dropped by to say hello to all of you, 'cause I've been following your
discussions and posts ever since my friend Alex has recommended me this
not be more grateful to him for doing so since I am jazz newbie, shame to say
that I've just recently allowed jazz music to become music genre of my interest ...so this topic is
just what I was hoping to find, it's like having deeper insight into Jazz Wonderland. And I am travelling through time.
you all for this.
wanna bother you any further so will just post something that I like and wish
all of you good year.
you orpheus and pryso for the warm welcome, I appreciate it.
clips are great so will boldly follow your example and post 'a
voice' (but more than just a voice) of a lady whose singing I admire.
me chills every time I listen to this. This song describes, if I am not
mistaken, her life.
I see that you use expression 'jazzy' to describe someone's personality and I kinda
like it and suppose can guess what does it mean but still, if somebody could tell me more about it...
her voice seems like is close to cracking but that doesn't bother me a bit and
from my point of view, what counts is her power to deliver. You may not like
her but surely cannot stay indifferent, 'cause this lady delivers strongly.
As for her personal life that was tightly wrapped up around her singing career, I can
understand that this can bother people and can affect on the way people see her but
could Billie perform the same if she hadn't had the life she had? It seems that
her singing is nondetachable from her personal life. Maybe people like her
precisely because of her 'crack in the voice'. The perfect imperfection.
thank you for the explanation of being 'jazzy'...I can imagine your jazzy
friend. In Croatian language, the word 'jaz' (with one 'z') signify the amount
of distance between the people or it can literary signify the great hole. For
example we say...there is a big 'jaz' (distance, hole) between us.
your friend is slightly distanced towards everybody else and has the mind of
his own, his own and original look or behavior. And that makes him jazzy... :)
I might be a jazz newbie but I am surely not a life newbie. From what I can see, you are trying to ’defend’ Billie (I apologize if I am wrong) as if Billie needs a defender and as if she is unwillingly exposed to the eyes of the foreigner in her sorrow.
I dare to say that Billie does not need a defender. I see her in her performance more stronger than you can imagine. Despite of the fact that I am a foreigner (therefore you surely can understand her better, that I admit), I am also a human that can ’bleed’, like her, with the same blood color.
Also, she performs on the stage and she is perfectly aware of it, yet and in spite of that, she wants to bare her soul in front of the audience by delivering the message that is so intimate for her. Again, that is what artist is for. Work becomes an art once you decide to share it with the world.
I would never call her ’sad case’, ’cause she managed to raise the experience of her tragic life on the different level and was magnificent in it and therefore remained to be great in my eyes, an eyes of a foreigner.
This is not a lecture from me to you, this is just me trying to write down what I think or feel. I know very well that you appreciate Billie. It is not hard to guess that, I do not need right context for that.
Alex, very nice songs, I enjoyed listening...
frogman, thank you for the welcome words and For All We Know, because for all I know, I like it very much.
orpheus, I do not mind Rok speaking like that but that was obviously a moment for a mutual ’rough talk’ like Tina would say, we start (do it) easy and finish rough...
I cannot open your video, is this from Kenny Clark album, so that I can find it on the another link?
I think I should have been more silent...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQKt7DTKyJU
rok, I’ve written down ’this is not a lecture from me to you...’ precisely because I don’t want you to see me as someone who knows so little in jazz but gives you a preach about Bille. But somehow even this upsets you again...what a man...
Anyway, thank you for the link, I have read it, long time ago...
acman3, thank you!
Frogman, when I saw your 4’33" link and the video from Alex, I thought for a sec that my speakers went crazy. ;) You two gave me huge laugh though.
And yes, I am perfectly aware of the fact that intense debate can improve the entire communication and boost everyone’s creativity so do not worry about that. I just do not want to ’hurt’ anybody in the process. :-)
Also, thank you for your words of support, you have so soft and gentle touch in your expressions, as if you play music along. This is you talking:
Few posts before, you have written something what I find very important and what is not to be missed.
„Do an artist’s personal controversies diminish the art?“
Smart people say that an artist personal controversies should not diminish it’s work as long as the work itself does not reflect the possible bad character of an artist or as long as the work itself does not contain the amoral or similar stuff which could be found in the life of an artist. This obviously means that the work of an art can stand for itself and exist almost as a non material human being with it’s own ’life’ that is completely separated from it’s creator.
But still, if you observe things on extreme examples (mild ones are easy to handle), would you think the same? If I take Hitler for instance, could I admire his paintings even if I am aware of his monstrosity at the same time? Certainly not.
Back to music...
„Tryin’ to make it real, compared to what? C’mon baby!“
Wish you all nice day...
orpheus: "Irony of ironies Mary_jo; I don’t guess you knew that you posted one of Rok’s most favorite tunes? Compared to What."
Indeed an irony because I didn’t have a clue. Otherwise I would not post it.
Nice title Rok gave me. Jazz Queen of Croatia. I am impressed.
After few days of conversation he decides to clear the confusion. Wow. The confusion that he started in the first place. What a man.
Clearly I was not trying to mock of Billie and if it sounded like that, I could have been asked to clear the things.
The defense rests it’s case.
I so like it what Orpheus has recently posted on Gene Harris.
And I have gone through Alex’s Don Sleet again, sharing Frogman’s opinion on this one. Very nice.
If beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder, so does music should lie in the ears of the listener.
However, it’s always interesting to observe the way other people see ’my kind of a music’, so the beauty lies in the differences as well.
And thank you Frogman for the kind words again. Croatia is indeed pretty. But pity that Croatian people have forgotten to appreciate and nurture what they have so constant race for profit has overpowered the need of preserving the beauty. Pretty pity.
It’s raining today...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSh11ZzvKOwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOpD8SOAJnM
***A humorous footnote: at 3:50 check out the two saxophone players in the front row with the Bros dancing on their tables. The alto player on screen left is cool as a cucumber. The tenor player on his left is a little freaked out as if saying “Holy sh#t , don’t hit me”***
If the guy who was freaked out, have had a slide saxophone, one could only guess what would have happened to the dancer...
Pity I can’t find the link of the Snub’s ’The man with the funny little horn’...
Noo, do not stop, just keep on joking...
following the recent discussion carefully and find All of you important, he**, even the 'irascible uncle' is important.
I do have my list and haven't mentioned it since I've thought (and still do) that few
would care, I mean, what's newbie has to say, really...
But since you have
brought up the subject, here is the list:
place again by Paul Desmond
Wonderful World of Jazz by John Lewis
Blue by Miles Davis
Guitar by Wes Montgomery
Mercy, Mercy! Live at 'The Club' by Cannonball
Know What I Mean? by
Moon by Art Pepper
Blue by Kenny Burrell
get lost by Chet Baker
Together by Chet Baker
The Legendary Sessions by Chet Baker and Bill Evans
But Beautiful by
Bill Evans and Stan Getz
Ellington & John Coltrane by Duke and John
Coltrane and Johnny Hartman by John and Johnny
Blue Train by Trane
by Dave Brubeck Quartet
I enjoyed both links pryso, thank you and yes you have noticed it well, Chet seems to appear more often on the list I’ve posted. It is not that I do not admire other giants and not that I don’t appreciate other instruments besides the trumpet (after all, the instruments are just the means through which the player’s expression flows) but when I hear a trumpet in jazz, my heart starts to pump a bit faster.
A small child tells to his mother: When I grow up, I will be a trumpeter. A mother responds to him: Well my dear, you know you can’t do both.
And this is how I see Chet when he plays, as an adult man who nurtures his inner child in everything he does, and at some point refusing to grow up. But this is just ’my version of Chet’ of course.
However and as I have already said, this does not prevent me from liking others. For instance, Peppe in his recordings goes beyond words...
I could go on and on...
This is so good, it is bluesy/jazzy. I have to paste it again.
Desmond in blue, have heard it before, great record.
Frogman : ), I was hoping one would not notice it, but it would be almost impossible not to agree with the Alex’s taste in music, since he posts beautiful music.
Once again, thank you all for the support, jafant, thank you too.
I agree with Ps, ’cause a statement that a player is not good just because he or she is unknown to a wider audience is in the best case pure generalization, a stereotype by which one underestimates someone’s work. I’ll quote Ps: "If something is "undiscovered" it is precisely that."
Very nice Stan Getz & Chick Corea, Frogman, thank you. Chick Corea is new to me.
Pryso, Sandoval also new to me...
I was never the fan of Dizzy but if God himself tells me that this is not good:
I would tell him: You are crazy.
(Song: the peak at 5:21 in video)
Can you please tell me who are the other players with Dizzy on this one?
’Cause I always seem to forget to mention other players when mentioning ’the star’ and this is so wrong of me ’cause everybody else in the process contribute in making the main man, main.
I have a friend who share your opinion on this subject. The man is extremely smart, and I have no reason to doubt his mind in general. What I want to say that in 90% of the cases I agree with him on various subjects but sometimes and at some point, I disagree with him. Meaning, even though You are smart, we do not have to agree on everything and not entirely here. There could be somebody worth of knowing but remained unknown for various reasons, there could be somebody who simply does not want to be seen. And last but not least, if this unknown man or a woman played 'one single note' differently than for instance Trane, Miles, Getz, Peppe (and so on), then they would be worth of my attention.
Frogman, ok, good, now I understand you better. Things are much clearer, if not completely.
One more thing:
"Have there been musicians of the artistic caliber of a Satchmo, Bird, Miles, Sonny Rollins, Trane, Bill Evans and, yes, Ornette Coleman, or even the “tier” below (Johnny Griffin) that slipped through the cracks and were never discovered or have been forgotten? Not a chance in hell."
It is as if you are saying: If the unknown one had been good enough (meaning great), we would have heard about him for sure.
And it is also as if we should not ’dig’ any further, ’cause it is already all there what is to listen. I know that you do not mean this but a bit sounded like this. : )
Alex, I think that you haven’t said anything on which Frogman would not agree. Pity you cannot see it. You and Frogman talk the same but just from other perspectives.
p.s. But your last sentence is somehow, unnecessary.
Orpheus, my first intention was to use the word ’magic’ at the end of the sentence "I guess the music does the same..." Instead of me, you used that word several times. And I wanted to post the link you posted but thought that somebody else might do it.
And that is a particular moment in time.
I was following your discussion, great thoughts you have and very interesting links you posted Frogman. I also thought that the use (of course non intentional) of four bars of music is perfectly legal. Must dig more into the subject.
Thank you Frogman for your reply. Louis sings on this one also, as you would say, with the gravel in his voice but notice the quote from Duke Ellington on the beginning of the clip: "He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way."
I haven’t read much of his biography, if you don’t count what I’ve read along the way, but if he has such a reputation, so I admire him more.
On ’new sound and recordings’
I am probably not the right one to make any judgement on this one but looking from my personal perspective (there I can babble as much as I want still staying ’alive’ while doing it), mostly what I hear in ’new jazz’ I find a bit sterile (as if music is too clean). One could say that I haven’t heard much so cannot be competent but still what I hear is that a song sounds as if it could have been completely computer generated without human involvement - this I do not feel when listenin’ ’old jazz’. I guess too much technical work on piece of music kills the fun.
thank you for this recommendation, I remember your post mentioning the concert in San Diego...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGsVqF-URXc
The ’content’ (if you allow yourself to be imaginative) on this one is actually similar to the one of J.J. Cale in his Tijuanahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub1SGEVP6oA
"Just below San Diego
Tijuana, land of broken dreams
Senoritas dancing in the moonlight
Flashing Spanish dark eyes to everyone, it seems
They say "Hey, gringo
Can you take us across the border
Just tell them I’m your daughter
Of a local."
It is just the way of how the musicians express themselves through the music styles, that differs.
Mingus adds on this one the flavor of Spanish flamenco perpetuating Ysabel’s table dance which in a way brings these two songs together if you look upon the lyrics in the work of Cale.
orpheus, have not heard for the particular piece (ain’t that a surprise ;) ), enjoyed very much listening and was intrigued by the title that made me wonder about this 27th Man.
Thank you for posting it.
Another one from Horace, remarkable music if I may say:
Horace Silver - Señor Blues (Horace Silver, Blue Mitchell & Junior Cook) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8jFGFwOm7k
Horace Silver - piano
Blue Mitchell - trumpet
Junior Cook - tenor sax
Gene Taylor - bass
Louis Hayes - drums
How is your health? I hope you feel better...
Irascible uncle (code name E.T.), knows something that the rest of us do not know...posted 'War is coming'. Off I go to buy some groceries just to secure myself up.
jam session! :-)
A few days ago, I read an interesting interview with Goran Tomljenovic, Croatian designer of ultra-high-end loudspeakers and I found in the article some interesting facts that are in some way related to your debate about how different materials affect the sound quality of the saxophone. Goran’s speakers are interesting because they are in principle a horn loudspeaker which as main element uses an acoustic horn, as well as many brass and woodwind musical instruments (link: https://www.facebook.com/Ring-Audio-159138464215165/ ) Those speakers (Ring Audio’s Master Horn Jazz - MH Jazz to acquaintances) are very nice, but also very expensive and cost around 20 thousand US dollars.
Asked if the material was important for sound quality, Goran was very clear. He said that their horn loudspeakers are made of different materials - wood, composite materials, ceramics, ... but it does not matter to the sound quality at all.
Moreover, he emphasized that it is only important that the material from which the horn is made must be, so to speak, “ACOUSTICALLY DEAD”, i.e. for the material itself it is crucial that its resonant frequency is BELOW THE AUDIBLE LEVEL. Also, the material from which the horn is made, must not affect the resonance of the air INSIDE the horn channel.
The only thing that matters to acoustic horn is channel shape, high measuring accuracy, and great precision craftsmanship. This is quite opposite to the many other musical instrument. Usually, the instrument box (body of the instrument) must resonate so that we can hear something at all.
For example, the guitar string causes the soundboard (upper and lower plate) and sound box to vibrate, and they strengthen the vibrations of the strings and amplify sound. With the acoustic guitar, the choice of materials is crucial for the sound quality. For saxophone, the material is not important for the sound quality, this is more important for durability, playability, wear resistance, corrosion resistance, etc. And of course, for seller marketing tricks. Here I must quote Stephen Howard who wisely commented on another forum where there is a similar discussion of whether the material affects the sound quality of sax:
“After decades of comparing otherwise identical horns - the only difference being the body material - I’ve come to the conclusion that the answer to this thorny question is - Yes...but only if you’ve paid more for it". Same as with wine. If the price on the wine bottle is higher, people like it more. Even when all the bottles that they have tested, contain exactly the same wine.
orpheus, I like the hypnotic rhythm of dr. John, I feel like he brings us on the path which we simply cannot resist not to follow till the very end. And then, when we finally feel Gris - Gris anesthetized (he is doctor after all), we are ready to wrap our troubles into dreams: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo7l9FgVN34
*.* blink, blink
I'm glad you like my last post and thanks
for the positive comment. I agree with your opinion that the execution of the design
is very important. Nice example with vintage Louis Lot flutes. Also, I agree
with you that mouthpiece, reed, and ligature can have a significant effect on
the response and sound of the instrument, much bigger effect than, for example,
a silver or gold plating. After all, those parts are sound generating portion
of the instrument.
“However, I doubt that when a player
(Parker) is looking for money for his next fix that he is worried about the
material used for his ligature. He would use tape or a shoestring if he had to.”
When I read this, could not stop laughing
for five minutes. This just might be the truth. When he needed the money for
the next fix, Charlie probably didn’t care much about the whole saxophone, let
alone the ligature. This was probably the reason why he had pawned his
saxophone and replaced it with the cheap plastic Grafton.
One question arises here related to the Grafton
sax. Why did this strange plastic beast die out? Contrary to popular belief, Grafton’s
sax did not die out due to the bad quality of the tone that it’s plastic body
produces. The Grafton had very good musical properties and therefore was played,
as it is mentioned here before, by some of the biggest legends of Jazz, by
Charlie Parker and Ornette Coleman. Although this cheap sax was never intended
to be used as a professional instrument, it found its way into the professional
'hall of fame' and that was probably much more than the designer could have ever
hoped for. The main reason that these horns disappeared so quickly was in their
fragility and unreliability and they were extremely difficult to repair - very
little seems to want to stick to plastic body. Grafton visionary sax was made
of a plastic that had little better impact-resistance than a wine glass. It was
made from acrylic plastic and it is one of the most brittle plastic ever made. Grafton
designer selected this type of plastic not because this material had some
special musical properties but simply because it was cheap, and it was easy to
work with. Here I have to quote again woodwind repairer Mr. Stephen Howard - TheSaxDoctor:
“There are no any mystical properties of
the body material…………. it really doesn't matter what the body is made from -
rather it's because the flaws in the construction knacker the tone. With much
blood, sweat and tears (and a considerable amount of swearing) I can get a
Grafton to play so well that it's indistinguishable from a decent brass alto.”
And that's exactly what I wanted to say in
the last post. The material from which the sax-body is made of is far less
important than the sax - manufacturers try to convince us.
Ale, thank you for posting more of Hawes...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkvkePuzSzg
Orpheus, I am very glad that you like Mona Ki Ngi Xica...
Pryso, haven’t noticed that, maybe I have just missed it or registered myself much later. Will surely check that and get back to you afterwards.
Since we are shortly on this track, due to link of Alex...
“It is not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize, accept, and celebrate those differences.”
― Audre Lorde
Billie, Strange Fruit...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Web007rzSOI
There where people abandon us, music starts...
pryso, I am lost in the translation. I was browsing through the thread a lot but was not able to find the reference to the Buena Vista Social Club...(I've been following you since last December)
"Two many great white rock and roll artist for that to
be true. Elvis, Early Beatles, Elton John etc...."
True but that was obviously just a phrase.
However, don't let the cover of their skin mislead you.
"Rock&Roll, as I have said before, was mainly about
teenage life and love. Everything from
fast cars to broken hearts to slow drag at the prom."
So what? That's life too. And when we grow old, we sometimes
act like kids again. So what? That's life again with it's ups and downs.
„Rock was always political in nature. The anti music. Violent and cynical. Without Viet Nam and the civil rights
violence, it's possible there would have been no such thing as Rock.“
I think pryso explained that.
„It was not a happy or uplifting music. All your clips show this.“
Nor Jazz is always happy music.
I see Rock in a way our lives are and Jazz in a way our lives should be. I cannot explain that. Let's just say that Rock is 'too rocky' and Jazz is exactly how it should be.
have noticed it well, Child in time from Deep Purple borders with heavy metal. I
haven't thought about this before since the song stays long enough in the range
of the hard rock which is ok for me since I am not fan of the heavy metal. But you
are quite 'an Ear', it seems that hardly anything can pass beyond your radars.
I am glad you like Carlos Santana. This might be latino rock which is kind of
'soft' in the comparison to the mainly 'hard listing' of mine. I mostly picked rock with strong accent on the guitar and a bit aggressive vocal due
to uncle's comment about the rock of being too noisy.
definitely has a touch. You surely have a well cared style.
Black magic woman
man, that was absolutely great post, I enjoyed very much reading. You know the stuff. Nothing to add nor subtract there.
You have said it all.
the world (music) exclusively according to one's own preferences and seeing it
through one's eyes only, would be leastwise, boring not to say limited.
you not to love this:
Pepper, The Prisoner
Sam McClain - When The Hurt Is Over
at the same time
Dylan - Knockin' On Heaven's Door
Hmmm mk2 what? The first link of Santana that Orpheus listed was ’soft’ in comparison to my hard rock listing (if i do not count Beatles). Soft does not mean less good but means less hard, you wise guy.
As the answer that you 'requested':
There is nothing wrong with my listing of rock. If you think that you know better, just check Frogman’s post about it. You obviously skipped it.
Billy the Kid aka Alex, told me that you had asked for me. Frogman and pryso, that was very kind of you.
I haven’t ran away but had some private issues that kept me occupied quite well so I needed to focus on that. However, I didn’t forget you, you surely had hiccups (yes, that was from me), ’cause I was lurking you whenever I catched some free time. Great songs you all post + you give these songs your personal touch just by the way you posting them here. Quite enjoyable to read and listen, I’ll say.
Yesterday, my friend told me that she had a dream about me having a small and cozy hotel in the center of New York. So, since she dreamed about this, this must have been the truth - tonight we are having special guests in our hotel club and of course, you are all invited. : )
Dress Code, back to 50’s...so give us your best and do not forget to shine your shoes.
Sinatra and Louis Armstrong Birth of the Blues https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd_JDrnBMMA
Louie and the Moon River
"Two drifters, off to see the world
There’s such a lot of world to see
We’re after the same rainbow’s end, waitin’ ’round the bend
My huckleberry friend, moon river, and me ..."
:) ok, i’ll take your word for it.
So O-10 is a dancer? Few moves are barely enough (:)) but now, when you have mentioned this, his writing style on this forum ’reminds me’ of him as if wearing a suit for dancing, showing the elegancy while moving smoothly along the dance floor. He has something special.
p.s. sorry, can’t picture him in a tribe...:)
Thank you for asking for me, for the great clips and for the „ Stairway to the stars“...
Being among the stars we may as well jump a bit on the Moon...
Kenny Burrell – Moon And Sand
*Wish you all nice day*
„Women are uniquely different from men, although I don't understand the difference, I appreciate it. Mary Jo, your selections display that difference in a way I can only listen and reflect on; they give us the feminine view of jazz.“
Maybe you intuitively feel that I am postin' the songs according to my emotions at the present moment so you call it 'feminine view of jazz' which is quite an interesting insight, dare to say. : )
And later you posted Nina Simone, who I also see as a strong and a striking singer with should I say a bit 'masculine' attitude. Quite good balance you gave me here.
Nina - You'll Never Walk Alonehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqdyI570pMo
Appreciating pryso's testosterone - less orchestra (beautiful for eyes and ears) and following the nsp' latino rhythm but with testosterone - full orchestra:
Dusko Gojkovic and friends, Quo Vadis Samba
By the way, Dusko played with Chet Baker, Stan Getz, Oscar Pettiford, Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, Gerry Mulligan and many others...
Taking the break from samba with Dusko Gojkovich and 'Ballad For Miles'
Happy listening jafant. : )