Graphene-spiked silly putty picks up human pulse. Nature.com
I wasn't spreading nonsense or lies.
I wasn't spreading nonsense or lies.
Beware of new material claims - the case of graphene
Given that graphene is quite the in vogue material for audio applications I wonder how many (if any) of the vendors selling this are actually sourcing the real thing?
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2018/10/11/graphene-you-dont-get-what-you-pay-for
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2018/10/11/graphene-you-dont-get-what-you-pay-for
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Graphene is being sold in bulk to specialty applications. In bulk, it 's relatively inexpensive. Here are three examples Graphene in solution single layer https://www.amazon.com/Single-Layer-Graphene-Oxide-Aqueous-Dispersion/dp/B00EE0XPNQ/ref=sr_1_23?ie=U... Graphine in power https://www.amazon.com/Angstron-Materials-N008-P-40-Graphene-Powder/dp/B00OYAM1O0/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8... Graphine in a tennis racket https://www.amazon.com/HEAD-Graphene-360-Speed-Racquet/dp/B07F22Z16W/ref=sr_1_24?ie=UTF8&qid=154... I suspect that PPS doesn't pay much for their graphene either (or SR) but there's the other components and design which should be paid for in their final products. Despite the lack of an scientific or engineering explanation of how PPS and SR works. I buy the products because they work. |
The amount of crap in this thread outweighs the graphene available. In contrast to “tons” being manufactured and “commercial availability” for some years. Readers of this should review the “real news” that MIT (university), with support from the Navy and Dept of Defense, developed a method to manufacture sheets of Real Graphene that may allow mass production. They were able to create a sheet of graphene about 10 ft long. This breakthrough was in April 2018. The nonsense in this thread is pathetic. Disappointing that people resort to lies when most of us just want to learn and share facts. The big question ? Will these posters ever grow up. ??? |
Here’s a list of graphene patents and their applications: https://patents.google.com/patent/US9431346 There are all electrical applications and involve circuits. It’s more than just marketing. All the best, Nonoise |
The thing about graphene is that a lot of its amazing properties are only valid when you have continuous perfect sheets of it- something that as far as I know is impossible at the moment. It has a very high electron mobility, but that works out to produce a resistivity of about 10nohm.m in bulk, and that's only if you can make a perfect multilayer structure that maintains the properties of a single sheet. This is only about 40% better than copper which is 16.8nohm.m, and that's easy to make nearly perfect. That conductivity is not maintained if the sheets in the multilayer structure have dislocations. So why is it better than copper? |
@asvjerry "Don't Drink the Graphene!" "one-molecule strand across a doorway would slice one in half" WOW! You just gave them two wonderful, or not so wonderful, new ideas for the use of Graphene: A Powdered Graphene Supplement to mix with ones breakfast drink and Invisable Killer Thread. I think you're on to something......Jim |
"Don't Drink the Graphene!" Wonderful.....reminds me of a sci-fi novel whereas the trap of a one-molecule strand across a doorway would slice one in half. The unlucky mortal who blundered into it wouldn't realize the damage until they bent over, or did a sudden movement... *thump* "Ouch..." *void*.... |
@ geoffkait That was an interesting and impressive video. Samsung is developing the use of graphene to produce a rapid charge battery. Utilizing graphene as a micro coating on a chip or in a battery is expensive, extensive, processes but is showing great promise in the production of some incredible products. Although labs are developing processes to curl mono-atomic (2D) graphene sheets, into micro 3D spheres and strands, also shows great promise, companies producing tons of stuff they claim to be graphene powder, to be used to add a bit of magic to everything from condoms to hair spray - leaves me more than a little skeptical.....Jim |
100% geoff. I've known about graphene for at least five or six years. Many start-up companies tout their investment value in future graphene medical uses (too many small companies for me to invest in). There's so much graphene around, just look at the cheap prices on Amazon by the gallon. Despite only a "claim" in using graphene, SR and PP are doing something right in their products because they work GREAT! I'll trust two totally different companies "claiming" graphene use with great results before wanting proof of graphene in their products. |
China is technically underrated. In fact, they hold the current distance record for quantum teleportation. They are also rather adept at making iPhones and iPads. All tennis racquets are made in China, including Head Graphene racquets. Besides, nobody says you have to buy Graphene from China as there is a boatload of countries involved in mass production. Duh! Everybody wants a piece of the action. |
An example of high output Graphene production plant. Graphene production plant in China. Chinese materials company opens new graphene plant in Heilongjiang Chinese coke company Baotailong New Materials has completed construction of a USD$9.6 million graphene production project in the north of the country and has launched trial-stage operations. Baotailong completed all work on the facility located in its hometown of Qitaihe in northern Heilongjiang province at the end of last month, the firm said in a statement. The plant boasts an annual graphene output of 50 tons. Graphene production plant in Canada. NanoXplore logoCanada-based NanoXplore recently announced a positive feasibility study for its graphene production plant. The company said that the independent feasibility study highlighted several improvement as compared to the project’s preliminary economic assessment (PEA). NanoXplore is planning to build a 10,000 metric ton/year graphene production plan, which is currently the largest in the world. NanoXplore plans to offer graphene for $10/kg (USD$8/kg) starting from Jan 2020 under the GrapheneBlack brand. and, Graphene-Info, based in Israel, claims graphene is “set to revolutionize a lot of industries, including sensors, batteries, conductors, displays, electronics, energy generation, medicine and more.” The Home of Graphene from the University of Manchester has a marvelous video explaining graphene and its endless possible applications. There are some 100 pure graphene companies (about 15 are public) largely sustained by joint partnerships and investments, i.e., support from legacy corporations, mining companies, government investments, and venture funds. These start-ups are financially risky with sparse sales and no profits. Three years ago, The Graphene Council warned investors, beware of “graphene play” stock investments that may be scam companies. Nevertheless, graphene research and development is turning into an exciting new industry with potential for changing the manufacture of products and their sustainability. Israeli researchers are also investigating graphene’s value. For example, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev and University of Western Australia researchers have developed a new process for use in energy storage and other material applications that is faster, potentially scalable and surmounts some of the current graphene production limitations. Yaniv Katan, a scientist at Technion, worked on an international team of scientists discovering new ways to turn electricity into light using graphene. |
ptss @geoffkait Yah. And spiders webs are stronger than steel too - and so what. If spiders webs could be produced in labs there’d be “tons” of marketing hype. And they would already be in use to “rigiditize” speaker cones. Yes, we need a new marketing word for any serious scam :). And Geoff - please identify just how many “tons” of graphene are being produced,where and by what company. The universities and research labs would love to know where to pick it up cheap. You could become useful to science! ;) (not) >>>>>If a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his rear end so much. Before you show your ignorance and start whining doesn’t it make more sense to spend a few minutes and do some due diligence? When you ass-u-me something you make a fool out of me and Uma Thurman. |
@geoffkait Yah. And spiders webs are stronger than steel too - and so what. If spiders webs could be produced in labs there’d be “tons” of marketing hype. And they would already be in use to “rigiditize” speaker cones. Yes, we need a new marketing word for any serious scam :). And Geoff - please identify just how many “tons” of graphene are being produced,where and by what company. The universities and research labs would love to know where to pick it up cheap. You could become useful to science! ;) (not) |
@fleschler "Okay, but I stand by whatever Tim Mrock uses in his Omega E-Mats, SR duplexes and SR fuses they all claim have graphene in them." The word which destroys the valid argument is CLAIM. Where is the proof? You cannot put 2D atomic level graphene into a liquid, and claim to have the same properties as a one level atomic sheet grafted onto a silicon base. It is not a trivial exercise to slice a one atom thick layer of Graphene which as a potential product is expensive and is still in the development stage of being applied to electronics. You can claim you have (the true atom thin) graphene, but proof is "proprietary" or "patent pending". Even as a fine talc powder in a solution, it is not true atom level Graphene. |
Jhills By very deffinition, Graphene is a micro thin layer (acording to guidocorona, a mono-atomic, layer) of carbon. That’s what makes it Graphene and what allows it’s extreme qualities. It can’t be gooped up in a solution with something else and still be considered Graphene, or expected to posess the qualities of Graphine (spelling). Just sayn: Beware or fraudulent and perposterous claims.....Jim >>>>There are many ways to employ Graphene in things without having to deal with nanoscale material. As they have done with contact enhancer, tennis racquets, bicycle racing tires, bicycle frames, Graphene cables. You have to be able to use your, you know...🧠 Don’t be such a big baby. By the way, Djokovic has been playing with Head Graphene tennis racquets for several years. Doesn’t seem to hurt his game. He’s ranked no. 2. Maybe it’s placebo effect. 😬 |
...not wanting to potentially toss an 'accelerant' onto embers, But... A cohort and I got excited (briefly) over 'graphene' as a speaker cone, until certain practicalities prevailed: -cost -source -How does one handle an object 1 molecule thick?! *L* 2 mil Al or Ti is problematic enough...sure, it's supposed to be 'all the Good Stuff, But....adhesives, forming, and WTH would it look like? My 'jury' still out....to lunch, to the pool, anywhere else for the time being. I'm interested, but when a company that's selling a 3D carbon fiber printer can't form anything thin enough for a prototype.... Like class D amps.....there's going to be a period of growth before we can admire 'Practical Magic'. Just saying...;)....MHO....I'll go away now... |
Actually geoff, twas not guidocorona refering to Total Contact's claim of their product being a superconductor: @fleschler Total Contact uses graphene; however, it has a proprietary other product in it that allows it to be a super conductor per the manufacturer as well as a process which melds the two to work concurrently. By very deffinition, Graphene is a micro thin layer (acording to guidocorona, a mono-atomic, layer) of carbon. That's what makes it Graphene and what allows it's extreme qualities. It can't be gooped up in a solution with something else and still be considered Graphene, or expected to posess the qualities of Graphine. Just sayn: Beware or fraudulent and perposterous claims.....Jim |
Oh... Like in "this here graphite thingie makes 'em 'lectrons go real goodly"?! Yeah, may be, but the word superconductor has a very precise meaning in physics.... And misuse of "superconductor" "graphene", and other such neo-trending words in marketing communications/advertisings leads consumers to trusting in pseudo-scientific fantasies. G.
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Several comments on Graphene. Total Contact uses graphene; however, it has a proprietary other product in it that allows it to be a super conductor per the manufacturer as well as a process which melds the two to work concurrently. In the SR Fuses, my amps have the 8 amp Blue SR fuses where the amps are rated for 5 amp fuses. The manufacturer installed 5 amp breakers in place of his fuses. The result is indistinguishable sonic differences. Apparently, there is great validity in the fact the larger contact area of the fuse has a positive effect on the sound through transmission of more signal. So, while the Blue SR fuse sounds great, so does a cheap metal breaker in its place. |
It’s obviously much more difficult to produce and apply “real” two dimensional graphene. But what’s not clear is that there are also apparently advantages to 2, 3, 4, 5 layer Graphene, which is apparently easier to mass produce, at least I suspect it is, but multi layer Graphene is not quite the super material as “real” Graphene. But it might work very well and be less hassle. So, one should probably not be quite so suspicious, that’s all I’m saying. Obviously Graphene as applied to Tennis racquets, bike frames, bicycle tires, and Graphene cables the Graphene in question is not two dimensional Graphene but something else. Ditto for the new Graphene speaker diaphrams from Canada. They are Graphene composites, not real Graphene. Graphene is the new carbon fiber, that’s all. |
@folkfreak I'm totally with you! I was being sarcastic. I don't think that we should assume everything is bunk... but I am a complete skeptic on most things "tweaky". Any outrageous claim could be bunk or could be reality. However, what about the unintended impact? Graphene is a good example. Someone in the forum who is often overly hyperbolic about tweaks extolls the virtue of this wondrous new tweak. It solves every problem in the world of audio. A veil is lifted. Yeah, okay... What's the negative? 1. Expensive. (of course) 2. Not able to really verify what it is. (as you note above) 3. Not really tested in the long term. (try to get this stuff off! How long does it last?) 4. Highly conductive, so if it spills or happens to be on a little too much... immediate short. (what happens if it drips inside your nice piece of gear?) Now, do you think his hyperbole highlighted any of these items? Absolutely not. So, in those ways, I'm a skeptic, and I want to know more before I go plunk down my benjamins on graphene, mystery cones, battery powered interconnects, jewels to hang on the wall, or any of these other snake oil tweaks. In fact, if the post or ad says anything about "tweak", I know I have to dig further, or file it in the goofball round file. |
Graphene is not a mono-molecule layer of carbon... It is instead a mono-atomic layer of carbon, arranged in a hexagonal latice... There are no molecules per se in graphene, but the entire graphene sheet or micro-sheet, be it bound to a substrate or free-standing, can be deemed to be a cristal or a crystal fragment. G.
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Geoff -- to quote your original posting on this thread Given that real Graphene is (defined as) one molecule thick and that layer upon layer of Graphene is really no longer Graphene, but still might be better than X, one imagines lots of care is required when making, handling and applying product. On the other hand Graphene has been used in certain tennis racquets for at least five years and is recently showing up in road bike tires. So, most likely by now some Graphene production is top notch. For the DIYer, well, you can always resort to the tape method. My point was to agree with you -- be careful about claims of "real" i.e. monolayer graphene, that's all ... |
@soundermn correct -- one has to assume that everything that is claimed in audio is bunk, let our ears judge and leave the marketing sales pitch in the dustbin where it belongs The point of posting a link from a well regarded authority in the field in which I earn a living, was to observe that if expert chemists, with access to the necessary tools and assays to measure what they are being sold, are using material that is not what it claims to be what hope can we have that what wen mere audio fools are getting is anything it claims to be ... none of which says that I for one am not pleased with what "graphene" based offerings do for my system, just that I'm not pretending I understand what or why they work |
Is the OP suggesting that there could be people or companies involved in audio who sell something to people claiming it's one thing, while in actuality it isn't? Do you really think that someone could make false claims about something in audio? No! Say it isn't so! I'm sure their conscience would get the best of them. Wouldn't it? ;-) |
As far as I know, only ORA sound in Canada actually produce "real" molecule-thick graphene for audio diaphragms. https://www.ora-sound.com |
Synergistic research has been making $$ on the Graphene s name coating them on the conductors in their fuses and going sky high on the price per fuse $150 each. I will admit they are the best ones I have used luckily only 1in my integrated amp. i see coatings to you can buy. The Synergistic purifiers forspeakers have Graphene a bit . And a small improvement. the hype is a bit much and way over used to extract much more $$. If you get a 30-60 money back guarantee fine. If not Don’t take the chance. |
