Mapman,tell Sis to hit Berlin,4 Opera companies,reasonable prices, no waiting. |
Rok2id, to call France ridiculous displays profound ignorance. |
Schubert, how about Sex, Drug and Opera?
Ever thought about it? Not onto any drugs, except would never mind a drag of good pot(possibly with cute date) followed by any descent Cabernet before the live classical performance.
Have to 100% agree that only in US the quality of grey substance in the head is measured by dollar. |
"Classical music is not a niche market in Europe. It is alive and well."
My sister just spent a week in Vienna and when I asked she told me she had no prayer of going to the opera there due to demand and ticket costs. |
"French students at the table has no idea what that meant."
which tells you all you need to know about that ridiculous country. |
I would not tie the importance, influence and above all the staying power of classical music to market share. The best of any art, engineering or any other endeavor is most often just enjoyed by the few. it would seem to me, looking from afar that the UK has a very robust classical music enviroment. The many orchestras and the Proms etc.... they seem to promote and nuture their young artist. |
Some places in Europe maybe.when I first lived in Berlin in the early 60's I would guess that Classical had perhaps 20% of the market,it still is the best place in the world
for the classical lover but if classical has 10% of the market I'd be surprised. Sex,drugs and rock and roll uber alles!
The best classical audiences in the world currently(excepting Japan) are in some of the former Soviet countries notably Hungary.Poland,Latvia and Estonia.
I was at a performance of Tosca at the Budapest Operahouse
3 yrs ago( SRO) where probaly over half of the crowd seemed to be under 30,which astonished me.
As any serious student of American History knows, the most powerful currents that run throughout it are racism and anti-intellectualism.which gives us the disdain for "egghead" pursuits that is largely missing in Europe wherever ones taste resides.
I once heard an American in France make the quintessical
american unaswerable putdown "if you are so smart why aren't you rich"(in perfect French),the half dozen French students at the table has no idea what that meant.
To them it was a totally meaningless concept. |
"The are just over 300 million people in this country and (last I looked) +/- 30 classical radio stations (not one of which is economically self-sufficient). As a statistical matter, virtually no one cares about Mozart."
Interesting, when I think of classical music I don't even think of this country. Europe is the birth place and center. Read!! Classical music is not a niche market in Europe. It is alive and well. |
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Well ,this is a forum where sweeping generalizations are about as much energy an old man like me can expand.
Wealthly people are on Symphony boards etc, but the slim
support for classical music in the US is centered in middle income groups like teachers etc.
Wealthly money is spent in self-promotion.
If anyone cares to make an arguement that the West is now,always has been and always will be bacically a POS they wouldn't
provoke one from me.
One the premise that even a broken clock is right twice a day however,I have no doubt that Euro-centerd Classical Music is the worlds greatest art form which ipso-facto makes it very much an aquired taste. |
Schubert....so ticket sales are your measuring stick? And THAT's what establishes Mozart as the pinnacle of human artistic expression. Now I got it!
I also note your deep familiarity with the alternative classical traditions. It is this full appreciation of context that animates your judgement as to the superiority of Mozart, Schubert, et. al.
Upon reflection, I now see that there is no cultural bias in your posts.
Marty
BTW, you been following the economics of classical music lately? The are just over 300 million people in this country and (last I looked) +/- 30 classical radio stations (not one of which is economically self-sufficient). As a statistical matter, virtually no one cares about Mozart. Institutions and a very small number of wealthy, self-perceived cultural elites subsidize (and have always subsidized) Mozart. And THAT money is all about maintaining the perception of superiority of the culture it represents.
To be clear, I am not denigrating the music you love. I'm merely highlighting the sweeping generalizations you've made in an effort to establish its "superiority" to other forms of music (and, when you're on a roll, all other artistic expression). |
Another example of over rated western music.
Handel
Messiah
Boston Baroque
Martin Pearlaman
Telarc
a different sort of Messiah. Smaller group. Great stuff. |
Schubert:
Be nice. After all, this is an age in which all things have to be treated and valued equally. Otherwise big brother will fall on you. And he is heavy. |
Indian Classical Music?
It is quite nice,probaly why it sells out venues ALL over Asia whilst poor Mozart scarcely draws at all. |
All fame is fleeting, and it gets more fleeting as time passes. |
She loves you yea yea yea? I wanna hold your hand? Lady Gaga writes more intellectual lyrics then Beatles in their infancy. The Beatles became brilliant but at the start, not even close. |
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Chadnliz... How can you honestly say that the likes of Alice's Restaurant by Arlo Guthrie shouldn't be categorized as “brilliant”. |
The Fab 4 started as no better then a teen pop act so its all relative, there was nothing close to brilliant in the early days. |
I just hope that hip-hop/rap/modern R&B era will subside and guitar reefs, sax pyrotechnics, piano solos will increase their magnitude. Last 20 years it's been gradually getting thinner and thinner. Still didn't loose my hope for musical reincarnation. There are still guitars, pianos, violins, brass instruments for sale at the music stores. Hopefully they will be there. |
Back to the original "12 Facts". They are facts, no big whoop, things have changed; that was then, this is now.
Who expects the Beatles to be the biggest thing for all time?
Disappointing, encouraging, neutral (where I fit in, I guess) depends on ones perspective.
Thanks "buzzfeed" for stimulating some interesting discussion! Better "buzzfeed" than "buzzkill" I always say. 8^)
PS: I've never actually said that but I thought it was catchy. |
Schubert writes:
It does nor demean any other form,time, society ,nation,race or culture to state the obivious and that is the music of Bach,Mozart,Beethoven,Schubert et al is the greatest artistic acheivment of the human race.
That statement demeans EVERY other form, time, society, nation, race and culture.
Asserting that the superiority of this music is OBVIOUS doesn't change the basis of your assessment. Putting pop music aside, this statement demeans the serious (i.e. classical) music tradition of other cultures (again, Indian music comes quickly to mind) and other times (today, for instance). You assert the superiority of a widely (tho not universally) accepted high water mark of a specific culture over the best of all other cultures.
Either you have really unusual breadth of knowledge of the music of the world or your statement is presumtuous. |
The nazis liked Wagner because he wrote antisemitic articles and harbored antisemitic sentiments. Plus his music glorified Germanic myths and history. I'm certainly not claiming that the nazis had any particular liking for classical music, only if it served their needs and their image of themselves.
In fact many "decadent" composers and other artists were maligned and persecuted, Jewish or not. Past composers with Jewish roots, such as Mendelsohnn, were looked down upon even though he was a Christian.
Sadly, Jewish composers who were not able to escape met worse fates. |
'Contemporary music based on historically African musical forms (I'm specifically thinking of the blues - but jazz, rock, and some contemporary Western classical music also qualifies), often reflects a different ideal:'
All of the of music you listed is 'western' music. I assume you meant African-American, if so, it's all western culture. Let's keep the true meaning of 'culture' in mind. It's one of the most misused words. There is only one culture in the USA.
I did not mean to imply that classical music makes western people better than others, no more than BMW and MB make germans better. It's just the facts. Classical music is complex, requires large groups playing different parts, has withstood the test of time and it is Written down. This seperated it from most of the world's music back in that time. Nowadays, after the masters have spoken, there is not a lot left to say. And this is true for Jazz and pop also. happy listening. |
Rok2id,
My point was that "Western Classical Music" (as narrowly used by some who have posted here, please refer to the names/period Schubert mentions in the post directly above this one for an example), represents an expression of Western (as opposed to universal) values. It is structurally complex and emotionally/intellectually ambitious. Contemporary music based on historically African musical forms (I'm specifically thinking of the blues - but jazz, rock, and some contemporary Western classical music also qualifies), often reflects a different ideal:
Communicate a single idea/emotion simply, directly and with great urgency (thanks John Atkinson, Stereophile for that line).
To suggest that the former is worthwhile and the latter worthless - see my copied quote from Schubert - strikes me as culturebound and insensitive. More obviously, other culture's complex musical forms (i.e. Indian classical music) get summarily dismissed in those sweeping claims of the superiority of Western Classical Music.
This view is both narrow and - as I noted - somewhat insensitive.
Marty
PS This was PRECISELY the point of the Nazi embrace of classical music. It was an attempt to establish the superiority of a single culture (Aryan) and its values. I'm not suggesting that any posts here are racist or facist, but I am pointing out that some border on - IMO - the insensitive.
No "politically correct" responses please. I am talking about the substance of the underlying assumptions, not the semantics. |
It does nor demean any other form,time, society ,nation,race or culture to state the obivious and that is the music of Bach,Mozart,Beethoven,Schubert et al is the greatest artistic acheivment of the human race.
Nor does that imply,in any way,shape or form, that the culture in which they lived and laboured is superior to any other.
If the ONLY music that existed was that of Bach alone, music would remain Gods greatest gift to man. |
Rja: 'The nazis really liked Wagner'
Hitler liked Wagner. Where did the idea come from that the nazis had some great appreciation of classical music? They were bigoted murdering thugs. Thats all.
Martykl: 'Posters might want to remain a bit sensitive to the merits of historically African (or other non-Western culture) based art forms'
Such As? |
Hey folks, should US citizens listen or boycott arab music in the face of fighting terrorizm??
We stomped to the Middle East a number of times for a reason of building our own wealth (and probably will continue to stomp coz enough is never enough!) or another words conquerring their resources...
Does that mean that they will void listening to Gershwin, Ellington, Miller and other great composers?
Imre Kalman was hungerian jewish composer very widely listened and recognized by german nazis!
Composers and performing artists are just as human as we are and they do not dictate politics, although they could be forced to write/perform some 'patriotic' music (or acts) by dictatorship government...
Art should be independed of nationality or religion anyways and should only be dictated by public...
So let's welcome our new 'maestros' JayZ, Rihana, Lady Gaga that represent our nation's culture of 21st century! |
Schubert writes,
I suspect(strongely) there were be NO current acts even known a hundred much less three hundred years from now.
Popular music is utter garbage plain and simple.
A related question (or two):
How much contemporary classical music will be remembered a hundred years from now?
and
Where does classical (oh, say) Indian music sit on the universal scale of musical value?
Marty
PS It need not be a given that all great art comes from the academy. The guitar has the ability to emulate that most essential of human communications - speech. However, that emulation involves bending strings - a technique central to the blues and (virtually) absent from classical Western guitar music. My own guess is that the blues-based, guitar music of the 20th century will survive and remain of interest to a small group of people, much like (tho likely smaller than) those small groups that follow the various strains of classical music today.
Just a guess, obviously.
This is not to suggest that blues-based guitar music is "superior" to Western Classical music. The structural complexity and ambition of Western classical music separates it from pop and folk forms. However, that is not the only measure of artistic value. A simple idea, communicated in a straightforward and effectively way has artistic value. Enough to last for centuries? Only time will tell.
Posters might want to remain a bit sensitive to the merits of historically African (or other non-Western culture) based art forms. You can pick your own scoring system, but you should always understand that it is your own scoring system, reflecting your own cultural biases - not a universal "truth". |
it may be less the population changing than additional segments of the population getting involved with a twist of technology. I doubt many 12 year old girls had money to buy tickets to a LVB concert back inthe day. Now they have hundreds of millions to spend. Nothing else other than alien probing could explain Justin Bieber. Toss in the computer, internet and a dash of tone sculpting vocal software and you can make music in your garage and distribute worldwide. Well either than or Marakanetz is right in the 6th post and the world is actually just getting dumber. |
Learsfool,
thanks, I thought so
HUGE difference in sales potential...
Phil |
Yes, but I think there is value in pointing out that visions of grandeur be it in music or any other facets of life can be a double edged sword. |
We are driving off the rails now, from Glee to Nazi? Really? |
The nazis really liked Wagner. I believe none of his music was played in Israel until very recently, like in the last year or two.
Can't say I blame them. |
Philojet, if you are still reading this, the answer to your question is yes, those sales numbers certainly include MP3 downloads. |
Come on folks Classical music is outstanding but 4 guys in a studio with some cut and paste can create beauty equal to 40 players in a pit. Many dont even need fancy studio tweaks. Jazz, Blues, electronic aswell and there is no need to turn this into some musical penis measuring contest. |
I have great appreciation for classical music but claims of its innate superiority do bring up in my mind some nasty historical facts associated that would seem to contradict any claims of associated purity of spirit. |
Of course not,it is a powerful factor leading towards the light,one can always choose darkness or as was the case in Germany be channeled into it.
Not the place to go into it but Facism in Germany could have been prevented by others,including the United States.
We are all guilty,both of comission and omission.
BTW Haydn,Mozart,Schubert and Mahler were Austrian,not that it matters really. |
The great Composers you listed were long dead by the time of the Nazi's. I don't see the connection? And I know this is a audio/music thread, But just a quick point:
EVERY country in europe (save Britain) contributed fighting units to fight with and for, the Nazi regime. Including troops from the Soviet Union. The germans had plenty of help. Many, Many Europeans saw the Germans as fighting for Christian Europe, against Communist Russia, and sent troops to fight on the eastern front.. |
It clears the mind and washes the spirit in beauty,enobling the human spirit to embrace truth, compassion and love,in the religious meaning of that,in a
manner and to a degree nothing else can. Great description of the power of art, but I'm not sure it's true, at least universally so. Germany is the central nation regarding classical music. Germany produced Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Wagner and Mahler, yet Germany also produced Nazism and the final solution. Classical music was championed by the government as an example of German greatness during the Nazi regime. Being awash in the beauty of the human spirit doesn't stop some people from starting genocidal war. |
on a more positive note, A Great one you may have missed on CD:
Telemann & The Baroque Gypsies
Ensemble Caprice
Matthias Maute
Analekta Label AN 2 9919 |
So, the music scene in most of our opinions has gone cheesy. Although I have to agree I don't know what to say about it.
It is what it is and nothing can change it. It's simply evolution. I have no choice but to accept it.
But we don't have to like it! |
Rja:
Thanks for the correction. 1756 - 1791 |
Mozart died at 35 or 36 not in his twenties, not that it really matters. |
The fact for real is not at all in all the beauty of classical music, but in the appreciation factor.
Nowdays only small group of educated people would enjoy listening to music vs. pop fake whilist past times not to long ago it had substantially larger magnitude.
Becides classical there was jazz, sophisticated rock bands, neo-classical performers and composers, brittish envasion, progressive rock, 60's,70's,80's, some 90's and than sudden lapse... Northern Europe is still having substantially larger group of music appreciation than the rest of the world.
Will we ever have another rock band that would book venues larger than bar stage or even the bar stage will be too large for the skillfull rock band? That would be realy sad. |
thanks for confirming what i already thought. the music business is going to hell in a hand basket.
modern pop sucks. |
Why is it better? It clears the mind and washes the spirit in beauty,enobling the human spirit to embrace truth, compassion and love,in the religious meaning of that,in a
manner and to a degree nothing else can.
Gods greatest gift to man,music is the thing itself,not just representational as are the other arts.
As to "what floats your boat" ,that nautical journey can often be a one-way passage to the netherworld.
The good really is the enemy of the best,we all need the very best whether thats what we desire or not. |
Yes Really. Culturally speaking, of course. |
'What is it again that makes classical music so much better than all the rest?'
The fact that the most advanced civilization / culture on the planet produced it. And that culture has spread around the world. Most of the world, is now in effect, European. Including the USA and Miss Kesha. :) |
"Silly,classical music is the highest acheivement of the wetern world"
Orchestrating music sure beats out orchestrating wars in terms of high achievement.
What is it again that makes classical music so much better than all the rest?
Harder to create orchestrate and perform I think clearly, but I'm asking more from the listener's perspective than the artists I guess.
Its impressive to think about and hard to actually do, but what if a good dance tune from Kesha were to float my boat more? Does that make me shallow or inferior in some way?
I know classical music affectionado's and academics including myself I suppose even feel that way but objectively I have a hard time explaining why? |
