the sense of loud to soft. On some numbers his emotion coiled up and sprang from his body as he bounced about in front of and over the keys. Yet other times he barely whispered the notes. All with feeling and in tune (thematically) with the other musicians. Cruz was simply cool and nonchalant, overall effortless while keeping perfect time with creative steady and dynamic moves.

And not to be politically incorrect, but I was impressed that two Russian born musicians (Alex and Boris) who immigrated to the US displayed such depth and feeling for music written by Mingus. This was seemingly in defiance of some comments on this site about influence of background as it relates to or might limit jazz expression.

But that’s just my view.

Frogman, assuming I'm 18, and decide to become a jazz musician. I could go to Juilliard School of music, and graduate with honors as being one of the best on my instrument; that would not make me a jazz musician of note for sure.

The ability to start with a blank sheet of paper and create something is reserved for the very few.

There are jazz musicians of note who never went to any school, but they could create; that's a special ability that few of us have.

While I could excel at playing someone else's music without a doubt, the question of whether or not I could improvise on the spot, and also create "new" music would determine my rating as a jazz musician.

You say I'm stuck in the past; well I've been stuck for a long time, and all these new records that get no play verify that; the records that get posted on this forum that I've only heard for the first time, that I rave about as must have records, also verify my reality as being one that's in the past.

I think you have made a very good assessment and evaluation of my taste in music, it's in the past.

A very fun, and in my opinion underrated (by some) album which I remember because my wild and crazy N.Y.C. "bohemian" aunt on my Mom’s side hung out with these guys "back in the day," brought me a copy of the newly-pressed, Soul featuring Coleman Hawkins- recorded in 1958 on Prestige. In addition to Hawkins, all the other players are first tier. She would tell me about this sax player called " The Hawk." (and about some of other players she knew)

A lot of things seemed simpler then....
I find Hawkin’s work irresistible to this day.

My aunt also gave me a copy of MJQ’s "No Sun In Venice" which I still have. It’s virtually unplayable because it’s so worn out, so now I stream it. I vividly remember the impact those tunes had on me.

"The Past Is Never Dead.  It's Not Even Past."
William Faulkner

This is esp true in the South.   So I am actually stuck in what some call the past, but I call the present.  I always use the present tense when talking about these folks.

Cheers

For me, one of the challenges, but great joys of living longer, is the increasing number of layers my mind and spirit accrues, and learning to process all that information.

What was then becomes what is now. There's a cliche- one foot in the past and one in the future-  or some damn notion or other which speaks to that.

Every day gives us new opportunities.  And, eventually we are gone.
:)
Cheers from the great Puget Sound.

pryso, excellent account of the music and the players at the Mingus Dynasty concert.  I agree with you about Cruz.  Fantastic drummer.  If you like modern jazz with a dose of Latin check out his work with pianist Danilo Perez; excellent.  Interesting observation about the two Russian born players.  I would say that a few decades ago there was some truth to the stereotype about jazz players from Europe and the East (with some exceptions, of course).  But I think it is no longer the case and it’s a testament to the fact that jazz is gaining popularity and not going anywhere.  Glad you liked the show.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-KK__zBHnSc

O-10, my intention was not to make an assessment about your musical tastes. I think you may have misinterpreted what I wrote. My point was that, if anything, some jazz fans don’t go back far enough in time; or look to the future. Not quite sure what the Julliard thing has to do with the subject at hand. I would just point out that the recent clip of “Moanin” which was deemed “better than the original” was of a performance by players many of whom are conservatory trained. An asset not a liability. On a more personal note, I would sincerely encourage you to not be so pessimistic about the future of jazz. It will persevere and benefits from our support for its future.

**** one foot in the past and one in the future-**** ps

Exactly!

Frogman, in response to: Juilliard was in reference to a musical institute of higher learning. We could have substituted your favorite school, there was no "subterfuge" in my post, it was direct.

Those three clips I posted was honoring "Pepper Adams", and Rok made the statement that "Night in Tunisia" sounded better than the original, since I knew what he meant, I agreed.

Conservatory trained is an absolute asset; musicians that were not, would have, if they could have; gone to a conservatory.

Those musicians did a marvelous job of "imitating" the original; Ronnie Cuber did an especially good job of imitating Pepper Adams; but having the ability for the original improvisation is what counts. That clip was my mistake, it should have been Mingus and Pepper Adams.

A large photograph of Pepper Adams appears in Baroness Pannonica De Koenigswarter's book.  Commonly known as "Nica", she was a patron of jazz musicians of her era; that large photograph is a statement that speaks for itself.

Her book "Three Wishes", is a compilation of photographs of jazz legends, and their three wishes in life.

In response to your "encouragement", I have both feet plus body and soul in the past; "short timers" count every second, and I don't have any to waste.

O-10, thanks for your response. For the sake of hopefully interesting discussion:

What makes you think that Cuber was imitating Adams? He was not. He was improvising around the music AS WRITTEN by Mingus bringing his own style to it. He sounded very different from Pepper. Also, why do you assume that the “new generation” of players are not improvising? You seem to be suggesting that only the players from the past improvised. Obviously, not so. Different, yes; and in some ways more harmonically advanced. Anyone of us may not like this newer, harmonically thornier style, but it is certainly spontaneous improvisation and it is the nature of this music to build on what came before it. I look forward to your comments.

If I made the mistake of assuming that the music was something I liked a lot, how could I not like the music.

In regard to how different Cuber sounded from "Pepper Adams", someone else will have to decide that, I'm not qualified.

Call it "improvising" or what you like, but when someone mistakes it for the original, I call it imitating.

So many jazz artists I've known were like "shooting stars", they came on brilliant and fast but didn't last. Although their very sketchy bios can be found in "Wikipedia", I don't have anything to add in regard to their personal life.

While they could do flat out unbelievable things on their instruments of choice, those things aren't recorded. While what is recorded is very good, it doesn't compare to what we fans witnessed live before they died.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sORyNSnnXMs


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sORyNSnnXMs


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXdqwiD5_fM


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNkag9AKgbA


They could make fire and smoke come out of an organ; if only they had lasted, you would have the opportunity to hear what I heard. What do you think about what I've presented?







         

Jimmy Smith certainly lasted. This has been presented before, but one more time wont hurt;


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP4LGEAfUEY

o10, I have a somewhat parallel perspective as you, but for slightly different reasons.

I too hold a strong preference for the "classic" artists from the '50s and '60s.  That's not to say the Young Lions have nothing to contribute or haven't recorded anything worth listening to.  For me it becomes a choice between time spent listening to musicians/albums I know I enjoy and delight in hearing again compared to time exploring new artists that I may or may not like.

All this is due to my age and the admission I don't likely have that many years left.  I came to this realization recently responding to an audio buddy about a potential upgrade to one of my components.  It is simply not worth the time, effort, and expense any longer chasing my tail with upgrades.  I'd rather spend my time listening to music I love.  And if I've heard that music 100 times, it doesn't matter since I choose to go back 99 times after initial hearing and obviously it brings me pleasure.

Anyway, if I didn't already have a huge library of LPs and a lesser number of CDs to pick from I might feel differently.  But I'm not likely to be able to listen again to everything I already own, so why worry about finding more?

Your motivation may be health, mine is age.  Let us hope we are both still able to continue on for some time yet.  Peace brother.