So I’m trying to understand why so many people think klipsch or horn speakers are bright
I have two set up garage and living room both with horn speakers EPIC CF4 garage and and KLF 30 mahogany living room
I have recorded this songs with my iPhone listen to them and feel free to tell me what you don’t like about them by the way I don’t have any room treatment
Crazy as it was, my first serious upgrade was to buy a pair of new Klipsch Lascalas II. Immediately they were hooked up to an inferior system. Cambridge receiver, cheap CD player, stock cabling. As the last few years have passed I've replaced each link with an upgrade I could afford. The Klipsch's revealed clearly each change and revealed the capabilities of those horns. Also they painfully told me there was more to change. Many times I thought the particular issue was the speakers themselves only to find out later the real issue was poor interconnects or whatever...Unfortunately I made conclusions about the Lascala's limitations only to disprove that with another upgrade. I'm sure Lascalas do have their inherit foibles. Like in my yurt (a tent house) few speakers will be able to produce any impactful bass as their are no solid walls. Kinda like setting your speakers in an acoustically open field. SVS sub (SB2000 pro) cured that. My tube amp (Raven Blackhawk) has a soft hum which with Klipsch efficiency at 104 @ 1 watt can drive you crazy until Mad Scientist disks. Now the hum is barely detectable. (In between songs, at night) So if one hears about the nature of Klipsch horns remember, they are like spoiled women. They tell you everything they hate quick and yet can grant you an evening of euphoria you'll not soon forget!
I just posted the video above of Viking Acoustic dual horn speakers with Scan Sonic Drivers. The song is Anette Askvik - Liberty.
The video below is with new SEAS of Norway drivers and tweeters and features Nils Lofgren's Bass N Drums. Take a listen if you have headphones or just listen.
Obviously, I am biased but I do not think these horn speakers are too bright.
It is detail, dynamics and an engaging sound at low volume that is the hallmark of good horn-based systems. Just because they tend to be big in size does not mean they have to be played loud. The ability to play softy is why these giant systems are more commonly found in tiny Japanese apartments than is the case here.
I tend to measure how good is a particular component not by how it sounds when the volume is up, but how it sounds at low volume--the lower you can go and still get satisfying sound, the better the component.
Waytoomuchstuff brings up a real positive about horns when he mentions low level detail. I have never heard another speaker type that does this as well as horns. When at Tri's house, I was shocked by this single aspect of his system.
I've worked my way through Magepans and Thiels and am now running Klipsch Forte iv's. Quite a change from power hungry speakers. The Forte's are, to me, much more dynamic and live sounding with no harshness.
Several people have said it. Horns need good gear to sound good, just like with any other speakers.
Not saying my gear is great but I like this setup with the Forte's: PS Audio PWT, Mojo Mystique B4B DAC, Don Sachs DS2, and First Watt F7.
It's hard for me to say because I get notably different impressions of the sound as you move the microphone small amounts. The very beginning audience clapping sounds very different, I'll say that.
I can say for sure that over my computer speakers, the opening guitar introduction sounds better to me on the original drivers. A little more dynamic and the timbre sounds more real.
Yep, above posts state very well the need to optimize full system to hear full potential of horns. I've heard horns sound absolutely shouty and furthest thing from natural to absolutely sublime, every single aspect of system matters with extreme level of resolution, transparency available with horns.
From the very first time I heard completely stock Klipschorns in my system I knew they had potential to be last speaker for me. For me the Khorns have been like a blank canvas on which I could assemble or draw a subjectively perfect work of art. Apart from components, every single little part I've changed out in multiple components, therefore, wire, capacitors, inductors, resistors has been chosen to best present an easy to believe illusion of live performers in room. Horns are amazing in this regard!
The big Klipsch's will never fully take on the character of a polite British loudspeaker. But, who want them to?
As stated in this forum, horns are unforgiving of "mid-fi" and will confidently reveal the warts promenent in lesser systems. For the adventurous, many of the modification listed here pay big sonic dividends. In my decades of providing performance upgrades to Klipsch speakers (RB51s -> K'Horns) it is our view that improving the integrity of the signal path yields better bang-for-the-buck gains than component upgrades. i.e. Use the same (or, better) cabing you use from amp to speaker for all internal cabling in the speaker. Eliminate spades, lugs, terminal strips, etc. -- siliver solder every connection.
I find the great irony of high efficiency horn speakers is just how good they sound at LOW volume levels. Just above the threshold of hearing they deliver: dynamic impact, detail, microdynamics, bandwidth, and spacial information. Nothing else comes close.
Sadly, I was not exposed to mid and low level horns in serious hifi setting. Although I'm not sad about it, neglecting and not playing around with mid-level stuff.
My experience goes for VOTT & few other other Altecs, all in seriously "spruced up" shapes by audiophiles with massive audio life experience and refined systems that driver those speakers. In addition, my own experience with Altec 515/288 and a University coaxial horn driver.
So, based on these experiences I can tell that nothing reveals the state of your electronics, and also the skill of the crossover and cabinet designer as well as horns do. Even minute changes show up very big time and give a potent reflection of what is going on.
It is more than convenient to blame the horns for all shortcomings in a system, as most speakers tend to throw a benign blanket even over severe flaws.
How do I know this?
When you voice your system with highly evolved horns, then other speakers will be able to deliver their highest potential as well, or reveal their flaws, which, when corrected, will elevate them quite a bit.
Horns are the ultimate frontier. I do not recommend to play around with them unless the rest of the system is already optimized to a very high level. Also, you HAVE TO play around with them. The ain't plug 'n pray. You need to invest serious time to optimize them - or your system. Is it worth it? Yes. It's a paradigm shift.
Horn loaded speakers are generally so efficient that it’s critical that whatever amp you’re driving them with needs to sound good in the first few to maybe 30 watt peaks. Many solid state amps don’t unless they stay in class “A” mode throughout this range.
I’ve owned a few Avant-garde’s & now Volti Audio Rivals. Set up properly with good quality electronics & source, they all sound excellent. They don’t have the most extended & airy top end than newer , good & expensive dome or AMT tweeters can offer w/ heroic amplification & maybe not the ultimate in sound stage depth but not harsh or shouty at all. The dynamics of course, are unmatched by anything other than live music.
Good horn loaded speakers can sound “live” vs really good “hi fi” for just about all other speaker designs imo. I prefer live sound.
I have a pair of Horns by Autotech Atmosphere MK2 and find them soft. Extremely detailed but just a little too soft for my liking in my living room. However, for smaller rooms, I'd say they're near perfect for my needs. No fatigue or harshness whatsoever.
Comparing the sound of your recordings to the direct file of the same music on headphones I get the impression of a lack of vocal presence, too much bass and highs. In my own experience I've found this can sound very nice on some music and especially at lower volumes.
I bought crites sight unseen. I use Pass Xa25 with Khozmo passive. If the system is harsh, it is the recording. However, I am talking about checking out crossover updates.
I’m not going to do anything to them just removing from inside the speakers in others to do the bracing properly or maybe it will be easy to work around it
actually I removed my CF4 V2 crossover and send it Crites to rebuild it
This is the main event in my speaker system. I can not allow even 1 tiny complaint about how this speaker performs.
Sadly not avaliable any longer. I bought one of the few remaining pairs some 2 yrs ago, He continues to list his VX6 which is near the perf of the VX8.
You'll have to try AER for a option. Might be better, might be worse, Can't say. Other alternatives are Voxativ and Cube.
’Bright’ is subjective. ’Fatigue’ is another factor.
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Oh come on, Lets all tag snakeoil when we hear it. Bright, screechy, steel-y, harsh, attacking, name it as you wish, It all amounts to one great enemy The Fatigue Factor.
There is not 1 woofer in the world that has not given my listening exp TFF. Woofers struggle to voice above 1800hz. Which means , and you can read this evident fact on every Troel Gravensen' page~~~That the tweeters have to carry the 1600 to 3500hz load. Then miraculously have enough energy, stamina to voice 3500 to who knows where.
Yeah I bought into the woofer+ tweeter things for decades. Thats all we knew down here in New Orleans 1970's We did not have access to many audio shops, WE had rat Shak til SoundTrek opened. Its was a wall of Woofer/Twweter speakers.
I chose Philips, thought the world of that speaker. 2 way, should have gone for the 3 way, but did not want too forward a blaring midrange driver.
,,After experiementations some yrs ago, it was mind blowing to see and hear the snakeoil in woofers trying to voice classical music at under 89db ses.
Next to a 91db Full range, 6 incher, single, no tweeter A MTM vs a Single 6.
Single 6, although crappy sound, blew the MTM with 1 clean shot 1st few seconds,. No contest in that shootout.
Never looked back.
My tech refuses to understand the FR exp vs a woofer/Tweeter exp. Sure I emply dual T's. Adds a bit of beautiful ambience, but only kicks in at 4khz. Tweeters are not made for large orchestra below 4k hz, Stress out, distort.
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Horns are wayyyyyy too sens for my taste, needs. I can not accept any speaker that attacks, And trust me, horns are **inyourface** which makes for fatgue.
I guess is extreme SPL is your thing, then yeah horns might be your cup of tea. Over 95db sens, you will lack low end with a massive wall of midrange.
The only speakers I know that fit the yask of perfect db sens, are FR, at 92db-95db.
There is not one weakness I can hear in a higher end FR within this parimeter. **missing the lower bass range**
oh lets get real, bogus complaint. Give up a few hz's for glorious fq's throughout the entire musical register.
My guess is FR will become the speakers of choice, which revolution has been going on quite some time in some parts of asia. DHT's + FR, match made in heaven.
Its going to take some time before this realization takes place here in the states. And we all know the why's to that Q.
Paul
The FR Guy
New Orleans
That is very interesting lordrootman. I have read on other Epic mod threads about changing to the Electro Voice compression driver, and although I knew that it needed additional bracing, I never heard anyone say that they altered the crossover, even Moray James, the king of Epic mods.
I am going to have my Viking Acoustic Grande Voix Dual horn updated in a couple of weeks to include new drivers, Super tweeters, and caps. I should do a before and after video,
With Moon P8 and W8 I hear zero noise from tweeters with my ears touching it lol
I have own McIntosh C52 Michi P5 Parasound JC2 P6 Hint6 ROTEL RC1590 Classe CP800 SSP800 and more still P8 is my favorite Michi P5 ROTEL 1590 is worse Preamp ever owned
this new horn drivers don’t require any modifications
Electro Voice compression need a lot of work to make it fit including bracing take all the woofers crossover and everything out little too much for me especially with two years old twins around me 95% of the time 😂😂😂
this B&C was recommended by a friend who try it and blow his mind
the changes from original to B&C is bigger than any DAC , cables, PC and AMPS i have try with the exception of my Moon P8 Preamp
I listened to both versions twice, but of course it's hard to tell on computer speakers, almost a joke. I did perceive a difference though. The original presented the vocal as slightly softer and more diffuse while the new driver seemed a bit more sharply focused.
I'm curious as to why you chose that driver as I see that many that modify the Epics use an older Electro Voice compression driver. Had you considered that also?
I own Klipsch Lascalas II. They sound divine IN MY ROOM. WITH MY GEAR. I couldn't imagine them in the typical home with sheetrock, wood slab floors, glass windows everywhere. And then drive them with SS amps and I would want to sit on that pole someone suggested. They will painfully reveal room and gear mismatches. However, pristine tube power and an acoustically nearly dead room and pure magic. (I live in a yurt with a wall of books behind me in a half circle) The ceiling is fabric, as are the walls. I've put the 175 pound monsters up on isolation pads. The sub (SVS SB2000 Pro) sits on a suspension rig to keep it isolated, Raven Blackhawk, Yamaha S2100 CD player in the rack also free suspended from all vibration. Ladies and Gentlemen, synergy is everything. Room, cabling, interconnects, fuses, tweeks all add up to happy days here in the sweet spot. Klipsch Lascalas are mellow fine companions for this old audiophile.
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