Another streaming newbie

@big_greg  Thank you so much!

I stream with Qobuz using an iPhone 6s to an Audioengine B1 connected to a tube preamp. 
I’ve tried Pandora, Apple, Spotify and Tidal but presently am using Qobuz and prefer the sound quality even at lower steaming settings.

The Audioengine B1 is a cheap entry to streaming but sounds very good to me..

Oh wow guys. Lot of great input since I last looked. But I was up at crack of dawn to go to grocery store and will read more carefully, reply
later. Back to bed! 

So many choices, so many options, I went through this streaming delimia awhile back also.
I was after ease of use and a wide selection of streaming services. Also to intergrate whatever I decided on with my existing old school stereo rig. I already have a good external DAC so my hunt was a little easier.I also didn't want to break the back in the process. It's not mentioned, but I came across the Audiolab 6000N that uses:
Play-Fi
https://play-fi.com/  for the software interface
and it does have an internal DAC : ES9018 Sabre32 Reference chip. It does not have a display, but 6 preset buttons. and its also wi fi ready, and for $600 it dies exactly what I want in a streamer. It won What Hi Fi streamer of the year award for what's that's worth

Agee with Bluesound Node Ci the interface is very intuitive, the DAC sounds great thru my vintage Sherwood HP2000 (last of the American built Sherwoods) and my B&W 702 S2's.

Do you mind explaining this one a bit more?  I don't think the analog analogy is the best one to use here since we are talking digital and ones and zeros.  The reason a high end cdp cost so much mostly the dac, you can only do so much with the rest of the internals to improve sound-wise.  

Using a great UI with proper connections with an upgraded DAC doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as you are suggesting but if it is I would like to know why.

Some have suggested buying a Bluesound and an external DAC. If you like the Bluesound app and the Bluesound's features, an external DAC can provide better sound quality.  

But like the rest of your system, everything matters. If you're looking for the best sound quality, skip the Bluesound.  

Adding an expensive DAC to the Bluesound is kind of like putting a $1,000 cartridge on a $500 turntable. Sure, it'll sound better than the stock cart it came with, but you won't come close to what that $1,000 cartridge is capable of, because the turntable isn't up to the task.

Only your ears can tell you if something sounds good enough.  The 2i has received many positive reviews and you can start there with the confidence most everyone here has expressed.  Both Tidal and Qobuz have trial offers and can be run on the BlueOS from your phone.  I grew up with vinyl and always loved the discography and gatefold covers.  Qobuz does a great job of providing artist and songwriter info and for me was the reason I chose Qobuz. Based on your genre selections and albums selections they recommend albums and play lists.  I have not felt like spending more for ROON (yet).   At first I thought I wanted Tidal because MQA sounded great and the file sizes were smaller (less broadband cost).  What I found out was I have never used more than 25% of my monthly broadband playing hi-rez files from Qobuz and it sounds great.  Give your current system a chance.  First things to consider are better RCA interconnects and power cord.  Upgrading is "a dish best served cold" if you get my drift.

Ah, hell, no going back to sleep!

@headphonedreams @richtruss @djones51 I spent hours last night looking at raspberry pi based players. I have a little diy in me (Lenox, phono pre, subwoofer which all work great, great value and sound) so. Seems aloo is in Bangalore India (where I have been!) and may be pretty shut down for now. But my daughter’s very serious boyfriend is an engineer and we might even build player and dac. (TBD!) Which breaks all my rules I set out. Question: so the ipad/iPhone ((Surface? I have a surface, wife has iPad) connects to the player ... how? The player has Ethernet cable in, but how do controller/player talk?

@big_greg I take your point re Bluesound. The key to my current system working is all the pieces fit nicely. I actually bought/sold some more expensive gear because it didn’t mesh. I sort of have to balance convenience vs quality vs cost. As I learn I have of course gone back and forth on this and unclear where I will land. A part of me says start w/bluesound and see - easiest pathway, but I am betting it would be like training wells. 
@macrojack I have the M10 on my spreadsheet of options, looked up the blue book for my vtl (worth more now than I paid for it 15 yrs ago!) But two real questions. First I am not dumping my phone preamp that I built! I don’t care if it’s great or awful. I built it plus Lenco and am totally attached to them. I even debated selling all my vinyl rig/albums but no! No! Too sentimental. Second: putting this system together- it’s a ‘system’ that works together. I had other tube amps along the way and never liked them. (But regret selling the Granite monoblocks!) So how a new major piece would sound to me is a big question. There’s just no way to know. But the simplicity is a big plus. So it’s on the spreadsheet and still in play. The other point I keep thinking is if I got this streaming rig really good, I know the table would not get a lot of play. So there is that, too. 
Good thing we’re in the middle of a @$#% pandemic. Lot of time to chew on this! 

I also suggest trying a Bluesound Node 2i.  It only costs $550 and it is a great place to start.  I talked to the manufactures rep and it appears they came up with a design that is a good as a unit costing three times as much.  I don't care what people say, I can hear the difference MQA.  It sounds they it was intended to sound.  Just wish I knew more about how it was developed.  Perhaps someone can explain this to me.  This hobby continues to be fascinating.  Everyone has different ears and it is great there are so many choices.  The only thing I can't understand is I receive hundreds of home listings from a local real estate agent and I have yet to see a pair of speakers sitting in a room.  People are willing to listen to the speakers on the TV, yet they have a $5,000 entertainment center the TV is sitting on.  If they only knew how sound imparts 80% of the experience.

At the risk of sounding like captain obvious, there's a less traveled option with increased mobility but it does have some sound quality limitations on your home hifi

Since you've already connected your iphone to your preamp, you're in essence using your iphone as the streamer

Look into the low cost USB attached DACs that will work with your iphone

I use the AudioQuest Dragonfly, $300 and it will achieve bit perfect playback

You can come out of the Dragonfly wired into headphones, your car stereo or your home  preamp

The headphone is handy for comparing and testing the different streaming file formats

It transformed the sound in my car.  I stream Tidal via cell service played through the Dragonfly that's attached AUX to the car stereo

Everyone thinks I got a new system in my car

Lots of little gymnastics to get to full MQA rendering and playback but pretty sweet once you connect all the dots

It took 6 months but the streaming convenience eventually pushed me over the edge to upgrade my primary home system

Primary drivers were the sound quality of the hi-res streaming formats and the convenience of changing out the music from a chair using a handheld device

I added a PS Audio DSD with the network bridge and cabled it to my internet router. Built a Roon server on a PC using an iphone as the content end point and user interface, subscribed to Tidal and QoBuz for content

I sit in my listening chair with 35 million songs at my fingertips using the  iphone to select content

Sound quality is exceptional, the convenience of changing content from the hand held device is fantastic and I haven't bought a CD or album since converting

The new releases come out on Tidal and QoBuz

Needless to say, I'm finally a streaming convert

Hope this helps

The player has Ethernet cable in, but how do controller/player talk?

Your  iPad and surface are on the same network as the player(whichever one you choose). You download an app, for instance on the iPad if you use Node2i you go to app store and download bluOS it finds the Node2i on the network which you use to control it. 

Do you mind explaining this one a bit more?  I don't think the analog analogy is the best one to use here since we are talking digital and ones and zeros.  The reason a high end cdp cost so much mostly the dac, you can only do so much with the rest of the internals to improve sound-wise.  

Using a great UI with proper connections with an upgraded DAC doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as you are suggesting but if it is I would like to know why.

It's a pretty easy to understand analogy isn't it?  How about trying to build something on a less than great foundation?  Does that make more sense to you?

I'm not saying the Bluesound is bad, far from it.  For its price it's a wonderful product and delivers very good sound quality.  Nor did I say that adding a good DAC to it is "bad".  It's not.  There's just a better way to about getting better sound from streaming, which is what you're after if you're going to add a DAC to a device that already has one, right?

Go read the other "streaming newbie" thread that spun off this one.  You'll see that a lot of people have done that and see little to no improvement in sound quality.

Upgrading to a better streamer/DAC (the TEAC NT-505) resulted in a much greater improvement in sound quality, not to mention soundstage, than adding a $3500 DAC to the Bluesound. 

I don't know the exact "why" of it, since as you said, "it's just ones and zeros", but I know what I heard.  Spending less than $2K plus recovering a few hundred from the sale of my Node 2 was also a better deal from a cost/performance standpoint than buying a Bluesound and an external DAC.

@chuckccs I started out with the Node 2 because I wanted to dip my toes into streaming and see if I liked it.  I also got a good deal on the Node 2 because the Node 2i had just come out and ended up getting most of my money back on the Bluesound when I replaced it.  That's not a bad way to start, but if sound quality matters, you'll probably end up doing an upgrade at some point. 

It sounds like you've already embraced the world of opportunity that streaming will open up to you, so my advice would be to make an investment that you'll be happy with right away.

PS: this is so much fun to talk about and learn. Midnight last night I’m reading schematics and discussions by engineers re diy dac’s - totally over my head on a good day, but bleary-eyed at midnight... ha. 
I am getting such a great education from you guys. It feels like most of the options that are in the ball park of my needs are on the table. At least in theory I have a clue, see mainly what the major pieces are and how they fit. But sound is so subjective. Just no way to know till you plug it in and play it in my system. 

I had a Node2i and I thought it worked very well with an external DAC. The DAC in the Node2i measures lousy and to me didn't sound all that great. I have been assembling computers for years since old 386 processors and when I read Roon could run on a put it together yourself NUC that's  the route I took. I wasn't  going to spend a couple thousand on a Nucleus especially when the Roon OS is free. I also put together a raspberry pi4 running Ropiee as an endpoint and connect it by USB to my integrated amp. I would rather run the Roon OS called ROCK than a regular computer since the OS is optimized for Roon and music playback. There is no GUI you configure it through a web base interface and it runs headless. If you decide on Roon that's the route I would go if I wasn't intimidated putting a few components together. 

From what I have read on the referenced thread below the Teac NT-505 seems to have its share of quality problems at this time.  I would consider waiting until the bugs are worked out before purchasing one.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/teac-nt-505-impossible-connecting-to-wifi-router-o-such-lan-h...

I use Amazon Music HD. Been using since it started late last year and happy with it. Seems like they've been increasing their library of hi-res music. Have a family plan so everyone can use on their phones. Wife is happy she can find Italian and Russian music she likes and have a kids playlist with disney songs.  

Went through similar experience you're having. Started by picking a music service. First priority was had to be hi-res, was aware of only Tidal, Qobuz, and Amazon Music HD.

Second criteria was music availability. Searched through their libraries for different genres/styles I liked. Tidal and Qobuz were lacking some music I liked but Amazon had almost everything so went with Amazon.  

I ended there but next step would have been to do free trials to evaluate software usability/functionality.

After picking music service started looking for compatible streamer. My big gripe with Amazon is not many streamers support it and the ones that do like Bluesound, to my understanding, don't have full functionality for things like editing playlists. So I never bought a streamer. Currently using a Topping D50s DAC which has a built-in hi-res bluetooth receiver (Apt-x HD), and I'm happy enough with this setup (my phone also supports hi-res bluetooth). Will use this till a streamer I like comes out and connect that to my DAC, but in no rush.

Ok, wild question, breaking all my rules. Chewing on Schitt Yggdrasil GS DAC (older analog card, can be upgraded later) + Allo Digione Signature Player.  Thinking being the player is a placeholder to honor my budget and players/streamers are where things are really dynamic.  The GS doesn't do MQA and other stuff, but what it does do, it does very well.  

It this nuts?  

Both the Yggy and the Allo are well reviewed pieces with strong followings and reputation for good value for the money quotients.  I have no hands on experience with either.  My question is what do you intend to do for the OS for the Allo .... Volumio ... Roon ... Other?   What is your roadmap for where you want to go?  Once you got that figured out and what fits into your budget, then everything else falls into place.

I'm currently running a Node 2i into some pretty decent gear. For the price, I really think you should pick one up and give it a spin. There is a reason they are so popular and being recommended here over and over again. 

That being said, I'm getting rid of mine. Mine is having a hard time finding my local music stored on my SSD. I'm sure I could figure it out if I really wanted to, but I (sort of) enjoy putting new pieces of gear in and out of the chain. Since you would just be streaming, this doesn't affect you.
I'm only posting to give you the options that I'm looking at as they differ.

The CA 851N is a streamer/dac/pre that has garnered a lot of great press and was just recently discontinued. They can be had for around $1K and I'm fairly sure you would be pleased with the sound quality. 
https://www.whathifi.com/us/cambridge-audio/azur-851n/review

My other route is just a streamer that I add the dac/pre to.
The Pro-ject Streambox Ultra s2 is based off the Rasb Pi but has been made with strictly music as the intended goal. 
This has also been highly reviewed. They are $850 from the audio resellers, but there are several of them for sale new on ebay for $450.
https://darko.audio/2019/03/have-your-pi-eat-it-pro-jects-stream-box-s2-ultra/

Best of luck and happy hunting.

@jazzman I am still trying to figure out this level of detail...But I saw a video of how you can download the various OS onto that external storage. I am thinking Roon playing Qobuz (from what everyone says... this is all still pretty abstract to me).  But I am thinking the Schitt piece is really good and is probably the anchor.  I also am replacing our router and getting decent Ethernet cable. 

Chuckccs- your better dacs have a network interface or i2s. Any computer/3rd party streamer with attached disks will be noisy plus most users with computers/streamers in the audio room use usb which is a flawed interface, even when you tweak it out with the many different products on the market. Sure, people will tell you to get a nas or use ssd, both unnecessary. 
My ps audio ds sr dac has a network interface and roon allows this to be an endpoint So thru my iPad/iPhone, I can direct my music to the ds dac or any of my other 6 endpoints in my house. Very simple with the best sq.

Along with everyone else get. A bluesound 2i get used to it then get seperate DAC once you feel the music and can tell how it improves and changes. The 2i is brilliant for the money and I'm using with tidal masters into Luxman 550ax2 and tannoy arden... No complaints

COCKTAIL AUDIO X-45 MAYBE KNOWN AS NOVATRON
All you'd need to future proof.

If you are looking to dip your toes into the streaming pond, you could do worse that the Bluesound Node 2i.   I transitioned from vinyl to streaming and started with the Node 2i. I was very happy with it, especially with the app.  I liked it so much I upgraded to the PowerNode 2i.  
I did not see it specifically mentioned  in this forum, but make sure the Node or PowerNode is a 2”i” and not just the older model “2”.  The newer model 2i has better Bluetooth connectivity.  Also, if you settle on the PowerNode 2i, get the model with the HDMI connection; you can always incorporate it into a 2-channel surround sound video system.  
BTW, Steve Guttenberg reviewed the Node 2i this morning:

https://youtu.be/F31RAuvik8g

Used Lumin U1 mini or Innous Mini 3 + Schiit Bifrost Multibit dac should b a combo that provides u w very good streaming quality.  Good luck.

I started on this journey long ago (tech years). Spotify then Deezer and then a shoot out Twix Tidal and Qobuz. I thought Qobuz edged out Tidal, no MQA for me, High Rez Qobuz (24/96) is enough.

Started with Sonos, Then added external DAC, Then modified the Sonos each step picking up improved SQ. Currently sitting at a Bryston BDP Pi as a Roon end point with a Wadia DAC. This managed by a Roon Core running On my iMac.

Glad to hear you are considering a Raspberry Pi. That’s what my Bryston is based on and I think it sounds great. The Bryston Pi is a pricy piece at $1.4k. But if you keep your eye out you can’t get them for half that. I found mine on USA audio mart for less than $600. Build your own sounds fun , good project for a retired guy and an engineer consultant close by. My local dealer here has a demo Chord DAC for around $1.5K so if you could do a combo like that you would be in around $2K. Then if you add a Roon core running on your network you get the immersive user management console. All for a pretty cheap price. My next step will be to get rid of this noisy ass iMAC and add a dedicated Sonic Transport to run the Roon Core.

I see a few mentions for Roon, but no one has mentioned Audirvana. I tried both and for the money, Audiravana was my choice. Mostly, because it streams FLAC and most other formats directly from my iMac to my Oppo BD103 and sounds pretty good to me. It doesn't use Airplay, so the sound isn't limited to 16/44. It has a decent interface and a solid iPhone app as well. It might be something to check into as well.

My advice. You are playing vinyl now. Stick with it. I use my Raspberry Pi streamer with Qobuz to discover new music I want on vinyl. Occasionally I listen critically to Qobuz, but really vinyl holds my attention the most. My suggestion. Pick up a Bluesound Node 2 or 2i. Then get a Topping D90 or DX7 Pro. This will come very close to $1k. The DACs listed are some of the best measuring and performing that you can by at 4 times the price! Then see what moves you more. If streaming, then upgrade this system. If still vinyl, then you are set!

I purchased a Denon DNP 800 NE refurbished online last month for $369. I figured that is a great way to dip my toes into streaming. So far I am very happy with it. At some point I may upgrade, but for now am very happy I went this direction instead of all in on separate audio streamer and dac. This would be very similar to the bluesound node.

Ok, first decision made. Ordering Schitt Yggradsil GS DAC tomorrow.  Still chewing on player, and initially will just run iphone into Ygg USB.  I think it is the modular/upgrade design plus value position ($1600 new) that got my attention.  I mean, no way to know if it'll mesh, so we'll see.  Clearly I am going to bust right thru that $2k ceiling. Ha. What else is new? 

@mikethehunterguy... I thought of that same approach you suggested, but truth is I like the thought of driving music from a chair, no disc washing, less wear on the vinyl, etc, etc.  Pandemic laziness has set in. 

I have had Tidal for over a year running with Bluesound 2i into Primaluna Pre and Ayre 5Vxe to Dynaudio Special 40s. MQA does make diff regardless what people say. Two downsides - MQA selection is limited and with Bluesound 2i, you must connect using RCAs if you want to leverage MQA in that box. The Burr Brown DAC’s are fine, but they are definitely inferior to a higher end DAC. I also use Roon, and recommend it highly for curating data. The metadata capture is second to none. 
Last thing i would mention, is that Amazon has a high Rez offer now that is far less expensive than other streaming services. The only challenge with my current setup is Roon doesn’t support Amazon. I think this is inevitable. If Tidal doesn’t find a way to scale MQA to many more tiles, I don’t see them surviving.

A couple of things.  Qobuz dropped the rate for their "Studio" subscription (which allows you to stream their hi-res files) to $14.99 / month.  Tidal is still $19.99 for the "Hi-Fi" subscription, which lets you stream MQA.  Some MQA files sound "different" to me also, but not necessarily better.

I need to get started cheaply and upgrade later. How is the basic Schitt Modi for a starter DAC? What is a cheaper but decent quality way to stream into it?

The modi 3 is their best value and is a good dac for $100. Used Node2i would be easy way to start streaming or a raspberry pi4  if you are comfortable  assembling  a small computer or you can get them ready to go for about $300.

I ordered Schitt Yggdrasil gs (sort of a hybrid of last version, new version of this dac) today. Next is to figure out the player/streamer. Interim will be iPhone. Seems that building the raspberry pi based digione signature is a great thing, I just have to make sure I understand how all the pieces connect - streaming system (assume qobuz), controller (Roon on iPhone), player/os/connectors, and dac all fit. The pi physical build is the easy part. It’s putting all this stuff together so software keeps working together that has me scratching my head. 15 day return will give me time to assess whether this is a good anchor for digital...

Hahaha.  Audiophile-land remains as nuts today as 15 yrs ago.  So I am starting to really dive into streamers and of course ran into the CD-transport vs server vs streamer debate, and in a couple of places, heated debate.  Quick decision: streamer.  It's the library that is so awesome.  I mean, right now I just heard the orig demo of Revolution and now McCartney doing a live Hey Jude. Never heard either of these before. Awesome.  

My CD collection is puny and player is puny. No need to try to remedy this, although for 30 minutes, I chased that idea a little.  I mean, a quality DAC (assuming it does sound good to me) does open options up.

@tvad... thanks. I had just looked at this from the thread debating streamer vs server vs transport.  That's a serious alternative.  How are you liking your Ygg?  

@tvad... ps: how's the UI?

Ok, last thing. This all was inspired by being home a bunch (we're usually really active, outside all day here near the beach) and then we moved the audio to our combo family/kitchen.  Where I plug iphone in as we make dinner and inevitably, we dance a little as we cook.  Sweet.  Fun to see my wife dancing as she drinks a beer,  

Congrats on the Yggi! 

I have a cheaper dac and still I don't think the sound is nearly as good with my phone as a streamer as it is with a computer. You might want to order an Allo or something else pretty quickly.

You had an earlier question about software and I just use Volumio on my RPi and controls that from any phone. We mostly streams Spotify on it by just choosing "Stream to device" and choose the RPi but I store flac files on it also. If you want to use Tidal or Qobuz you probably need a subscription from Volumio. They are around €29 per year or less than €3 per month if you pay for a year. You might also be able to use Roon but I have not tried that.

It arrives tomorrow. I am checking my watch oh about every 23 minutes. 
I will likely get a r pi-based player. Just going to do things one step at a time. If I wait a month or three then my sense of what I want to spend can open up a little. I am really enjoying streaming - with my free tidal 30 days even on just my phone into amp exploring all kinds of music till late in the night. It’s easy to lose sight of music for sound (I’ve done that!) Now I am much more focused on listening to music that moves me.

I’m one of the tinkerers. But if you go this route I believe you will get the best bang for buck. Though it requires a little work and knowledge.  I run a Raspberry Pi4b with a Pi2AES as the digital board. I load Moode or PiCorePlayer as software and select Tidal or my music on a hard drive via a app on my iPad - MconnectHD or a Squeezebox app, which goes to my Schit Yggy2 Dac via an AES connection. That was a very long sentence! Or buy a Lumin like others have suggested. Since you are an analogue guy you may want to stick with a R2R Dac like Schiit.
Even the cheaper $700 Bifrost is excellent. They don’t do MQA. Who cares. MQA is not better. I’ve compared MQA Tidal (24/48) to Qubuz 24/96 stuff. Can’t tell much difference at all. Sometimes MQA sounds worse because I think it’s remastered. Tidal sounded a little fuller to me over Qubuz. Qubuz maybe a teeny bit more detailed, but may be hearing that since it’s not as full sounding. Stuck with Tidal since I like their catalogue and genre + playlist selection better.

saw you picked up the Yggy. Wise man! I would check out pi2design.com and the PI2AES. Cheaper than Digione and it has AES output which I don’t believe the Digione has. AES sounds best on Schiit. Check out super best audio freinds .org (no spaces) under forums and digital.
Their is a diy write up how to use the Pi2Aes and tons of stuff on the Yggy. For now just get a Lightning to USB adapter and run USB into the Yggy from phone. It will sound excellent. Make sure you leave the Yggy on and run it a month to break it in. It took that long before mine sounded best. Didn’t like it initially. Have fun!

Hey @jeffjazz thx! Ok, i will check audio friends out.  I keep hearing some units take a month or so, others seem to be good out of the box.  To be honest, part of what sold me (besides the reported high performance/price) was their web site tone and reading Jason Stoddard's story on head-fi. Anyway, I am totally excited. Been 15 yrs+ since last piece of audio gear.  

Is it 'superbestaudiofriends?' Must be...

Oh, and pi2design, also... Again thx.

Yep, super best audio friends . Sorry

Yggdrasil arrived today. Alas, they failed to ship the usb to RCA cable I need, so 2 more days until streaming test. My old Yamaha CS player has no digital out, but my very cheap Samsung DVD player does, so... at least I can hear CD's thru the DAC.  

If the streaming sounds this good, I will be one happy camper.  I am not expecting my iphone to be this good, maybe my daughters 12 might be.