HELP I think I have an electrical issue??

Except for I used Analysis Plus balanced interconnects before. Now that I am using the Genesis m60s which are unbalanced I am using a cheap pair NXG rca cables.

Are the NXG rca cables shielded? Try another pair of ics that are shielded.

Like I said before all has been fine with my previous amps since I installed the 2 dedicated lines 4-5 months ago, and this just started yesterday when I hooked up these amps.

Could be these amps are more sensitive to RF interference than the other amps.

The ignition spark on the furnace is high voltage and generates airborne RFI. It is also possible the HV spark ignitor is sending RFI back through the equipment grounding conductor of the branch circuit that feeds the furnace. When was the last time you had your furnace checked out? You might call someone out and have it serviced and have them check the ignition controller and the ignitor for a possible loose or corroded ground connection.

Tmesselt,
The furnace is still covered under manufacture warranty for parts and labor. Give the furnace company that installed the furnace a call and tell them you are experiencing a problem with the furnace. LOL, no need to mention you didn't have the problem with the other amps. They may have an AC line filter they can install on the furnace. At any rate they will check to make sure the ignition controller and ignitor is making a good ground connection to the metal frame work of the furnace.

03-28-09: Sns
Cables are not going to fix this issue, picking up RFI from the furnace is the longest of long shots, and they didn't do it with the other amp, should tell you something. Ground potential is somehow different with new amps, I don't know why.

Sns, do you have a battery operated radio? If so set the band to AM and tune in a weak radio station. Go to where your furnace is located and have the wife turn up the stat to call for heat. When the ignitor starts bet you will hear it over the radio. Guess what? The radio shares no power or ground with the furnace whats so ever..... Airborne RFI.
I am not saying Tmesselt's problem is caused by airborne RFI, but it is a possibility.

We know one thing for sure at this point.
With the old amps and old ics there was not any problem.
A little hard to blame it on the dedicated branch circuit wiring at this time.

For a test I would like Tmesselt to try the ground cheaters on the amps. If that stops the clicking sound of the ignitor then the problem can be solved at the furnace.

Oh, and I have also put the cheater plug on both amps and the clicking is still there.
03-28-09: Tmesselt

Why does that not surprise me......

Hevac1,
Hospital grade receptacles do not have to be isolated ground type receptacles.

The ever so popular Hubbell HBL 8300H hospital grade duplex receptacle

Hubbell IG8300 hospital grade duplex receptacle.

03-28-09: Tmesselt
Well, due to the fact that I was not wiring the isolated ground correctly I switched out my outlets to a standard 20amp outlet and the clicking is still there, but at least it is connected correctly

If the receptacles are isolated ground recepts you could have left them in.... NEC requires if an isolated ground type receptacle is used with a plastic box the cover plate has to be made of a non conductive material... Plastic, Nylon, wood, ect....

Run a subpanel with just my audio equipment on it with its own dedicated ground??? Would this have to be another stake drove into the ground??

Dedicated ground? A dedicated earth ground for the sub panel that is not connected to the main grounding electrode system of your home?
Don't do it. And if your friend is a licensed electrician he won't do it.

Also I just unplugged my ICs, so all that was hooked up was speaker wire and power to the Genesis amps and the clicking was still there so even though the ICs were a long shot they are no also ruled out.

Did you install shorting plugs on the inputs of the amps?

Call the people who installed the furnace.

I am no Ham Radio Operator but if one has been following this thread they might chime in. If the ignition module or ignitor is not bonded, grounded, properly to the frame of the furnace a resistance will exist between the ground of the module/ignitor and the grounded furnace chassis. This can amplify the transmitting RFI of the ignitor.. A transmitting antenna.

Ngjockey, am I correct in my thinking?
.

Tmesselt,
By chance do you have a gas fired cloths dryer?
If so have your wife start the dryer while you listen for for any ignitor clicking noise sound from your speakers.

Tim,
Installing an IG recept on an NM-B branch circuit will not have any benefit whats so ever. Using a ferrous metal box in place of the plastic box could actually degrade the sonics of you audio system.

IG receptacles are mainly used in commercial or industrial buildings where EMI/RFI noise may be present on metallic electrical conduits, building steel structures, metal wall studs, ect, ect.
In this case for sensitive electronic equipment a IG recept may be desired.
Lets say a customer bought a piece of equipment that states the equipment must be connected to a 120V 20 amp dedicated circuit with an IG NEMA 5-20R receptacle.

First off to be a "true dedicated" branch circuit the circuit wiring can not share a conduit with any other branch circuit wiring.

So the electrician installs a 1/2" EMT, (thin wall), conduit from the electrical panel to the new recept outlet location. (Distance is short voltage drop is not a problem)
For the wire he selects #12 THHN.
(1)Black conductor, hot.
(1) White conductor, neutral.
(2) insulated green conductors.
** One green wire bonds, connects to the metal rough-in box and the other green wire connects the ground screw terminal on the IG recept.
Back at the electrical panel The black hot connects to a 20 amp breaker. The white wire to the neutral bar. And 99.9% of the time both green equipment grounding wires connect to the same equipment ground bar..... NEC will allow the ground wire that is connected to the IG recept to extend through other upstream panels,(that feed the panel that is feeding the new dedicated branch circuit), and connect the ground wire where the main feeder neutral is connected to earth.... How often do you think that happens?

Now, that I am thinking about it, would actually hooking up the isolated ground correctly possibly help me get rid of the rf noise coming from my furnace ignition??

Simple answer, no....

At this point you can't say for sure the EMI/RFI is being radiated through the air or being carried on your homes wiring... Or Both...

You would of thought the Heating and Air Conditioning Contractor would have at least sent out a tech to make sure the ignitor assembly was firmly connected to the burner assembly. And the burner assembly securely fastened to the furnace. That the ignition module grounding jumper was securely fastened to the metal structure of the furnace.

What make is the furnace. Manufacture and model number? I assume the furnace is a forced air furnace.

When you get home tonight try the gas cloth dryer...

The Midwest is full of gas furnaces with electronic ignition/ignitors.... I can't recall ever reading a thread here on Agon or AA where a member experienced your same problem.

For what it is worth My furnace is a Lennox high efficiency with an electronic ignition system. It even uses a VFD to ramp down the fan speed before shutting off after a cycle.

Audio system,
Sonic frontiers Line One preamp, tubes.
ARC VT50 power amp, tubes.

The furnace does not effect my audio system whats so ever.

I know not all hospital outlets are not isolated. Most people here who are installing hospital grade are doing it for the isolated ground and unless wired correctly it will not be or can hurt someone. When an electrician or home owner installs it and does not use the correct wire it is a waste of time & money. You must bond grounds.
Hevac1

Sorry Hevac your post is a little confusing. I am sure you are aware Hospital Grade receptacles are made either isolated ground,(IG), and non isolated ground type. I would venture to say the majority of hospital grade recepts used for typical home audio equipment are not IG type. Example is Albert Porter's Porter Ports. A NASA cryoed Hubbell HBL8300H duplex receptacle.

As for Tmesselt case if he paid the extra bucks for a good quality IG hospital grade recept, say like the Hubbell IG8300 he can still use the recept for its great build quality and sonic benefits it may yield for his audio system. As for the equipment ground I assume the dedicated branch circuits are 2 conductor/ with bare grd NM-B sheathed cable. Did he waste his money buying an IG recept in his case? Yes....

As you, I am aware of NEC 2008 Art 406.
You might want to refresh your memory... 406.2 (2)
=========

If the recept has a ferrous metal yoke he could always use a stranded wire grd pigtail from the yoke, strap, to equipment grounding conductor of the branch circuit. That is if he thinks the ferrous strap is affecting the sonics of his audio system. Brass un-plated strap... there would be no problem jmho.
Jim

I am putting this in layman terms.

LOL, not for my benifit I hope?

I called my inspector today and asked him why I had to change the pastic boxes to metal on the IG outlets on a job he inspected for me 2 months ago. I am putting this in layman terms. If there is any METAL on an outlet not used for powering the outlet it must be grounded no exceptions.
He also said if I could find an outlet without metal tabs for mounting then the way I had it would have been fine.
03-30-09: Hevac1

AHJ.... He has the final say.... Did you ask the inspector if he would approve a bonding strap, wire, from the yoke of the recept to the grounding conductor?
Curiosity killed the cat... You are an electrician, why were you using an IG recept on a non metallic raceway installation?

As far as NEC 2008 406.2 (2) if a non conductive cover plate is used it is ok to use the IG recept.
We don't know what the AHJ would have to say where Tmesselt lives.

Curious where did you read in Tmesselt's responses where he said his hospital grade recepts were IG?

... ,I am using 12/2 NM-B romex and so with this wire I can not correctly run an isolated ground??

Tim, what is your understanding of an isolated ground?

(note: these are no longer in my system) I heard suggestions of a Hubbel above but I think that had an IG??

If the face of the hospital grade receptacle is orange in colour or has a orange colour triangle on the face then yes it is an IG recept. Don't confuse a red face with a orange face. But a recept with a red face that has a orange triangle on the face is an IG recept.
Albert Porter's Porter ports are not IG recepts..... But they are hospital grade receptacles.

Tim,
Good that the gas Dryer did not cause a problem. That is a plus I would think.

Before you contact the installer I suggest you do a little homework. I asked you to post who made your furnace and the model number if possible. I spent a little time on Google last night and I found there are others out there with similar problems as you.

Check this out......
Quote from Link:

FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
Enforcement Bureau
Spectrum Enforcement Division
1270 Fairfield Road
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania 17325-7245

CERTIFIED MAIL-RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED

August 28, 2006

(name withheld)
(address withheld)
Lebanon, PA 17402

Dear (name withheld):

The Federal Communications Commission has received a complaint that your residential furnace ignition system is causing harmful radio interference to an operator in the Amateur Radio Service. The complainant is:

(name withheld)
(address withheld)
Lebanon, PA 17042

The FCC has the responsibility to require that such problems be rectified within a reasonable time if the interference is caused by faulty consumer equipment. Under FCC rules, equipment such as a furnace igniter is classified as an "incidental radiator." This term is used to describe equipment that does not intentionally generate any radio-frequency energy, but that may create such energy as an incidental part of its intended operation.

To help you better understand your responsibilities under FCC rules, here are the most important rules relating to radio and television interference from incidental radiators:

Title 47, CFR Section 15.5 General conditions of operation.

(b) Operation of an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator is subject to the conditions that no harmful interference is caused and that interference must be accepted that may be caused by the operation of an authorized radio station, by another intentional or unintentional radiator, by industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) equipment, or by an incidental radiator.

(c) The operator of the radio frequency device shall be required to cease operating the device upon notification by a Commission representative that the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected.

Title 47, CFR Section 15.13 Incidental radiators.

Manufacturers of these devices shall employ good engineering practices to minimize the risk of harmful interference.

Title 47, CFR Section 15.15 General technical requirements.

(c) Parties responsible for equipment compliance should note that the limits specified in this part will not prevent harmful interference under all circumstances. Since the operators of Part 15 devices are required to cease operation should harmful interference occur to authorized users of the radio frequency spectrum, the parties responsible for equipment compliance are encouraged to employ the minimum field strength necessary for communications, to provide greater attenuation of unwanted emissions than required by these regulations, and to advise the user as to how to resolve harmful interference problems (for example, see Sec. 15.105(b)).

The complainant has attempted unsuccessfully to resolve this problem with the furnace igniter and as a result the matter has been referred to our office. The FCC prefers that those responsible for the proper operation of equipment assume their responsibilities fairly. This means that you should resolve the interference caused by the furnace igniter and make necessary corrections within a reasonable time.

While the FCC has confidence that most people are able to resolve these issues voluntarily, the FCC wants to make you aware that this unresolved problem may be a violation of FCC rules and could result in a monetary forfeiture (fine) for each occurrence. At this stage, the FCC encourages the parties to resolve this problem without FCC intervention; but if necessary to facilitate resolution, the FCC may investigate possible rules violations and address appropriate remedies.

The American Radio Relay League, a national organization of Amateur Radio operators, may be able to offer help and guidance about radio interference that involves Amateur Radio operators.

American Radio Relay League
Radio Frequency Interference Desk
225 Main Street
Newington, CT 06111
Tel: (860) 594-0200
E-mail: [email protected]

Please advise the complainant what steps you are taking to correct this reported interference problem. The FCC expects that most cases can be resolved within 60 days of the time they are first reported. If you are unable to resolve this within 60 days, please advise this office about the nature of the problem, the steps you are taking to resolve it and the estimated time in which those steps can be accomplished. If you have any questions about this matter, please contact me at 717-338-2502.

W. Riley Hollingsworth
Special Counsel

cc: FCC Northeastern Regional Director
End of quote.
FCC Link

===================

If you have a 120V AM/FM radio I would set the radio to the AM band, set the radio on a weak station and listen for the ignitor interference. Good chance you will hear it...

I would call the installer back and ask him nicely to call the furnace manufacture Tech Support help line and find out if they have had any similar complaints.
I would also send along the Link I provided along with any other you may find doing a Google search.
At the very least the installer should send one of his techs out to check out the furnace. If the tech does not find a problem nor offers any relief I would then request the installer contact the manufacture of the furnace and request the manufacturer to pay the installer to remedy the problem in what ever manner is needed. The cure might simply be to install an AC line filter on the furnace.

Ngjockey,
A word of caution for Tim.... Any tampering/modifying of the furnace wiring could void his manufactures warranty.
In most cases the manufacture only warrants the parts. The labor is picked up by the Heating/air conditioning mechanical contractor. It may also release the manufacture of any responsibility to solve the problem.

I would not touch the furnace at this time until Tim has exhausted all avenues for the manufacture/mech contractor to solve the problem. Any line filter device installed at the furnace should be installed by the Mech contractor or his electrician/contractor.
Jim

A few days ago I noticed I have no neutral coming in from my meter, it seems to come from the power line to my house but the actual metal pipe that connects my panel to the meter only has 2 power cables and it looks as if there is no room for a neutral in there.

No neutral, highly unlikely....
Go outside your house to where the power company's overhead power line attaches to the house. Look up at their cable. You should see 3 wires. 2 insulated conductors and 1 bare conductor. That is if you have a 120/240V service... The bare conductor is the neutral conductor. See if the 3 power company's wires connect to 3 wires coming out of the weather head of your homes electrical service.

How about some pictures.....

The electrician I had take a look said the houseprob never had one?!

Find another electrician!
.