Do I really need an " Audio Grade Network Switch "?

Audiogon Discussion Forum

The above post describes what I discovered last night with an EtherRegen + SOnore OpticalRendu streaming into a Musetec 005 DAC.

I am going to get a Sonore OpticalModule for my other system to stream with Sonore OpticalRendu that I also have on that system. The link above gets into the details of why I tried this.

@sns  okay, I have little understanding when it comes to some of this. When you say, "modifying server for two ethernet ports" and FMC; what exactly are you talking about? I have a 35-foot Bluejeans Cat6 that I drilled a hole to feed thru to basement and traverse length to front wall and back up directly into Node 2. 

To get two ports out of my server (exteme modded mac mini) I assigned/bridged thundebolt port as ethernet port, thunderbolt to ethernet conversion cable, instantly have two ethernet ports. On other servers you could do this with usb ports. Or off the shelf servers such as Antipodes and Sonicorbiter I9 which have two ethernet ports built in,  I9 also has advantage of being optical out.

Ethernet direct out of server beneficial if running separate streamer/end point, in this case it bypasses switch or router, also useful for direct out to the FMC's, Optical conversion is best way to isolate streamer/dacs from network noise. I can just about guarantee the future will be all optical network solutions.

FMC is fiber media converter, this converts ethernet to optical, you can do this on cheap with FMC like TP link MC220 or you can go higher end with Sonore opticalrendu products.

For those wanting to learn more about streaming, audiophilestyle.com forum is the place to go.https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/

I suspect the real answer to the question is like every other question in high end audio: it depends. It depends on the quality of your streamer, router, modem, interconnects and downstream equipment. For me the answer is no, I needed no special networking equipment. I have a flagship streamer that takes care of any upstream issues and completely isolates the bit stream it releases to my DAC. But, probably other folks with other streamers are more effected by the packets and physical connection, You can probably put a lot of money in the network side and get much better sound out of a less expensive streamer… or visa versa. The effect on cables will depend on the equipment on both side.

But one thing I have found for sure is streaming can perform as good or in many cases better than dedicated CD players and with the right equipment equal vinyl. How you get there will be different for everyone, but it is a very worthy pursuit.

So both the Bonn N8 (which I own) and the SW-8 use customized TCXO clocks.  Some report even better results using switches with OCXO clocks, like this one and this one.  

To your question, do you really need to spend the money for an "audio grade" network switch - not in my experience.  Setting aside the technical reasons that the clock in the switch shouldn't make a difference when feeding a competent server, and also setting aside what it really means to have an "audio grade" switch (i.e., better clock, more expensive, what makes it "audio grade"?), I simply have not heard a difference.  I run 45 feet of Ethernet cable from my router to my server.  I have heard no improvement or difference between a bunch of stuff I have tried and compared such as:

• Ethernet cable vs. fiber optic cable feeding my server
• Bonn N8 vs. Netgear switch, and 
• Small boxes by UpTone Audio and W4S vs. nothing

There are things I am curious about trying such as the Intona Isolators, ENO Ethernet filter, and the DJM Electronics GigaFOILv4–INLINE Ethernet filter, but based on my experience I just cannot make myself spend the money when I cannot hear any problems with my current set-up - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'd agree I've heard little difference with devices pre server. Its post server where all the meaningful improvements come from. I'm listening to just installed Sonore opticalrendu (powered by Uptone JS2 LPS), wonderful improvement upon SOTM SMS200. I'm now full optical from first FMC which is direct out from server, to usb out to Dac. Prior had two FMC and ethernet cable to go through. Usb out of any server is highly unlikely to be best streaming solution. Optical post server is optimal setup, absolute isolation between server and dac is a must, dont need all these add on filters with this method.

I haven't tried these products - mostly because the premise of improved "clocking", "timing", and/or "less jitter" improving SQ doesn't seem likely given the error correction in the TCP protocol - as well as where these switches are to be installed (before the streamer/server).

In my experience, "noise" in the digital front end plumbing can have downstream effects on SQ, and I have had good results using products that aim to deal with that:  linear power supplies, Gigafoil, ENO ethernet filter.  FWIW, I have what I consider a decent streamer - the DCS Network Bridge.

Looking at a few of the audiophile switches mentioned here, most only market the improved timing, decreased jitter or "data integrity" as the stated benefit.  A few do mention techniques to reduce clock and other "noise", and/or using improved external power supplies to that affect.  I could see these possibly having a benefit.

As with other proposed improvements maybe somewhat to do with your self-confidence. Do you trust your own ears or others ears?

Hi preston8452,  Clearly some people say it won't make a difference, and others say they have tried one and it does.  Very few say they have tried one and it did not make a difference.  But maybe it didn't in their system. Certainly peoples systems and hearing will affect their opinion as well.  I have nice stuff, including nice streamer / DAC, good cables and I am ecstatic with the sound.  I added an EtherREGEN, and to my ears it was a nice improvement.  I then added the Bonn 8 Silent Angel network switch, replacing a Netgear switch, because as you stated, the price was appealing and I wanted to try one.  To my ears, the Bonn 8 improved things again.  Not as much as the EtherRGEN, but I feel it added and was worth it.

I recommend you try one!  Ken

I have an EtherRegen on order since early December. I'm going to try it. Here's why: 

Recently I was building out a wall-mount rack on the opposite side of the front wall of my listening room. (I always told my daughter that her bedroom would become - my media room when she moved out.) This is conveniently adjacent to my network closet with my firewall and router. 

In my planning, I'd decided to run a single network cable from a switch port in the network closet and then place a small switch in the rack that would supply the two devices (Oppo and streamer) with network access. This I did. And when everything was ready, I went back to the listening room to give my results a listen. 

Digital streaming sounded awful. Brittle. Streaming local files was not as bad, but neither sounded like they had before my most recent modifications. Long story short, I removed the new switch and the system returned its prior performance levels. 

The thing is, I've been working with networks for 30 years in my day job. I would NEVER have told you that I expected a switch to make a difference in the presentation of digital sound. But the answer, I think, is that switches can introduce noise onto the medium (wire), and some will more than others. Maybe your gear will filter out that noise, maybe it won't. My DAC is a Benchmark DAC3 HGC. It clearly doesn't capture it all. My streamer is a Tinkerboard S-based Volumio streamer that I built that normally sounds pretty fantastic. (Not expecting more than the standard level of galvanic isolation from that unit).

Converting to fiber and back comes with its own limitations on bit rate, etc, and in the end, it's two more conversions from the original format, so I'm a little shy about that approach. 

So I ordered the EtherRegen. I don't know if I expect it to improve on the link that I'm currently using, but I still want a switch in my rack, and the Netgear device I'd purchased (been using them for years) wasn't going to cut it. 

I am feeding a dCS Network Bridge with good optical + audioquest diamond  thru 3 switches (ER x 2 + Sotm)  Further, each stage is externally reclocked by a double emperor clock, as is the NB (as suggested by dCS).  

I heard improvement at every stage (including when improving clock cables).

All I can say is that different systems react differently.  In my case it's a huge, repeat huge upgrade.  

Try in your own system whatever anyone says.

We really  don't know everything.

Best wishes

anybody care to go back and see how many times this has been discussed on this and many other forums with the exact same results? Next time somebody wants to discuss this, please do just a tiny bit of research and see that it has been discussed ad nauseam..If I had seen it before you all chimed in I could have summarized the responses before they were posted. 

It is an endless and fruitless debate. It is an utter and complete waste of time. We see the same things stated over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again

and yet we will very soon see yet another thread where we see the same things stated over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again

@herman,

the problem is the immature state of digital music reproduction: to wit: lack of interfaces with universally applicable results, error correction and dsp protocols with uncertain impact on sound reproduction, differential quality of power supplies and other signal transmission prone to RMI/EFI as well as ground level noise incursions, various degrees of clocking accuracy and phase noise generation and rejection, shall I go on? It doesn’t help that most reviewers tend to skirt these issues and give highly system context dependent recommendations. So I am afraid we’ll have to keep wading through endless threads. I only wish that people who have nothing but theoretical postulates to reiterate would exercise some restraint. My digital replay continues to evolve from an early start with the first CD players via computer servers to dedicated servers and latest generation dacs. In the process I have found significant benefits from gradual finetuning of all digital connections through signal and power cables, Isolators, reclockers, and power supplies.

Most of all: let’s enjoy the music!

I like to say, yes and yes, from my experiences trying many many switches and finally ended up accepting the Sotm 10G + ZeroZone R-Core 100 watts LPS + Shunyata Venon V12 NR + Ghents Audio DC cable.

I went to hell and back spending hundreds of dollars lost quantifying this equation.

Hard road to travel and will not be doing it again. 

I don’t even have a streaming network, but feel compelled to respond. Count me in the "everything matters (sonically)" camp.

That doesn’t mean I have an electrical engineering degree and would enjoy debating this point with every wonk that pops up on these threads. Always a bad sign when the same people post 3-4X with increasing hysteria when no one seems to be paying attention to their assertions that NOTHING MATTERS WHATSOEVER in all things digital. Once is enough, guys.

I have a history of actually hearing small differences due to minor system changes. When I hear, I’m using the only test instruments I possess--ears. So I can dabble with this or that box to do this or that, so long as I can afford the cost. Why not?

I remember the fury unleashed on people like me who heard early ’80s CDs & digital players as sounding horrible compared to any decent vinyl rig. Saying that was like saying there’s no Christmas or Santa or anything but moon rock. People went batshit crazy. Decades later, we all know about jitter; we all know about the influence of power supplies, clocks, other components--things that weren’t known in the early ’80s.

So really, I trust my ears more than anyone shouting from the rooftops that nothing matters in digital sound.

PS: I heard and still hear improvements in digital audio sound by using SPDIF converters in-line before the DAC (to my ears coax sounds best of the various non-USB options). And I recently replaced my main SPDIF converter with a DDC (a SPDIF converter that also reclocks the signal) and immediately heard sonic improvements. I've also heard changes (most positive, but some not) when using audiophile USB cords in those times I listen to digital via USB straight into the DAC. 

(ie, everything matters sonically)

@desktopguy 

👍👍

I only wish that people who have nothing but theoretical postulates to reiterate would exercise some restraint.

Dear Mr. Grunge.... amen

I have absolutely no interest in hearing from the engineering crowd about why it can’t possibly work. I have absolutely no interest in looking at test results from Audio Science Review where he doesn’t even listen, he just measures.

I do see value in people stating what they have tried and what the results have been. I see absolutely no value in the naysayers who have various argument about why it shouldn’t make a difference. Bumblebees shouldn’t be able to fly.. but they do.

(and yes, I do know that the bumblebees can’t fly theory has been disproven)

I have been in IT services for 20 years; my understanding is that data arrives intact or doesn't. If you hear a difference, you have a bad power supply in your switch that adds noise, affecting the DAC's Analog out. Wall warts = noise, but a good power conditioner should make all that moot. Confirmation bias is real. 

I liked reading those EE's or just being well informed of us list out the inner spec on 802.x etc. Thank you.

We regularly swap out ethernet cables with systems that start to get buggy random packet loss or slowness in a database, and It's cheaper to do that than buy a Fluke networks qualification tester. (Though we have one) CAT5/6/7/8 takes a beating over time, and getting the higher-spec cable should help in inference-based packet issues.

Yes. With an adequately resolving system an audio grade ethernet switch makes a significant SQ difference.

I now use two Uptone Audio Ether REGENs, one after my router and the second just before my Nucleus+. Both are powered by linear power supplies.

Audiophiles appear to agree, as Uptone has sold 3200 units in the first two years on the market. If you want to try one act quickly as supply chain parts availability issues are beginning to impact their availability going forward.

I have no financial or other interest in Uptone BTW.

I have listened to the Ether REGEN at length, then brought in other audiophiles to listen to my dCS Vivaldi stack and more recently to my preferred combo of a Grimm MU1 (streamer/Roon Core/storage device) and a Lampizator Pacific DAC. I/we listened to the REGEN in and out of the system.  I have also done listening tests feeding the REGEN  with fiber or Cat 6. Everyone who has listened could hear differences in all the combos. All prefer the REGEN in the system rather than a consumer grade data switch. I prefer fiber feeding the REGEN, some liked Cat 6 feeding it.  Point is they had a preference. I am currently configuring an AfterDark clock to reclock the REGEN and an Uptone dual output LPS to power both the REGEN and the clock. Streaming is how I listen to 95% of my music and I see no reason to stop exploring how developers are finding ways to improve streaming SQ. If you are on the fence about specialty switches spend the 700 bucks for a REGEN and see for yourself. If you don't like it, it will sell in a matter of hours here on AG. Might cost you 100 bucks to try it, but you won't sell it, you will keep it like the rest of us! I am not in a position to compare all the new devices coming out like the impressive and promising Synergistic Research, or new the ENO system, but I can assure you that if your system is resolving at a reasonable level you will hear a positive improvement with a REGEN in your system. I have no financial interest in Uptone, but I do have an interest in ending the misleading "scientific" nonsense I keep reading here that a digital system's sound quality is not affected by it's component parts unless they are broken. It's a lie!

+1

+1

Wonder what this great switch is supposed to do. Will it send more bits? Or less bits? Or bigger bits? Or warmer bits? Or cleaner bits? Or?

@gosta It takes a byte out of the wallet.

spend the 700 bucks for a REGEN and see for yourself. If you don’t like it, it will sell in a matter of hours here on AG.

 

Wonder what this great switch is supposed to do. Will it send more bits? Or less bits? Or bigger bits? Or warmer bits? Or cleaner bits? Or?

Uptone has a money back guarantee. Unlike the smartass who sits and wonders then makes a snarky comment about something they have no experience with  that adds nothing to the conversation, I have tried a variety of such devices including a variety of USB and ethernet reclockers so I at least have a basis for comment. I tried the Regen and returned it as I did not hear a difference.

I currently use a Mutec mc3+ USB to convert USB to AES because I do hear an improvement when I feed my DAC via AES rather than USB. I am not saying this is a universal truth, but it works for me.

Uptone has a money back guarantee. Unlike the smartass who sits and wonders then makes a snarky comment about something they have no experience with that adds nothing to the conversation, I have tried a variety of such devices including a variety of USB and ethernet reclockers so I at least have a basis for comment. I tried the Regen and returned it as I did not hear a difference.

unfortunately this type of thing happens way too often on this board

smart asses without knowledge or experience, just talking sh*t - truly lame 

talking sh*t is available as an option for folks who don’t have $640 to spend, even for a product with a money back guarantee

usernames, faceless identities are free

So, what is it supposed to do?

Well, lets go in to the nitty gritty.https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62477-john-swenson-tutoring-paper-considerations-regarding-usage-of-external-reference-clocks-etherregen-and-other-sine-vs-square-impedance-cables%E2%80%94and-a-money-saving-surprise-at-the-end/

I'll go for a LPS or iFi iPower to the modem & router will do the job on better signal. Much cheaper than network switch. 

Yes, certainly cheaper.

But in my experience, the network switch I have was markedly better than without.

A few weeks ago I received my JCAT M12 switch.  It replaced my (now available) Bonn 8 switch by Silent Angel.  It made a HUGE improvement  Then this weekend I received my Optimo 3 power supply also from JCAT.  It again made a big leap in performance.  I was skeptical a switch could do this, or a switch with LPS.   But it has.  Both the switch and the power supply sit on an isolation platform from Townshend.  All computer gear is upstairs in my office, and a Supra Cat 8 cable delivers the goods to my music systems.  I also use a Network Acoustics Filter prior to my Auralic Aries G2.1, which feeds my DAC with USB.  Some say this is overly complex, but the sound has improved greatly from my early days of streaming to where I am now.  I like all the computer gear in my office and out of site from my listening room,  and it is all also on a completely different circuit and panel.

@antigrunge2 -- "refreshing to find someone actually using his ears on this rigorist dogmatist thread"

I've longed recognized that I am the biggest uncontrolled variable in my stereo system. I'm a hybrid subjectivist/objectivist. While I buy what sounds good to me, I make no claim that my hearing is objective and not influenced by my other senses and both conscious and subconscious factors. 

An excellent book on this subject is "A Mind of Its Own - How Your Brain Distorts and Deceives" by Cordelia Fine, 2006. Our human nature and the way our brains function don't cease doing what they normally do just because the subject turns to audio.

@fastfreight  I believe that's actually Telegartner switch. I don't doubt that may be switch that may actually do some good, much proprietary engineering here. This would be only switch I'd consider after my bad experience with audiophile switch based on one of the common boards found in many of these switches.

Still, I can't imagine streaming getting much better than what I'm getting with JCAT Net XE board in my custom streamer powered with JCAT Optimo LPS. JCAT equipment is absolutely first rate!

@sns Merry Christmas to you and all!  I have now been enjoying the JCCAT M12 SWITCH with the JCAT Optimo 3 power supply for some time now.  Together, this switch and PS make a big difference over the Silent Angel Bonn N8 ( and I was using the HDPLEX to power it).  Yes, the M12 is a Telegartner switch.  Bill Parish, GTT audio, who I respect immensely, heard my system before and after the upgrade, and clearly heard the improvements as well.  And yes, JCAT equipment and customer service is absolutely first rate!