I would not think that this should happen if your dedicated lines are on a separate circuit from your furnace. It appears to result from a power draw down or interruption on the line when the furnace requires power. I am going to let more experienced electricians than myself answer further but it would seem to me that the lines should be isolated from each other.
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Yeah, the other strange thing (to me at least) is that both amps are on the same 20 amp dedicated circuit. Making me think it should effect both amps and speakers???? Although, I agree with your statement that a dedicated circuit should be seperate from the furnace line. Also it is strange that I have never experienced this before with my previous amps and this is the only thing that I have changed.
Except for I used Analysis Plus balanced interconnects before. Now that I am using the Genesis m60s which are unbalanced I am using a cheap pair NXG rca cables. Until my Shunyata Antares ICs get here hopefully sometime in the middle of this coming week.
Could these cheap interconnect be picking up this interference? I am thinking probably not, but just trying to go over what has changed in my system now that I am getting this strange issue.
I would confirm that the lines are indeed "dedicated". Did you do this, or did an electrician do it? Many times, electricians that I've spoken to, after hearing my requirements and specific goals, proceed to tell me how easy it will be to tap into this line or that line, not having listened, or understood what I meant by "dedicated line".
Electricians, like other professionals, seem to poo-poo the goals and the reasons for which they've been hired by a client. (I work in the medical field and see this often).
So check to see if your requirements have been met.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
I am wiring a cabin right now and have been reviewing my electrical book with this issue in mind. The house curcuits are all tied together at the main breaker panel so spikes, surges and noise generated within the house can move between them. This agrees with experience in my current cabin. I wonder if making sure the dedicated line is on the opposite panel bus (110V leg) from your furnace or noisiest 110V appliances in general would provide the needed isolation, or if the neutral bus would still allow contamination of the other circuits. 220V appliances are connected to both busses so there may be no escape there. Also, the book says that surge protection mounted at the main panel will deal with spikes generated within the house. Is there a conditioner/filter that could be connected at the panel to deal with noise in general?
Well so far from what I have seen is that my dedicated circuits are both on the same side of the panel as the furnace is. I do have a gas furnace so the breaker for the furnace is 110. As a last resort I can look into putting the furnace breaker on the other side of the panel. (Is this what you were referring to Nosnhoj???)
Also one other thing to note is that my ground bars in my breaker are full and there is more than one ground in each one, including both dedicated circuits for my audio setup.
I have also switched my amps to the other dedicated circuit that is installed, and now the clicking noise the furnace starting is now coming through the opposite speaker.
So what if I use a 2 prong adapter and I find out that the problem is gone then how do I really fix this problem as I do not want to permanently use one of these adapters.
yeah, I actually did install them myself. by confirming the lines are dedicated, yes I believe they are.
I installed 2 20amp breakers, connected to each breaker is a run of 12/2 romex, then connected to a pair of hospital grade duplex's.
Like I said before all has been fine with my previous amps since I installed the 2 dedicated lines 4-5 months ago, and this just started yesterday when I hooked up these amps.
Strange that you didn't hear this with the prior amps.
I had exactly the same furnace ignition 'click' with my dedicated circuits. It is the grounds which are contaminated, they feed household garbage through the ground.
The only cure that I know of is dedicated ground for the dedicated circuit. Be aware this can be dangerous in lightning storms as ground potential differs between whole house ground and dedicated ground. Maybe lifting ground on amps will solve as well.
Except for I used Analysis Plus balanced interconnects before. Now that I am using the Genesis m60s which are unbalanced I am using a cheap pair NXG rca cables.
Are the NXG rca cables shielded? Try another pair of ics that are shielded.
Like I said before all has been fine with my previous amps since I installed the 2 dedicated lines 4-5 months ago, and this just started yesterday when I hooked up these amps.
Could be these amps are more sensitive to RF interference than the other amps.
The ignition spark on the furnace is high voltage and generates airborne RFI. It is also possible the HV spark ignitor is sending RFI back through the equipment grounding conductor of the branch circuit that feeds the furnace. When was the last time you had your furnace checked out? You might call someone out and have it serviced and have them check the ignition controller and the ignitor for a possible loose or corroded ground connection.
Well I have no idea about my particular nxg cables, I cant find any info about these exact ones and they are prob about 5-6 years old so no telling. I see there are some new ones that are shielded that are prob the newer models of the ones I am using.
As far as the furnace goes, it is 5-6 months old, I just had it put it.
I also tried to lift the ground on both of the amps, this did not work either. I guess the thing I will do next is just wait for my new interconnects which will be here soon and I will see if that fixes the problem, (hopefully soon).
Cables are not going to fix this issue, picking up RFI from the furnace is the longest of long shots, and they didn't do it with the other amp, should tell you something. Ground potential is somehow different with new amps, I don't know why.
I can just about guarantee you, lift the ground on dedicated circuits at AC receptacle, noise will stop and your system will take a nice leap forward. Also be aware this is dangerous, only a temporary means to determine the ground is indeed the problem.
Hospital outlets have an isolated ground. The wire going to it should be 3 conductor plus ground. Black is hot, White is common, Red with green tape added is ground to the outlet and the copper wire is for bonding to the metal outlet box. If you used 2 conductor with ground and did not use a metal box then you may not be grounded correctly.
Remove the outlets and put a regular outlet in. This may help. It is a waste if you use isolated grounded outlet and do not use the correct wire. Tube amps will have issues with bad grounds more than solid state. You could also try cheater plugs and see if the solves your issue.
Also on your breaker box, as you count down on the each side of the breaker box every other breaker is the opposite side of power. Breakers on the left side, 1 is 1 side of 208 and breaker 3 is the other side and the same for the right side 2 is one side and 4 is the other this is so if you put in a 2 pole breaker you get 208. Your breakers for your amps should be on the oposite line from your furnace. There is a thread in Tech that shows the inside of a breaker box and how it is wired for power to be on the same side.
The furnace is still covered under manufacture warranty for parts and labor. Give the furnace company that installed the furnace a call and tell them you are experiencing a problem with the furnace. LOL, no need to mention you didn't have the problem with the other amps. They may have an AC line filter they can install on the furnace. At any rate they will check to make sure the ignition controller and ignitor is making a good ground connection to the metal frame work of the furnace.
I am using hospital grade outlets with romex 12/2 so I obviously did not wire them how you are suggesting to. Do you have to wire all audiophile grade outlets like this, or do you wire them like a standard outlet?
Oh, and I have also put the cheater plug on both amps and the clicking is still there.
I also used a plastic blue box for old work, so I am not able to ground to that.
So if you do not think that cables will make a difference, I will go get some standard outlets to start with and see how that goes.
03-28-09: SnsSns, do you have a battery operated radio? If so set the band to AM and tune in a weak radio station. Go to where your furnace is located and have the wife turn up the stat to call for heat. When the ignitor starts bet you will hear it over the radio. Guess what? The radio shares no power or ground with the furnace whats so ever..... Airborne RFI.
I am not saying Tmesselt's problem is caused by airborne RFI, but it is a possibility.
We know one thing for sure at this point.
With the old amps and old ics there was not any problem.
A little hard to blame it on the dedicated branch circuit wiring at this time.
For a test I would like Tmesselt to try the ground cheaters on the amps. If that stops the clicking sound of the ignitor then the problem can be solved at the furnace.
Jea, I can only go by my experience, exactly the same problem, dedicated ground fixed it and a nice sonic boost to match.
I'm also not saying it can't be RFI, just a long, long shot. He didn't have the problem with the other amps and same cable, points to amps as problem. It could be the other amps did a better job of filtering out EMI and RFI.
I just think dedicated grounds are the resolution to all these sorts of problems, I'm not alone, many are using dedicated grounds.
I can also understand why lifting the grounds on amps has no effect. I surmise the garbage is riding on grounds through rest of system. Was always there, other amps may have had better filtering or ground potential has changed. Again, lifting the grounds temporarily at AC outlets will tell if grounds are the issue. Everything is just speculation until this probability is eliminated.
If the outlet is hospital grade or isolated ground it must be wired as I said before. The differance between an isolated ground and non isolated is that the outlet ground and the ground screw are connected to each other only and not to the metal section that hold the outlet to the box, non isolated outlets the three are connected to each other. If you used an old work plastic box there is no bonding of the grounds and is not LEGAL and you could get hurt. I would change the outlet to a good regular outlet or get a metal box and a pair of ears for old work and replace it, I would do the box myself if it were me, you must srcew the ground to the box for good contact.
Doing this will defeat the reason to use an isolated outlet. How hard would it be to replace the wire? If you paid for this to be done it is wrong & the electrician should redo it. If not tell him you will ask an inspector to check it. You could also try a sub panel and run a seperate ground. This would be best.
As far as your furnace gos. I would make sure your equipment is on the opposite side and fed first. Equipment top breaker 1 & 5 right side 2 & 6 left side furnace as low as you can go in panel. I do not know how many breakers fit in your box or the type so I cannot tell you any more. I always feed furances and a/c unit at the bottom of the box for power and connect the ground as close to the ground wire as I can or I add sub panel.
This could also be because your furnace is not wired correcly by the way.
Talk to a local electrician they will know more of your local code. What state are you in?
I recommend you do not try the sub panel yourself or any of this for that matter it can get tricky.
The most fundamental difference between now and when the problem was not present, aside from the different amps, is that previously there were balanced connections, and now there are single-ended connections.
As Jim's "myths" link makes clear, the shields of single-ended interconnects, while serving as the return path for signals that are transmitted between the connected components, also conduct extraneous currents caused by ac ground differentials between the components (since the shields tie together the chassis of the components, which in turn are connected to both signal ground and ac safety ground). The common path causes coupling of ac-related noise into signal, since the receiving component has no way of distinguishing between the two. Balanced interfaces are a completely different story, and are essentially immune to this kind of effect.
So my first suggestion, if you have not already tried it, would be to connect EVERY component in the system to the SAME dedicated line, to minimize ground offsets between the components.
Beyond that, it IS very conceivable to me that a better quality interconnect would help, because it would presumably (although not necessarily) have lower shield resistance, which would tend to "short out" voltage offsets between the chassis of the connected components. As well as providing better immunity to airborne rfi.
First, ensure the pilot assembly and ignition module are grounded. The pilot can be grounded by using a double insulated or bare, solid copper wire from a mounting screw directly to the "GND" terminal on the module, if so equipped, otherwise to chasis. You can also ground the neutral side of the 24V transformer.
If that doesn't work, consider an isolation transformer.
If you put the previous amps back in place and the problem is gone I would blame the Genesis amps. Like I said, not necessarily that they are malfunctioning, but that they just don't filter out issues with your AC. Maybe they are just more susceptible to noise on the AC line.
I have had amps that showed quirks where others did not.
BTW, what did you do with the Ref1000s?
Well, due to the fact that I was not wiring the isolated ground correctly I switched out my outlets to a standard 20amp outlet and the clicking is still there, but at least it is connected correctly.
As far as the Ref1000s I sold them along with the balanced ICs that went with them to fund the purchase of the Genesis and my new ICs which have not gotten here yet.
As far as my house ground, I just had that installed a few months ago also, he drove a stake in the ground and also grounded to my water main.
So, now I am at a crossroads, the clicking is not all that bad, can this power do harm? Is it possible that this power that is causing this clicking thru my speakers is also causing a degradation in my overall sound quality (even when the furnace is not starting up?) I say this because it is possibly something I can live with for a bit.
On the other hand, I have contacted my electrician who has not gotten back to me yet, but what would I want him to do?
Run a subpanel with just my audio equipment on it with its own dedicated ground??? Would this have to be another stake drove into the ground??
Also I just unplugged my ICs, so all that was hooked up was speaker wire and power to the Genesis amps and the clicking was still there so even though the ICs were a long shot they are no also ruled out.
I really want to thank everyone for their input, it is very nice of you all.
03-28-09: TmesseltIf the receptacles are isolated ground recepts you could have left them in.... NEC requires if an isolated ground type receptacle is used with a plastic box the cover plate has to be made of a non conductive material... Plastic, Nylon, wood, ect....
Run a subpanel with just my audio equipment on it with its own dedicated ground??? Would this have to be another stake drove into the ground??Dedicated ground? A dedicated earth ground for the sub panel that is not connected to the main grounding electrode system of your home?
Don't do it. And if your friend is a licensed electrician he won't do it.
Also I just unplugged my ICs, so all that was hooked up was speaker wire and power to the Genesis amps and the clicking was still there so even though the ICs were a long shot they are no also ruled out.Did you install shorting plugs on the inputs of the amps?
Call the people who installed the furnace.
I am no Ham Radio Operator but if one has been following this thread they might chime in. If the ignition module or ignitor is not bonded, grounded, properly to the frame of the furnace a resistance will exist between the ground of the module/ignitor and the grounded furnace chassis. This can amplify the transmitting RFI of the ignitor.. A transmitting antenna.
Ngjockey, am I correct in my thinking?
Popping sounds are caused by arc faults. People hear them through speakers when turning on a light switch also.
Have the electrician check the wiring connections from the boiler ignitor to the control panel. There should be a black and a white wire from the ignitor to the boiler control box (120 volt). Sounds like you may have a loose connection. That sound you hear is from an electrical arc that is caused by a space between the wires and the connectors. The loose connection is either at the ignitor or the control box.
Also have him check all the boiler wiring from the boiler shutoff, to the 24 volt transformer and to the boiler control panel. It is also possible that the ignitor itself is bad. Or it's possible that the neutral or ground at the boiler switch is reversed. Or worse, the neutral is bonded to the ground screw. Just have him check everything - sometimes Joe the Boiler Man does his own wiring.
If that's not the case, have the electrician check to see that the boiler wiring is not "borrowing" a neutral (he'll know what that means). If it is, then a dedicated circuit for the boiler wiring may solve the problem.
So my first move should be to my furnace company? (This is somewhat overwhelming for me as so my responses with different advice have all came in) But afterall the furnace would more than likely be a free service call due to the fact that it is so new, and then just figure it out from there.
Also I have checked the furnace ground. They grounded it to the gas line that runs right next to it, then there is another ground coming from the panel, inside the furnace there is a wire nut connecting these 2 grounds to the actual ground for the furnace. All of those connections seem to be in correct.
Could any of this be caused by double tapping my ground bar in my panel??
Or it's possible that the neutral or ground at the boiler switch is reversed. Or worse, the neutral is bonded to the ground screw. Just have him check everything - sometimes Joe the Boiler Man does his own wiring.
I have noticed that on my panel I dont really have a neutral bar and a ground bar I just have ground/neutral bar where they are both plugged into. Ground and neutral wires are not separated.
Do they need to be separate?
Tim: disconnecting the audio input interconnects from the amps tells you the amps themselves are picking up the "clicks". Could be incoming via the AC power, or could even be airborne RFI from the furnace highvoltage arc. You already switched to the opposite AC phase which is a good thing to try. A high current AC line isolation transformer may or may not help, but you could try that if you're committed to keeping the tube equipment.
Ensure that the furnace is well grounded. You might try running a temporary ground cable draped across the floor, directly from your distribution panel to the furnace chassis. You could also try connecting a 30uF 400VAC filter capacitor across the AC Hot to Neutral at the furnace (available at your local electrical supply house) which won't cost much and is easy to do. Ferrite filter rings (such as Audioquest sells) placed around the AC line conductors at the furnace and/or at the panel on the dedicated power circuit feeding your amps is also inexpensive & easy to try.
I am not surprised that tube equipment would do this because tubes have extremely high input impedance, making them highly noise susceptible. The BelCanto's being solid state are current mode devices which are far more noise immune. Your only fix may be to eliminate the tubes, which is certainly what I would do.
You make no mention of AC line conditioning which might be a viable cure; borrow a line conditioner to try it. Some listeners don't care for line conditioners on amps, but there are high current models available that won't adversely affect your sonics. I use line conditioning on my whole rig, not only for noise supression but also for AC line transient protection. Catastrophic experiences with lightning damage have previously resulted from my not using any protection in the past; repairs are quite costly not to mention long downtime.
I have a "Chang 9900 Amp" high current 20 amp AC line conditioner sitting here unused if you want to try that let me know via email.
Up here, we don't require the gas line to be bonded unless it's underground. In the States, NEC (250) and Fuel Gas regs are a little confusing and ridiculous, but it certainly doesn't hurt to do so. The gas line can't be used AS the ground. Neither should the water line.
"Joe the boiler guy" probably knows more about the control wiring than an electrician. Can't be wired backwards, depends on a rectified signal to prove pilot.
Jea48: It's more likely that the thousands of volts in the spark are polluting the AC, dedicated line or not, than creating RFI.
I know not all hospital outlets are not isolated. Most people here who are installing hospital grade are doing it for the isolated ground and unless wired correctly it will not be or can hurt someone. When an electician or home owner installs it and does not use the correct wire it is a waste of time & money. You must bond grounds.
If the receptacles are isolated ground recepts you could have left them in.... NEC requires if an isolated ground type receptacle is used with a plastic box the cover plate has to be made of a non conductive material... Plastic, Nylon, wood, ect....
For insolated ground outlets in Mass you can not use 2 conductor with a ground that is connected to other devices it also defeats the purpose. The ground wire must be insolated all the way back to the panal. If the bare ground is used it must be in a metal enclosure. Either purchase three wire no ground or 3 wire with ground and use metal boxes or cut the ground off and tape it.
How old is your house and the develepment. Most new house the gas and electrical are plastic not metal. The piping to your house could be plastic also so grounding to them will do nothing. In that case the electrician puts 2 rods in the ground 6 feet from each other for house ground. This has been an issue here in Mass and else where and do not know if it has been resolved. For now we do both just to be safe and pass inspection.
Like i said before it could be your furnace wiring. I myself have found a few wired backwards it still work cause its 115. The motor or most anything 115 volt does not care if you connect the blacjk wire to common and the white wire to hot it will still work it is just not correct. It could also be your ignitor has a loose ground. Have your service company check the wiring to make sure all parts are in phase. It could be just the control transformer output grounded on the wrong side.
This is why I am thinking line reactor for my equipment.
I have not read all of the responses, so I may be repeating what has already been said. Many ignition systems use a high voltage gas tube spark gap to insure ignition.It creates noise just like a spark plug would in your car. The noise has always been there but the Bel Canto had built in line filtering that eliminated the noise. You can purchase filters, from Mouser or any other supply house which might do the job for you. They come in different current ratings and must be wired for your need. The one I have in front of me is ten amps, it's a metal box 2"x1.5"x1.5" It has the internal component stamped on the out side of the box, it filters both sides of the 120 volts.If you have any question you can e-mail me. The info on the filter is SRE
Along the lines of what Jea48 said in an earlier post, disconnecting the interconnects from the inputs is not conclusive unless you put shorting plugs on them. Especially considering the M60's high input impedance (250 Kohms), it seems conceivable that the inputs are picking up airborne rfi and then amplifying it.
If you don't have shorting plugs handy, you could take rca cables (the shorter the better), plug them into the inputs, and at their other end stuff in some aluminum foil so that it shorts the center pin and the outer (ground) part of the connector together. Obviously, have the power off while you are doing that.
I know not all hospital outlets are not isolated. Most people here who are installing hospital grade are doing it for the isolated ground and unless wired correctly it will not be or can hurt someone. When an electrician or home owner installs it and does not use the correct wire it is a waste of time & money. You must bond grounds.Sorry Hevac your post is a little confusing. I am sure you are aware Hospital Grade receptacles are made either isolated ground,(IG), and non isolated ground type. I would venture to say the majority of hospital grade recepts used for typical home audio equipment are not IG type. Example is Albert Porter's Porter Ports. A NASA cryoed Hubbell HBL8300H duplex receptacle.
As for Tmesselt case if he paid the extra bucks for a good quality IG hospital grade recept, say like the Hubbell IG8300 he can still use the recept for its great build quality and sonic benefits it may yield for his audio system. As for the equipment ground I assume the dedicated branch circuits are 2 conductor/ with bare grd NM-B sheathed cable. Did he waste his money buying an IG recept in his case? Yes....
As you, I am aware of NEC 2008 Art 406.
You might want to refresh your memory... 406.2 (2)
If the recept has a ferrous metal yoke he could always use a stranded wire grd pigtail from the yoke, strap, to equipment grounding conductor of the branch circuit. That is if he thinks the ferrous strap is affecting the sonics of his audio system. Brass un-plated strap... there would be no problem jmho.
I said I knew about the IG and non IG Hospital grade outlets. I will depend on what and from whom they purcahase the outlet from the PS Audio Power Ports are IG.
How electrical is run and is terminated will differ from state to state and the NEC is a referance for states to write there own. Some states are more lax on the NEC rules, some are not and some add rules. MEC and not the NEC is what I have to go by.
Here in Mass home owners can only pull wires with an electrician (for now anyway) but not terminate no matter the voltage, legally anyway. Not even a thermastat or doorbell.
In NH you run and terminate as long as you own it.
Your state may be differant then mine is.
I called my inspector today and asked him why I had to change the pastic boxes to metal on the IG outlets on a job he inspected for me 2 months ago. I am putting this in layman terms. If there is any METAL on an outlet not used for powering the outlet it must be grounded no exceptions.
He also said if I could find an outlet without metal tabs for mounting then the way I had it would have been fine.
Do you know of any?
Sorry if I blabbed or you thead Tmesselt.
I am putting this in layman terms.LOL, not for my benifit I hope?
I called my inspector today and asked him why I had to change the pastic boxes to metal on the IG outlets on a job he inspected for me 2 months ago. I am putting this in layman terms. If there is any METAL on an outlet not used for powering the outlet it must be grounded no exceptions.AHJ.... He has the final say.... Did you ask the inspector if he would approve a bonding strap, wire, from the yoke of the recept to the grounding conductor?
Curiosity killed the cat... You are an electrician, why were you using an IG recept on a non metallic raceway installation?
As far as NEC 2008 406.2 (2) if a non conductive cover plate is used it is ok to use the IG recept.
We don't know what the AHJ would have to say where Tmesselt lives.
Curious where did you read in Tmesselt's responses where he said his hospital grade recepts were IG?
How old is your house and the develepment. Most new house the gas and electrical are plastic not metal. The piping to your house could be plastic also so grounding to them will do nothing. In that case the electrician puts 2 rods in the ground 6 feet from each other for house ground.
My house was built in the 20s, although I just had gas service ran to my house last fall and that is when the furnace was installed as well. The gas lines are metal in my house.
Also last fall when I moved into the house the ground was actually not grounded to anything. So I had an electrician come to reground the house. 2 were ran, 1 to the water main and the other he ran a ground rod in the ground.
I do have a gas dryer, I will try this tonight!
So based on all of the suggestions I have a starting point to begin to hopefully isolate where my issue is coming from. So on another note though, I am using 12/2 NM-B romex and so with this wire I can not correctly run an isolated ground?? If so, what is a good receptacle that I can use in place of my hospital grade outlets with isolate ground, (note: these are no longer in my system) I heard suggestions of a Hubbel above but I think that had an IG??
Thanks again for all of the feedback!!
... ,I am using 12/2 NM-B romex and so with this wire I can not correctly run an isolated ground??Tim, what is your understanding of an isolated ground?
(note: these are no longer in my system) I heard suggestions of a Hubbel above but I think that had an IG??If the face of the hospital grade receptacle is orange in colour or has a orange colour triangle on the face then yes it is an IG recept. Don't confuse a red face with a orange face. But a recept with a red face that has a orange triangle on the face is an IG recept.
Albert Porter's Porter ports are not IG recepts..... But they are hospital grade receptacles.