Kudos should go to tape, the medium the recording was made on. Tape is a natural medium. It breathes. Vinyl is simply the neutral repository for the taped information.howver, as I opined recently imho there’s nothing really wrong with CDs per second. The problem in terms of their sound quality arises when they are played using CDCplayers that are still fraught with problems. Like background scattered laser light getting into the not too swift photodetector.
Geoffkait, what I spoke of, possibly has to do with one's ability to perceive, as well as the best rigs ability to deliver all that is on the LP.
A Hi-Res download is from the Master-Tape, and should be close to identical. What I spoke of was almost ethereal; the sound was transferred on the Hi-Res, but not the emotional impact of the music; the music was stripped of it's emotional soul during the transfer.
With the right rig, in addition to the audio, there is an emotional component that is received in the sub-conscious which triggers all the memories, and experiences surrounding the music that is generated by the LP, that's not generated by the Hi-Res.
Intensity of listening is required to experience this.
But Geoff, we know that there IS something wrong with CDs, as well as with the playback machines that go with them. Haven't the issues with RBCD been hashed over ad infinitum? (If that's what you refer to when you use the term "CD".) High rez CDs of various types are certainly better than RBCD, if and only if the hi-rez technology was used during the recording process, which in itself suggests that the problems with RBCD that we can easily identify using science may also apply during the listening experience.
I used to listen to CDs if we were having a party or if I wanted to sit and read with music in the background. Now I don't even do that. LPs all the way. R2R tape is also superb, if I could afford the entry price and wanted to fiddle with it.
lewm6,686 posts01-27-2019 10:44amBut Geoff, we know that there IS something wrong with CDs, as well as with the playback machines that go with them. Haven’t the issues with RBCD been hashed over ad infinitum? (If that’s what you refer to when you use the term "CD".) High rez CDs of various types are certainly better than RBCD, if and only if the hi-rez technology was used during the recording process, which in itself suggests that the problems with RBCD that we can easily identify using science may also apply during the listening experience.
>>>>What I’ve been preaching the past few days on some other related threads is that problems with CD player constrain the CD from sounding like it should. Since I am one of the first to hear what CDs sound like when scattered laser light - including the invisible infrared portion which comprises most of it - is prevented from getting into the photodetector you’ll have to take my word for it. Obviously that’s not the only problem with CD players. And I’m taking about ANY digital player, SACD, DVD, BLU RAY and any variant of REDBOOK CD. CD players cannot cope very well with out of round CDs, scattered laser light, static electrical charge, magnetic fields, vibration caused by the transport mechanism or seismic vibration. I’m sure I’m forgetting others.
Lewm, I have been into R2R since the 70's, and loved every minute. I have a Technics RS 1500 2 track that's reliable and easy to work on. It's highly recommended and not too expensive.
I've thought of buying one used, then have the seller send it to be refurbished, discuss with those people how much would it take to make it like new, and go from there.
An LP recorded on a 2 track reel will sound even better on playback. If you have ever wanted R2R, now is the time; that's because blank tape is available.
Every medium has it’s own shortcomings. While tape has provided us with the bulk of our music recordings, that medium’s shortcomings are made crystal clear (no pun intended ;-) when compared to a direct-to-disk LP. Doug Sax made "safety copy" tape recordings from the same mixing desk console feed simultaneously with his d-2-d LP’s for his Sheffield Labs label releases, and the contrast is startling. As is the sound of those discs! I’ve never heard a tape recording with the immediacy, presence, transparency, and dynamics as a d-2-d LP played on a superior table/arm/cartridge.
But recording direct-to-disk is completely impractical for general use; an entire LP side has to be performed live, start to finish. A musician plays a bum note? A singer goes flat, or misphrases? Too bad. No "punching in", no overdubs, no remixing, no nuthin’!
My reel is the ultimate, it puts me in a trance, and I'm listening to records I recorded.
Here again, it might be about experience, the same as in TT's and LP's; I always change rollers in a timely fashion, clean heads and demagnetize; the sound is sparkling and powerful.
Why LP's sound better on 2 track playback is a mystery to me?
Man I just love open reel. There is still the problem with drop-outs, head cleaning etc. but man does it sound sweet, especially half track as mentioned by tomic601. That Revox machine is awesome. I have to admit that CD's are so damned convenient. I use a CEC belt drive transport to get the best sound that I can. This allows me convenience and in my estimation, that soulful experience mentioned. Not necessarily as soulful as tape mind you, but still good sound.
I remember drop-outs, but that's all; I haven't experienced one in ages. Maybe it's something different in the newer tape formulation.
I know this is going to sound like heresy, but I swear it's not easy telling CD's from LP's on playback. When you think of just how much the sound of a CD changes once it has been recorded on a 2 track reel; then you'll understand how much it has metamorphosized into an LP on playback.
All this talk about the reel has reminded me; "It's time to buy some more tape."
Beyond the sound of things, and into the soul of things.
I would have stopped there. Beautifully said.
Many, many roads. We can [perhaps foolishly] dissect differences but it is difficult to argue or question one's being moved. However he or she arrives there, into their very personal 'soul of things.'
The way I'm using the word "soul", is only remotely connected to "soul-music", but to what is projected in the best recordings and playback. Since I treated the room, people I saw live, seem to be in the room; I can even tell the age they were when the recording was made by the sound of their voices.
Aretha Franklin is 2 years younger than me, which means she was 21 when I saw her at a club in Detroit, and she sounds 21 on this double LP, which is a combination of what she recorded in 64 and 65.
I find those lyrics comical for a pretty 21 year old girl who had yet to gain weight; but that's what I'm talking about when speaking of living "soul"; it's like the artist has been re-created and is in your listening room.
Yeah tomic, Richard Thompson is one of the greats! Writes, sings, and plays guitar like no one else. I didn't catch up with him until his Shoot Out The Light album with Linda, but that album so knocked me out I got all his previous albums, and those of Fairport Convention when he was a member. He's one of those artists whose every album is, if not a must buy, at least a should buy.
Speaking of trying not to cry, Richard is a member of the gang paying tribute to Levon Helm at the 2012 Americana Awards Ceremony, performing "The Weight". Other participants are also amongst my favorite artists: Bonnie Raitt, Emmylou Harris, Buddy Miller, John Hiatt, Larry Campbell, Jim Lauderdale, Sam Bush, and Booker T.
One can of course use metaphorical expressions but ascribing
properties to not existent entity is curious business. One is
free to describe Pegasus as one like with whatever kind of
wings but we know that Pegasus does not exist in, uh, reality.
The soul has in this sense the same ''status'' as Pegasus. I assume
the analogy with our ''heart'' which seems to be the place where
our love coms from? The old Greek used what I call ''metal analogy''
such that our Lew can be described as ''honest as gold'' and
our chakster ''strong like iron''. This analogy imply constant
properties so even if Lew seduced the wife of his best friend
he will still be ''honest like gold'' while chakster even with broken legs
would be able to dance and jump.
Primitive people never wanted their pictures taken because when they saw a picture of their smiling faces, smiling back at them, they believed you had captured their soul.
When I hear my favorite artists at their best when they were young, I know I have captured their souls; that's because my rig brings them into the listening room.
There is so much talk of "live"; I have gone to concerts with audio not half as good as my listening room.
"Ascribing properties to nonexistent entities is curious business"?
I don't think so; if I have duplicated an event in my room, that is so real I can tell the age of the person when it was recorded, and I was there; I can perceive that person in my room, from a time in the past when they were at the height of their creative power.
It’s not only primitive people who are afraid or superstitious of cameras and photos. Have you seen peoples’ reactions to the Photos in the Freezer Tweak?
Music soothes the savage breast. Most things coming out of people’s speakers ain’t musical so nothin happens. Most of the time it’s two dimensional, thin, bland, compressed, no top end, no bottom end, congealed, like paper mache.
Orpheus, do I understand you correctly that you said you cannot tell the difference between CDs and LPs after you have recorded them onto tape and listen to them via your real to reel recorder? If I am correct, shouldn’t this be an indication that your tape system, however wonderful it may be, has the dominant coloration among your three modes of play back?
I also luxuriate in the sound of good vinyl at home. And believe me I can write swooning words about the experience as well...as I often have.
But I also enjoy digital.
A Hi-Res download is from the Master-Tape, and should be close to identical. What I spoke of was almost ethereal; the sound was transferred on the Hi-Res, but not the emotional impact of the music; the music was stripped of it’s emotional soul during the transfer.
The problem I have with this type of talk is that it *appears* you are moving from your own subjective preference to a more objective claim, even if nebulous, that the digital version did not capture the "soul-moving" aspects of the music.
But that’s your own response; not necessarily the response of other people. Massive numbers of people find themselves utterly moved by digitized music, and plenty of audiophiles would completely disagree insofar as they would be moved by the same digital digital music files that failed to move you.
I’ve sat beside other audiophiles swooning over the sound or the music through a system that utterly failed to move me, and visa versa.
As I’ve mentioned before, this is common in our audiophile world to have a strong personal emotional reaction or attachment to the way some equipment delivers sound, but then leverage that to more dubious claims about certain technology itself being "unable to capture or transmit" the moving or natural essence of the music, while they are really just talking about their own opinion, not some objective fact about the technology.
Let us examine the transformation of the music as it goes from the CD player, into the reel input amp, into the recording heads that reorient magnetic particles on tape. Once this is done, the playback of the tape is pure "analog"; there is no "digitalis" or any of the other terms that are used to describe CD.
The only way I can tell the difference between LP and CD is by record noise. CD's that are inherently bad don't get recorded; this did occur in the beginning.
"Coloration" or transformation; I have a problem with the word coloration, I choose the difference in the sound of the CD after "Transformation".
Prof, my language would seem to indicate that I have moved into the "supernatural realm"; however, my experience was, and still is what it is, in this time and dimension.
If I knew before hand, which was HI-RES download, and which was LP, that would give no credence to my statement, but I didn't.
These things happen, that can't rationally be explained, when you get to the very end game of HEA.
I'm not trying to give anybody a snow job, I've paid 30 years of my life to get where I am. If you notice, I did not mention money, because that's secondary; it was whatever it took.
I enjoy digital every bit as much as you; I've just taken it to a higher level by placing it in the "analog realm" through the use of a reel.
All innuendos aside, I stick CD's in a player and listen to them when I'm in a hurry, and they sound very good.
I know you weren’t going all woo-woo and were reporting a real experience. I’ve compared some of my best digital albums with their vinyl counterpart, and preferred the vinyl.
And of course a different technology can result in a different sound.
I’m just pointing out that it’s a leap to go from our own personal preference to "therefore the technology itself is incapable of X."The other technology is fully capable of X for many other people.
no lack of SOUL
Ascribing properties to nonexistent entities
But I also enjoy digital.
transformation... moved into the "supernatural realm"
going all woo-woo
Cat Food For Thought...A Plethora of Quantum States....Yes, it does apply. : )
From: NATURE PHOTONICS | VOL 13 | FEBRUARY 2019 | 110–115 |
Prof, we're on the same page; "
"I’m just pointing out that it’s a leap to go from our own personal preference to "therefore the technology itself is incapable of X."The other technology is fully capable of X for many other people."
What I posted went beyond audio in a vacuum; my life experiences were interwoven, but they were triggered by the LP and not the Hi-Res drawdown. Of course someone else would have to participate in order to consider that post valid.
The title of this thread is about what makes you a human being; different from all other beings before you, and all of those who will go after you.
A very long time ago, an old man who had become a good friend was retiring; he told me, "Orpheus, you gotta get what you can, when you can, while you can, cause when you get my age, you "Kan't", and the only things you will remember, is what you didn't get."
That was ages ago, but to this very day, every word he spoke rings true.
When I was young, life was offered up like a banquet every day, "A little of this, a little of that, and don't forget a dab of the other thing."
That's the way life went for many years, until one day I looked up and I was old. Now my life is memories of the life I lived that are incited by HEA. Consequently, it's not easy to tell whether or not it's the memory or the music.
''Ascribing properties to not existing entity is curious business''.
''Not so'' according to 'super natural' orpheus. That is to say
that the question about existence is not relevant.
We in Europe spend billions for the so called Cern large collider
in order to answer the question about existence of Higgs particle.
All physicist knew what this particle means for the theory but
nobody knew if this particle exist. Without this particle the
physics would be different.
We could save enormous amount of money by following orpheus
opinion that existence is question of belief.
Nandric, I don't have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about; it might be related to "Plutonian Physics"; that pertains to the laws of physics as they operate on that planet; stuff could fall up instead of down.
I was discussing "perception" of the sound stage in HEA, which is based on "The Propagation of Sound Waves"; that's physics on this planet, and if you could see the sound waves you would know that it's real. The common name for this phenomenon is "room treatment".
Beyond the sound of things, and into the soul of things, describes my perception of specific pieces of music that project a living presence if you have HEA and a room that is capable of "Audio Holography"; that's an invisible audio image that puts the artists in your listen room on a 3D sound stage.
When "high end salons" existed, one could walk in and hear this phenomenon for themselves. Since that's no longer the case, there are many who don't believe such a thing exists; primarily because they have been unable to achieve it.
Although this phenomenon makes what I'm discussing more palpable, you can experience the "soul" of the music I have chosen on a good "mid-fi" rig.
Since you're from Europe, I realize it's quite possible that you will not be able to perceive the "Soul" in this tune, although it's got plenty plenty soul; but "unseen" is the nature of soul.
Enjoy; "Beyond the sound of things, and into the soul of things."
@orpheus10 nice tune
I always feel like i am on the stage with these guys when i listen to original japanese pressing of Ramsey Lewis Trio, this tune is mind blowing. The US press is cheap as chips and must be nice too, but i only have Japanese press with absolutely superb sound quality.
Be it sight, sound, the smell, the touch.
Inside that we need so much,
The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound,
Or the strength of an Oak with roots deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers, to be covered, and then to burst up,
Thru tarmack, to the sun again,
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing,
To lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing,
To have all these things in our memories hoard,
And to use them,
To help us,
Geoffkait, what the world needs now is more poetry like this;
To lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing,
To have all these things in our memories hoard,
I really like that picture, and I have memories of grass singing.
Shortly after we were born, there is a good possibility we were exposed to music. What kind of music would depend on where we were born; someone born in the swamps of Louisiana would be exposed to a different genre than someone born in metropolitan Chicago.
After we discovered we could wiggle our toes, we heard music, and a beat that we could wiggle our toes to; we were really on to something. Naturally, that was the best music in the world, it resonated our tiny souls.
Now that you're an Audiophile, you can recreate that same music in your listening room with such an astounding degree of realism, that when it contains "soul" (that's the component in music that causes your heart to palpitate, and it makes you feel good) it resonates with your soul.
This genre of music was determined a long time ago, and although it varies from person to person, the subject of conversation here; is the ability of one's rig to project that emotional component of the music I call "soul"; which by the way can be in any genre of music; it could be "hill billy" soul, in which case you would want to stomp your feet, instead of tapping your toes, and I'm sure there is another name for this component in "hill-billy" vernacular, but a rose by any other name is still a rose.
I contend that vinyl, or master tape, projects this intensely personal element of music better than any other source. As a matter of fact, the cartridge is the only component in the chain that resonates with your personal soul, and it should be chosen with great care, that is specifically for this purpose. For these reasons, the cartridge is the most important element in the chain that reproduces music.