Yeah, the other strange thing (to me at least) is that both amps are on the same 20 amp dedicated circuit. Making me think it should effect both amps and speakers???? Although, I agree with your statement that a dedicated circuit should be seperate from the furnace line. Also it is strange that I have never experienced this before with my previous amps and this is the only thing that I have changed.
Except for I used Analysis Plus balanced interconnects before. Now that I am using the Genesis m60s which are unbalanced I am using a cheap pair NXG rca cables. Until my Shunyata Antares ICs get here hopefully sometime in the middle of this coming week.
Could these cheap interconnect be picking up this interference? I am thinking probably not, but just trying to go over what has changed in my system now that I am getting this strange issue.
Tim |
Well so far from what I have seen is that my dedicated circuits are both on the same side of the panel as the furnace is. I do have a gas furnace so the breaker for the furnace is 110. As a last resort I can look into putting the furnace breaker on the other side of the panel. (Is this what you were referring to Nosnhoj???)
Also one other thing to note is that my ground bars in my breaker are full and there is more than one ground in each one, including both dedicated circuits for my audio setup.
I have also switched my amps to the other dedicated circuit that is installed, and now the clicking noise the furnace starting is now coming through the opposite speaker.
Commcat,
So what if I use a 2 prong adapter and I find out that the problem is gone then how do I really fix this problem as I do not want to permanently use one of these adapters. |
Oregon,
yeah, I actually did install them myself. by confirming the lines are dedicated, yes I believe they are.
I installed 2 20amp breakers, connected to each breaker is a run of 12/2 romex, then connected to a pair of hospital grade duplex's.
Like I said before all has been fine with my previous amps since I installed the 2 dedicated lines 4-5 months ago, and this just started yesterday when I hooked up these amps.
Tim |
Jea48,
Well I have no idea about my particular nxg cables, I cant find any info about these exact ones and they are prob about 5-6 years old so no telling. I see there are some new ones that are shielded that are prob the newer models of the ones I am using.
As far as the furnace goes, it is 5-6 months old, I just had it put it.
I also tried to lift the ground on both of the amps, this did not work either. I guess the thing I will do next is just wait for my new interconnects which will be here soon and I will see if that fixes the problem, (hopefully soon). |
hevac1,
I am using hospital grade outlets with romex 12/2 so I obviously did not wire them how you are suggesting to. Do you have to wire all audiophile grade outlets like this, or do you wire them like a standard outlet?
Oh, and I have also put the cheater plug on both amps and the clicking is still there.
I also used a plastic blue box for old work, so I am not able to ground to that.
So if you do not think that cables will make a difference, I will go get some standard outlets to start with and see how that goes. |
timrhu,
So you think that they problem may be my amps, and not something with my electrical wiring in my house?
Or maybe that the issue was there the entire time and the Bel Canto's just filtered it out and I could not hear it?
Tim |
Hevac1,
Thanks for digging into this for me, I am going to start with calling my electrician and make sure the furnace and dedicated circuits are on separate feeds. Hopefully that will take care of it.
Also thank you very much for your offer, unfortunately that is a bit out of my means but very nice none the less.
Thanks
Tim |
Well, due to the fact that I was not wiring the isolated ground correctly I switched out my outlets to a standard 20amp outlet and the clicking is still there, but at least it is connected correctly.
As far as the Ref1000s I sold them along with the balanced ICs that went with them to fund the purchase of the Genesis and my new ICs which have not gotten here yet.
As far as my house ground, I just had that installed a few months ago also, he drove a stake in the ground and also grounded to my water main.
So, now I am at a crossroads, the clicking is not all that bad, can this power do harm? Is it possible that this power that is causing this clicking thru my speakers is also causing a degradation in my overall sound quality (even when the furnace is not starting up?) I say this because it is possibly something I can live with for a bit.
On the other hand, I have contacted my electrician who has not gotten back to me yet, but what would I want him to do?
Run a subpanel with just my audio equipment on it with its own dedicated ground??? Would this have to be another stake drove into the ground??
Also I just unplugged my ICs, so all that was hooked up was speaker wire and power to the Genesis amps and the clicking was still there so even though the ICs were a long shot they are no also ruled out.
I really want to thank everyone for their input, it is very nice of you all.
Best Regards,
Tim |
Jea48
So my first move should be to my furnace company? (This is somewhat overwhelming for me as so my responses with different advice have all came in) But afterall the furnace would more than likely be a free service call due to the fact that it is so new, and then just figure it out from there.
Also I have checked the furnace ground. They grounded it to the gas line that runs right next to it, then there is another ground coming from the panel, inside the furnace there is a wire nut connecting these 2 grounds to the actual ground for the furnace. All of those connections seem to be in correct.
Could any of this be caused by double tapping my ground bar in my panel?? |
Or it's possible that the neutral or ground at the boiler switch is reversed. Or worse, the neutral is bonded to the ground screw. Just have him check everything - sometimes Joe the Boiler Man does his own wiring. I have noticed that on my panel I dont really have a neutral bar and a ground bar I just have ground/neutral bar where they are both plugged into. Ground and neutral wires are not separated. Do they need to be separate? |
So I have just spoken with the company that put my furnace in. He has pretty much told me that it is RF noise and that the furnace is hooked up correctly or else the computer would not let it start. That included the fact that I asked him about not being grounded correctly, and the neutral and hot wires being crossed, etc....
He basically said to me that there was pretty much no way that the furnace wasn't hooked up correctly assuring me that what they did was done correctly.
Then he said I should put a rf noise filter on my amps!!
So obviously I am not wanting to do this, but he also said that it is possible to maybe put a rf noise filter in line with the circuit to the furnace. |
Tim, what is your understanding of an isolated ground? Instead of hooking the outlet like you would to normal outlet. You use a 3 wire + ground (12/3). Black -> Power White -> Neutral Red w/ green tape -> Ground Bare wire -> Ground to metal receptacle box So what I am getting from this is that an isolated ground outlet differs from a standard, is that it the receptacle box is also grounded in addition to the outlet. Now, that I am thinking about it, would actually hooking up the isolated ground correctly possibly help me get rid of the rf noise coming from my furnace ignition?? |
So at the suggestion of my local hifi shop they said I should audition a Shunyata Hydra 2.
This did not fix my problem.
Worth a try though as this was something I could try for free.
Tim |
Not sure if this will totally resolve the issue but I am hoping so. A few days ago I noticed I have no neutral coming in from my meter, it seems to come from the power line to my house but the actual metal pipe that connects my panel to the meter only has 2 power cables and it looks as if there is no room for a neutral in there. The electrician I had take a look said the houseprob never had one?! I'm actually away til early next week so when I return I will get the electrician back over and try to come up with a solution. |
How old is your house and the develepment. Most new house the gas and electrical are plastic not metal. The piping to your house could be plastic also so grounding to them will do nothing. In that case the electrician puts 2 rods in the ground 6 feet from each other for house ground. My house was built in the 20s, although I just had gas service ran to my house last fall and that is when the furnace was installed as well. The gas lines are metal in my house. Also last fall when I moved into the house the ground was actually not grounded to anything. So I had an electrician come to reground the house. 2 were ran, 1 to the water main and the other he ran a ground rod in the ground. Tmesselt,
By chance do you have a gas fired cloths dryer?
If so have your wife start the dryer while you listen for for any ignitor clicking noise sound from your speakers. I do have a gas dryer, I will try this tonight! So based on all of the suggestions I have a starting point to begin to hopefully isolate where my issue is coming from. So on another note though, I am using 12/2 NM-B romex and so with this wire I can not correctly run an isolated ground?? If so, what is a good receptacle that I can use in place of my hospital grade outlets with isolate ground, (note: these are no longer in my system) I heard suggestions of a Hubbel above but I think that had an IG?? Thanks again for all of the feedback!! Tim |
So I just plugged the amps into another outlet in my living room. (This is the actual breaker for my living room and kitchen I believe.) I still got the ignition noise through my speakers.
I will try my gas dryer as soon as I can this evening and report back.
Tim |
Ngjockey,
Thanks for your input. I will try to relay some of this information available to my installer. Maybe I can just forward some of these ideas to him.
Also, there was no noise that came through my speakers when I started the gas dryer. |
So I dug up my receipt. Here is whats on it.
Ruud UGPN-05EAUER Achiever Upfloe/Horiztonal 50,000BTU 80% Gas Furnace
Thanks again to everyone helping out! |
No neutral, highly unlikely....
Go outside your house to where the power company's overhead power line attaches to the house. Look up at their cable. You should see 3 wires. 2 insulated conductors and 1 bare conductor. That is if you have a 120/240V service... The bare conductor is the neutral conductor. See if the 3 power company's wires connect to 3 wires coming out of the weather head of your homes electrical service.
How about some pictures..... Well yeah, I actually have a neutral coming to my house, there seems to be some sort of sub panel in the rear of my house maybe that is where the neutral is. However it does not seem there is a neutral in my main panel. I will get pics up soon, unfortunately my camera is down, hopefully my camera can do it justice. Tim |
I know this thread is now almost a year old but I just wanted to give an update as so many people were kind enough to lend a hand and give me some advice with this strange problem that I was having. After having an electrician out and him not being able to do anything to fix the problem. I just figured it was something I had to live with until I went back to balanced interconnects?? Anyhow it was really bugging me so I took off the cover to my panel and looked it over real well. Then I noticed there was 2 wires in 1 breaker?!? For some reason it was difficult to see the other times I took a look. So I moved 1 of the wires to its own breaker and now I cant hear all of the various fans turning on and off in my house. (oven, and bathroom) As well as the furnace ignition clicking several times before it lit! So regardless this has made my night and I just wanted to share, as it only took me just about 1 year to fix this annoying problem!
Thanks again to the people that helped me a year ago trying to fix the problem!
tmesselt |
Well, unfortunately the fix was short lived, as the heater starting up is just much quieter than before and I could barely hear it. When I tried the paper shredder though, it came through very loud through my speakers. Oh well, I am going to try new amplification in the coming months so hopefully that will fix it, and if not that maybe balanced interconnects will be the way to go for me. |
