Jazz for aficionados

I really enjoyed your post Pryso. Just before I responded, I was going through old LP's denoting which were best to record. I concur with your entire post, that's because I'm enjoying these records now more than ever; it's because I can clearly hear and appreciate each sideman.

Good health is a tremendous blessing, spend time doing what you enjoy most; listening to the best music ever. I'll enjoy my evening even more after reading your post.

Pryso, I just made a new discovery while searching my LP's for something to download to hard drive; Gabor Szabo "Mizrab" is like new. All cuts are killer "according to my varied taste"


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJaAZ4z0_v4

Thanks o10, I'm pleased it reached you.  When I reread it before posting I almost deleted it, thinking it might sound too self-centered.  But then I thought, hey, I'm only offering my personal perspective.  We all have those.

I have some Szabo but I don't remember that one.  I need to check.  My collection exceeds the shelving space in my living room so more records are stored in the garage, and not all are easy to get to.

I know exactly what you mean by not enough space.

For years, I went shopping with a friend who was always trying to save money. He alerted me to every record sale, and we went shopping. The problem with sales is that the temptation to buy "unknowns" is too great because the price is right. Most of the time I should have left the unknown remain unknown.

Not until recently did I discover I had accumulated records I never play because I recognize the duds on sight. Nobody likes to throw away records, but once I realized they were simply occupying space, I bit the bullet and found an empty trash can. (you may not have that problem)


Today was a good day, I have been enjoying the fruits of my labors; listening to the vinyl from the hard drive playback (can't tell it from dropping the needle in the groove, but I had a lot of help getting things this way) When getting up and down is no problem, I know dropping the needle in the groove is more fun, but under the circumstances, I don't miss it.

It's a real groove for me to listen to one killer after another without getting up.


I thought about that upgrade thing you mentioned; they are always a lot more work than you anticipated, plus, after all these years of "upgrading" our rigs sound pretty decent.

Enjoy the fruits of your labors.

On life and on our time in life...

A wise man once said: “Books have a unique way of stopping time in a particular moment by saying: Let’s not forget this.”

I guess the music does the same...

Alice...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUMuDWDVd20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XNG7tmIQx4

Mary-jo, you have exquisite taste. Ecstasy was being in a living room with a number of people who appreciated that music, at about the time it came out. Nothing could be heard but the music; the "vibe" was tangible, we were all interconnected, it was magical.

It was a different world then; only those who experienced the magic of that time know what I'm talking about, but the magic was in Atlanta, it was in Chicago, it was in LA; it was all over.

Wonderful memories of people I knew at that time give me a warm feeling.

Orpheus, my first intention was to use the word ’magic’ at the end of the sentence "I guess the music does the same..." Instead of me, you used that word several times. And I wanted to post the link you posted but thought that somebody else might do it.

And that is a particular moment in time.

A magic.

Excellent clips, acman3. Sonny Rollins “A Night At The Vanguard” is a classic. Amazing player with one of the most powerful sense of rhythm of any jazz player. I am always amazed at the way that he becomes the rhythmic focal point. Instead of the usual sense that the horn player is playing over the pulse of the rhythm section there is the sense that it’s the other way around; the rhythm section plays to his pulse. Few players convey that feeling. And very nice seque to that great Ornette clip. Your comment about it being a natural extension of bebop is spot on. A very influential record that would lay the groundwork for what is generally referred to as “post-bop”. Fantastic solo by Ornette.

Great clips appropriately followed by pryso’s Jaco clip. As you point out, pryso, a very influential bass player. Actually a bit of an understatement I would say. Jaco turned the electric bass world on its head doing things on the instrument that players hadn’t even considered. Unique tone in part due to his choice of the fretless bass. Amazing technique and rhythmic concept that would be one of the main ingredients of a whole new wave in jazz informed by not only the past, but the new sounds of fusion and world music. He was a pretty good drummer too, btw. One of my most memorable experiences while in school in South Florida was that Jaco would occasionally bring his big band charts to be read by the school big band and would sit in on drums. Very raw drummer, but great! Did anyone catch the fact that Othello Mollinaux (steel drums) quotes Coltrane’s classic solo on Giant Steps (@8:00)?

Nice to see some focus on the new(ish) in jazz.

O-10, loved the MJQ clip; thanks for that. Great and very charming composition played with their usual finesse and class. One of the things I find interesting about the clip, particularly in the context of our previous discussion about what is improvisation and what is not, is that there isn’t a single note on the clip that is improvised. It’s all “through-composed” and in keeping with a lot of what is generally considered “Third Stream”. Beautiful clip.

Something new from one of my favorite current pianists. Beautiful touch and introspection. One of this year’s Grammy nominations:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL9tsD2Q6tx6vQg2uJ9N6P3gi0CxOoWefV&params=OAFIAVgB&v=UMw5z4...

Frogman, that's a very interesting photograph on the cover of Fred Hersch's album.

I liked his improvisation on "Whisper Not"; it did two things at once, it retained the original, but gave us his beautiful interpretation at the same time.

I'll have to search for more of Fred Hersch.

O-10, a couple of things that you may find interesting about the brilliant Fred Hersch.  First, there is not a single one of his ten plus records that is not worth hearing.  In 2008 he was in a pneumonia induced coma.  When he came out of the coma he wrote a performance piece about the dreams that he had while in his state of coma.  On this record, “Though The Forest” is completely improvised and “of the moment”.  Amazing musician!

frog, another interesting thing about Rollins' playing is to me it somehow sounds like there is more there, but not due to flurries of notes.  This is the best example I can think of, for me, it always seemed like it was more than just a trio -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5rCZcTfr2s

Classic record!   And I completely agree.  He was one of the first (possibly the first) to have the courage to play without a harmony instrument (piano, guitar).  He didn’t need it.  His command of harmony and creativity was so high that the listener “hears” the underlying harmonies of the tune as if there were a piano or guitar playing.  There is, as you say, the feeling that there is more there.  His solos were concise with very choice notes that clearly outlined the chord changes is an extremely logical way.  Take most jazz performances by other players, even many great ones, and somehow edit out the harmony instrument and the music is not nearly as effective.  He is also a master of note inflections and color; little note bends and subtle growls that add variety without relying on a lot of notes.  Great observation!

You just need to get yourself some NEW cryod cables and all will be well 😊 Your player will then play this. Sound quality maybe not as “audiophile good”, but even better in every other way:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4WPCBieSESI

The past gets better everyday;


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An7BEOSrZ30


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoEYZFHwSOA

rok, great stuff.  "The Bright Mississippi" is one album I did add to my collection recently (for me that means a couple of years ago).

And frog, thanks for the deeper comments on Rollins' technique.  Lacking a musical background I couldn't offer such an explanation.  Regarding your Satchmo link, any idea which version (what time) that was?  He recorded "West End Blues" a few times.  In spite of any "audiophile" credentials I might have, I can easily accept less than pristine recordings of his music. 

pryso, June, 1928.  

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/louis-armstrong-records-west-end-blues

And yes, great stuff, Toussaint.

This is mystical; everyone is thinking Allen Toussaint;


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAjgXxF29WE


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3a3RxVTuNc


I think "The Bright Mississippi" is his best.

Kenny Dorham: K. D. is here: New York City 1962 & 1966; K. D. trumpet; Sonny Red, alto, or Joe Ferrel , tenor.

Kenny died at 48, in 1972, and didn't play much toward the end. He is not always listed with the major post bop trumpet players, but deserves to be.

These two sessions were recorded at the Half Note in lower Manhattan, and the Flamboyan in Queens; both clubs were shuttered decades ago.


  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r8BxHDHcdI&list=PLpqsnWtrepGqfeaVbHQYyfIR6PIGsvvby


Just relax and listen until you can see yourself right there on the set at the Half Note in lower Manhattan where this was recorded.


Kenny Dorham is a "catch up" for me, but since I will no longer be chasing some illusive unknown "The next "Bird", or whatever, I can find time to listen to Kenny.

Pryso, I know you're addicted to vinyl, so if you find the "wax", let me know.

Here is one thing played both by above mentined Kenny Dorham and Sonny Rollins, on different albums, of course...

https://youtu.be/RmigWbsUQ0o
Kenny Dorham (trumpet), Curtis Fuller (trombone), Frank Haynes (tenor sax), Tommy Flanagan (piano), Ben Tucker (bass), Dave Bailey (drums)

Sonny Rollins And the Big Bras
https://youtu.be/_wp9BP5yH6s

Excellent clips, O-10 and Alex.  Nice to hear two very different approaches to the same tune “Grand Street”.  In keeping with pryso’s comment about Rollins, a good example of how “big” Rollins can sound in the company of a big brass section which tends to diminish the “presence” of lesser players.  I loved the Kenny Dorham broadcast tapes.  Fantastic playing all the way around with the  loose feeling that live (club) performances always have.  I have always liked Dorham’s unique trumpet style and he sounds fantastic here.  I particularly liked Sonny Red’s playing on these recordings; very forward looking with a harmonic bebop style that definitely points to the (then) future.  

Particularly interesting for me is the presence Joe Farrell on these recordings.  Now, THERE’s an under-appreciated player, imo.  Farrell is known primarily as the flutist and saxophonist in Chick Corea’s “Return To Forever” band that recorded the classic “Light As A Feather” among others.  Great to hear his earlier more “straight ahead” playing.  He went on to be part of CTI Records’ stable and his CTI recordings were always some of the most interesting of all CTI’s from that period; not as over-produced and overtly “funky” as most others.  However, for me it was always his work with Elvin Jones and Chick Corea that stood out.  Fantastic modern tenor sound and another player who made one not miss the piano:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxv6guUGUSg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d3OwvKdv-u0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oqp-3biB_tE

Probably the most beautiful and accomplished jazz flutist ever:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a_OEJ0wqt2g

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T4W5ODYFwmI

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=muJnrs_tDc4

Is Chick old enough to drink on that RTF? 

Agree, Joe Farrell was underrated. 

Next to last recording.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg47zYhDBs4

Found this nice recording with Woody.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6dp9_fK3Rc

Rok,close your eyes and imagine them in suites.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL1bnw6dLS4

Only fair to get Woody's solo on here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgOiHiA5_OI

Most interesting frog, I don't recall hearing Farrell pre RTF.  But I have a couple of those as well as one or two of his CTI albums.

As an aside, it is interesting with the several law suits in popular music for one composer or artist lifting an intro/theme/riff/whatever from another these days, it is a fairly common practice in jazz.  In fact it happens so often it can become a parlor game to identify all the other music references a soloist may include in their turn.

And not just jazz on jazz or jazz on pop.  It happens with classical music too, as in Corea's "Spain".  Of course Albeniz has been dead too long to come after any of the jazz musicians who adapted some or all of "Concierto de Aranjuez". ;^)  Second movement, go to 7:25 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye-FvKCZp3s

acman, as you may have read, I saw one of the current versions of Mingus Dynasty early last week.  Every iteration of that group I've heard has been top notch, all great musicians.  I like them almost as much as Charles hisself!

For anyone curious about the Rollins "Way Out West" recording that frogman and I referenced two days ago, see this from Michael Fremer about reissues.  And look for the link within the link for more about recordings.

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/sonny-rollins-way-out-west-deluxe-box-set-concords-craft-label

Frogman, on those piano-less trios, you can clearly hear the spontaneity of the improvisation; nothing rehearsed. Each individual musician was a star; none of them are sidemen on those gigs; that's what made those sets so spectacular, they were created right there on the spot, and could never be duplicated.

Great clips, acman3. Woody Shaw sounds amazing; and of course Farrell. Thanks.

pryso, good catch re Albeniz/Corea. You bring up an interesting point re musical quotations in jazz solos. First, musical compositions which are copyrighted are protected for the life of the composer plus (I think) 70 years or so. Usually the composer’s estate continues to receive royalty payments for 70 years after death.  However, there is something referred to as “fair use” which improvised solos would, usually fall under. You may find this interesting:

http://1630music.com/Publications/The%20Mythology%20of%20Copyright.pdf

Getting much deeper into the subject:

https://wesscholar.wesleyan.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1...

I was following your discussion, great thoughts you have and very interesting links you posted Frogman. I also thought that the use (of course non intentional) of four bars of music is perfectly legal. Must dig more into the subject.

Glad you enjoyed those links, mary_jo.

pryso made a good observation re players quoting other tunes in their solos:

**** In fact it happens so often it can become a parlor game to identify all the other music references a soloist may include in their turn. ****

As with most things it depends on the skill with which it is done. I wish I could claim to have said this: in a recent discussion on the subject a musician acquaintance said “When you are trying to channel John Coltrane, you don’t want to hear Woody Woodpecker”. To which another musician said: “Yeah, but not everyone is good at telling jokes”.

Charlie Parker was one of the most prolific at quoting other tunes. Surely due in part to the fact that he listened to and studied a wide variety of musical styles and was a huge fan of Classical composers, Igor Stravinsky in particular and whom he often quoted in his solos.. Here is as great an example of just how deeply into the details of a jazz giant’s playing some insane jazz-heads can get 😎:

On the subject of Charlie Parker’s quotations of other tunes in his solos (and, yes, he too quotes “Woody Woodpecker” in example #006):

http://www.chasinthebird.com/quotes_e.html

Lol, Frogman, that is absolutely crazy!!

My reaction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDK7sRLn-3E

But check the beginning of this song (I recommend not to listen further on):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmc8q2dcIMs

:))))

frog, thanks for digging so deeply to find those legal perspectives.  However, not being a lawyer I quickly became twisted around some of the logic presented there.  And just exactly what is the duration of "briefly quotes"?  ;^)

Anyway, quoting lines is such an established tradition in jazz (re: your Charlie Parker references) that I doubt it will end.

Now something for anyone who appreciates Louis Armstrong.  I've mentioned before that my dad was a big fan so I heard lots of his music while growing up.  I still have one 78 album (3 records so 6 songs) from his collection, Armstrong and his All Stars Town Hall Concert 1947.  I posted at least once from that recording previously.  Now recently I stumbled upon this link which appears to possibly be that entire concert.  Satch was both young and mature enough here that this may have been one of his optimum recordings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=120jlJAsfBk

Sorry all of you looking for "new releases".  This is going the wrong way. ;^)

Pryso, when I got into jazz, anybody before "Bird" was obsolete. That outlook remained for many years, but recently, new jazz has to be "very old" jazz, such as Louis Armstrong. (isn't that an interesting play on time)

I'm going to listen to this in it's entirety, and see where it takes me, after which I'll get back to you.

just a thought...

April in Paris
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCsNg6XB3dg

"You can't play anything on a horn that Louis hasn't played"

Miles Davis

Danny Grissett

This is the most current jazz I could find. He got a very good review in "Stereophile", and I wonder if I agree. I'm going to give him an extensive listen before I decide.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYGOAwW9Uq8


Since it's not fair that I give the first impression I wont; that could unfairly influence others.


Here's another sax man "Oded Tzur"; with a name like that he's got to be good;


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtHzOicisY8


That cut is titled "The Single Mother", and when you think of the struggles a single mother goes through, this music sounds quite appropriate.


This is the last artist; I decided to give him two.


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwYBaMLsmVk





      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-epBy5ixc0&list=PLdPq3R6AN_8EC-YBMxLzXbBfJcAEdc3Rf


Tell me what you think?

The music I posted didn't get rave reviews from this crowd. To be perfectly honest, it was almost work just listening to it; but it was highly rated by "Stereophile" and it was quite current, and it was labeled jazz. That's all I'm going to say about that.



Here is some music I down loaded to my hard drive; that means I like it, and I'll be listening to it a lot.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b04mJhk2OWU


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRKCnCiutTg


That second tune sounds like "Jan Hammer" was involved in this project; let's see if we can find any music by him.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UmOY6ek_Y4


Guess what? You got it.



          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQDU-2qMre0

I am not sure is this going to be the answer you are hoping to hear, but I have listened the samples and all the music is quite ’nice’....
....in a way that makes me think ’what a fine product’ ...but it lacks excitment, for me....or a sound of some particular tone or a note, that would make you check who is playing some instrument....

Also, I would be very much interested in hearing old jazz music produced with today’s tecnical standards, because I think that there is also something in a way that old recordings sound, that perhaps might have some appeal or at least sometimes, ’click’ of identification in ’our’ heads.
Its pitty that even with a Sacd or analog and with good equipment, lots of spatial ’information’ of an old music stays hidden,in a way....

For those who may be critical of "old" recordings and their technical approach, have you ever wondered why in particular the earlier Blue Note LPs command so much among used records?  You might answer "it's the artists", but many of those were reissued so are available in both newer analog or digital format.  

Just a quick review identifies one thing fans look for is engineering by Rudy Van Gelder.  RVG in the runout is gold!  The Contemporary issues engineered by Roy DuNann are similarly sought after.  These examples relate to miking (minimal) and general recording techniques.  Then there are preferences for tubed recording components verses solid state, and analog masters versus digital.  Also the quality of vinyl utilized during the '50s and '60s was superior to what was available after the oil embargo in the very early '70s, after which "recycled" vinyl was utilized, even by major labels.

Now admittedly many early stereo recordings were guilty of "a hole in the middle" of the soundstage, the result of panning emphasis to the left and right channels to highlight the stereo effect.  But a mono or blend control on your preamp could minimize that.

Other than the above factors, more "modern" recordings tend to mic individual musicians and often "isolate" them with sound panels in the studio.  A worse case is when other musicians are added from new tracks recorded at another place and even time.  What sort of musical cohesion can result from that?  The net result becomes a function of the mixing engineer, not the musicians themselves.

For myself, there are only two issues with older recordings, and I'm talking about those from the '50s and '60s, not earlier.  One is condition of an individual record - was it handled properly and not played excessively?  The other can be cost - just look at asking prices for some of those RVG Blue Note, particularly the earlier "deep groove" versions. 

You may not agree, but at least understand why some of us are not all that excited about "new" recording techniques.

pryso, I do agree; completely.  I think that we are often seduced by the “ear-candy” quality of “perfectionist” recordings to the extent that we overlook or forget a basic truth:  less is more when it comes to the recording of music.  Of course, there are exceptions to this, but the inescapable fact is that the more processing and “stuff” that is used during the recording process the more that is lost of the music in a very fundamental way that is very difficult to put into words; it’s about the human element in music making.  For me, that is the reason that there is something very truthful about those old recordings.  The path from the musicians’ instrument to the recording device is very direct.  That is also the reason that so many feel (myself included) that a good analog recording still beats the pants off a good digital one.  Additionally, “old school” engineers like RVG and some before him relied on their ears much more than engineers today and they prioritized the preservation of the sound as the musician made it and not as they thought it should be.  

Your clip of the Louis Armstrong concert is a good example of this.  First, I thought the playing was fantastic all the way around.  Louis was Louis; great as always.  Barney Bigard sounded awesome and it was a good reminder for me of just how great he was.  It was interesting hearing Louis sing without as much gravel in his voice as he did in later years.  Overall, I thought the clip was a gem.  Sound wise I thought it served the music extremely well and it is little details like the horns playing background figures without their own mics, but simply being picked up by the soloist’s mic and sounding appropriately “in the background” that give recordings like that a sense of honesty that I love.  When an overzealous engineer starts sticking mics in front of every horn and messing with balances is when the music gets screwed up.  Thanks for a great clip.

Thanks, mary_jo also for a great clip.  One of the classic pairings in jazz Ella and Louis.  Perfection; like really tart raspberry sauce and creamy vanilla ice cream.

**** You can't play anything on a horn that Louis hasn't played" ****

Well, a bit of hyperbole to be sure, but in a way goes to the issue of “truth” in music and is an expression of the kind of respect  that players have for his musicianship.  Obviously, Louis’ style, by definition, means that, in spite of the fact that he was a really great trumpet player, there was a lot done on the trumpet in later years that he never did.  However, what musicians mean when they say that is that as far as core musical considerations like incredibly “in the pocket” sense of rhythm and ability to manipulate it and his way of “telling a story” with music no one has done it better. 
Amazing and important musician.

Alex, you named the problem, "It lacked excitement". "Snowing on my Piano" is the only cut I liked; that's because I once lived at the end of a street with a wide "park like" island in the middle, and across from that was a grey stone church with high steeples. In the winter when it was snowing, this made a beautiful picture, that I would spend time gazing at out of my apartment window.

That was a very long time ago, but when "snowing" is in the title, I revert back to gazing out of that window. Evidently "Snowing on My Piano" projected snowing scenes.



I think that's been done; some of the CD's in my collection of the best jazz hits of the 50's sound better than my records, they are cleaner, and have more dynamic range, I don't recall the space.

Pryso, will be short, do not want that this story becomes an 'audiophile' discussion. My point is, if we speak about RVG for example,is that BN editions (on cd) are much better done before than on later remasterings (end of 90's and begining of the 2000) and I try to buy all my editions from that,prior period of production. Even than, I was never 'happy' with sound of piano and bass on his recordings. I have also a numerous albums from other recordings,from that time and some are better, some worst,you except thema as they are, but, sometimes I try to imagine what they would sound if they were produced in a ECM way or simmilar, aldo I do not prefer neither the artists neither the sound of that house. You cant deny that there is a huge difference in a quality of sound of instruments between modern an old recordings, no matter that old ones have that feeling of intimacy, rawness and presence that modern perhaps lack. If I may joke,  that might be 'good' for potential audiophile because at one point investing in hi fi gear becomes useless because you just cant extract 'informations' that are not there. I have tried almost all editions including BN Sacd's that were mastered by Analogue Productions only to realise that they are just slightly different, maybe not even better, than original BN editions and 'miles'away form the sound of more modern music on Sacd (if done right) Of course, that is only my opinion, based on my experience 

Loosely related to the last few posts.  A pianist that's gotten a few mentions over the years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTPXCsxco3s

Probably a good move 😉.