UPS or should I Say Oooops

I had quite an experience in sending back a damaged amp which was sent to me via UPS back to the distributor via UPS. I went to the customer counter and even tho I added a 2nd box to the amp they would not take the amp w/o the orig box.

My question, has anyone here had a UPS damage claim paid when the item wasnt shipped in the orig manufact box?
Yes, they will pay out if the unit is not in the original box. The damage has to be quite obvious though and packing would have had to have been MORE than up to their standards in the first place though. In other words, been there / done that..... Sean
I have shipped via UPS with no box. UPS offers a packaging service. They wrap the piece in plastic, put it in a box, and blow in that expanding foam to lock the item in place. It is not expensive, I think no more than $15. It seems to me they would have a hard time denying your claim if they did the packing. Of course, you have access to a full service UPS center.
I meant, "of course, you have to have access". Hey Audiogon, How about a message editor?????
UPS pays all the time with or without 'manufacture' box. I purchase items on ebay on a regular basis. About 25% arrive damaged. This in spite of the fact I have shipper's put a "Electronic Equipment, Useless if Dropped" label on the box and I require the shipper to meed UPS standands. Generally, UPS takes anything, no questions asked. I have Fedex ground to be no better. UPS does pay the shipper the claim and I lose only my time. I'll check into the UPS packing service.
I am involved in a damage dispute with UPS right now. I sent a CD player in original packing plus double boxed and I added air cushion packing around the unit. I arrived with an internal part unattached and a chip out of the corner. UPS totally ignored me, I had to call them about 25 times over the course of 6 weeks before they would even acknowledge that they had my CD player. Finally after all that they inspected the package and called me a told me that it was not properly packed and that they were denying my claim. I had the package insured for retail value. I am going to file a lawasuit against them in small claims and see where this gets me. UPS are the worst company I have ever dealt with in regards to customer service. Has anyone else had to take UPS to court? What was the outcome?
In my business, I receive hundreds of UPS packages monthly. I have found that damage is almost always due to improper packaging. We see everthing from pocelean toilets to highly sensitive computer equipment. I have less than 1 claim per month. Most damage is caused when an item (EVEN IF WELL WRAPPED) is loose inside the box. The cardboard box is much stronger when it receives equal support from the inside. A box that is 25% bigger than the item with all excess space taken up with energy absorbing packing material will provide better protection than two ill fitting larger boxes. If the box is unsupported it will crush and tear easier when dropped or stacked on. UPS is not resposible for improper packaging ... the shipper is. Additionally, as the shipper, you must prepare the package to survive reasonable handling. "HANDLE WITH CARE" or "FRAGILE" stickers DO NOT make a difference if the item is poorly packaged!!! If in doubt pay a service to package the item for you.

PS - our sister division pays UPS shipping bills weekly at a rate of $20,000 per week (that's a s---load of boxes) and has a similarly low rate of claims. The business is 100%consumer electronics.
The reason for this thread is that at the UPS counter near my home there is a big banner reading "Electronic, Computers, etc...must be shipped in Original Manfacturer Box" ..the counter person actually cut open my box when I told her what was in the box. She denied the parcel, the supervisor reopened the box and said the same, and informed me if this was shipped, had she allowed it, which she would not, any damage claims would be denied since no orig box.

Seems to me we have some inconsistancies in UPS policy which could lead to a false sense of security sending Insured and a potenitial waste of $$ purchasing insurance which ultimatley can be denied based on non original packaging.
At least from the Oakland CA UPS outlet.
As an Economist and a lawyer, I am a "dollar voter"...when I make my vote if feel it is for VERY good reasons:

I do my best to avoid Mircosoft.

I DO NOT buy or use anyting with a NIKE Swoosh on it.

I DO NOT drink Strabuck's Coffee.

AND most important: I DO NOT use UPS (nor will I purchase something TO BE shipped via UPS)

It makes absolutly no difference to any of the above companies that I do not patronize them...but it means someting to me....thats my story and I am sticking to it..
I uwse Mail Boxes, ETC to pack my gear sent by UPS. Costs slightly more, but nary a problem in many items shipped. UPS is about to purchase Mail Boxes Etc. so tough time denying claim packed by "them"
I can shed some light on this subject. UPS denies ALL claims whether they are insured, not insured, original box or not. They ALWAYS say it is as a result of poor packing, that is their only defense. And most important, they ALWAYS settle the claim when they are sued in small claims court. File the proper paperwork with UPS (claims form) send them everything they ask for. Expect to be ignored, put on hold, hung up on and to have few or none of your calls returned. Go straight to small claims court, no need to wait. If by a miracle, they contact you before the court date, get your check and just don't show up for court. If they don't respond or don't send you the check before the date, go to court. The legal department moves MUCH quicker than the claims department. Only 5% of people file claims and they are the ones who get their checks quickly. All of this information is based on a legitimately packed box and legitimate claim. If they think you insured something for a much higher value and packed it poorly to get the loot, your bluff will probably be called and you will have to go to court. In the event of a legitimate claim with plenty of photos, receipts, names of the people you spoke with etc.. they will settle right quick in a hurry.
I have to support Ericbee on this issue. UPS ignored my claim until I informed them that I was including all of the customer service reps and department manager by name in my lawsuit against UPS. I assured them that this wasn't personal, simply the only way that I could resolve the issue which had gone on for nearly 2 months. The day before the date I had given as my filing date, the check arrived. As might be summized, FedEx now has my business.
ericbee, ewe are mistaken - ups *will* make payment for damaged goods - even if they were poorly packed, or were damaged prior to shipment. i was the buyer in two such incidents, & ups paid both times, w/no hassles - once to a dishonest seller, the other time to an incompetent seller. w/the dishonest seller, i even told the ups claims person, when they came over to inspect the goods, that i thought it was damaged prior to packing. go figure...

ymmv, doug s.


while I agree that MBE is a method to pack and ship, in fact the UPS supervisor suggested I use them, I refuse to be extorted by their pricing. An example, I had to ship a 35lb DAC. I went to MBE to help pack it, they charged me $10. They offered to ship it via UPS or USPS. The buyer wanted overnight delivery. MBE rates were $189, UPS $160. I walked over to USPS one block away and it cost me $72. I had an idea what the USPS cost would be when I brought it to them direct, and asked the MBE owner what it would cost me if I dropped off the package to USPS myself and he replied, "im not sure, I only have access to the rates UPS and USPS offers me". Something tells me, he knew exactly what it would cost me if I did it myself.

I am pleasantly surprised at the number of people who have had luck with claims w/o orig pacakging. My dilema at the time was that UPS wouldnt let me ship the package w/o the orig packaging.

FYI, the loophole is to set up a "one time pick up" by driver who will not and does not have the time to inspect the contents or the method which a package is boxed and skip the cusotmer counter.
I had one claim against UPS paid very promptly. However, it was for an item I that they lost (or was stolen while in their possession).
KRELL says, "never ship UPS."
From the minute the inspector started looking at the speakers that UPS damaged in transit, it was clear that the she had no intention of filing a report that said anything but "packaging insufficient." When I showed her the crushed styrofoam padding inside, she said, "No. That impact was from the INSIDE"--as if the speaker spontaneously accelerated from within. UPS promptly denied the claim and has ignored further inquiries.

I don't doubt that in some cases in some locales, UPS pays promptly. But with a company that size, it's inevitable that there are variations from place to place. The actual route taken by the packages probably also affects the damage rate, since apparently there are UPS shipping centers where conveyor belts drop packages from unreasonable heights.

In other words, as an individual, you are at the mercy of UPS unless you threaten legal action. You may be lucky and receive a quick and fair settlement to your claim. You may be unlucky. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the odds are not in your favor.
I will guarantee that EVERY claim starts off in their computer as "denied". I have witnessed first hand how the procedure is done AS THE CLAIMS ADJUSTOR ENTERED IT INTO THEIR SYSTEM. One of the clerks at the shipping counter was even freaked out as it came up INSTANTLY as "Claim Denied". It is up to the inspector / claims adjustor to manually override, which this one did on this specific claim.

If you have something that was packed within reason and you paid for insurance, you may have to file a suit against UPS to get them to pay you for damage incurred during transit. As such, UPS agreed that the parcel met its' shipping standards when they accepted it. They also made a contractual agreement to insure the parcel against damage when they accepted payment for said insurance. Once the package is in their care, they are liable for its' safe delivery to the consignee. If it does not arrive in good / original condition and there are signs of physical damage or rough handling to the contents or the package itself, it is up to you to "remind" them of their liability. They WILL blow you off until you PUSH the issue.

As such, this will all boil down to EVERY package having to be inspected on an individual basis and a GIANT rate increase due to the increased amount of time and labor involved. Unless you are a frequent shipper and the counter people know you, the local terminal has everyone open their boxes for inspection before acceptance. This minimizes claims like Sedond mentioned ( shipping damaged goods and then blaming it on transit damage ) along with them accepting poorly packed items that WOULD have been damaged.

For future reference, i would NEVER, EVER, EVER ship anything more than about 70 lbs via UPS, regardless of their weight limitations. Anything over about 50 lbs is actually "pushing it" in my opinion. I have been told first-hand that the dock workers purposely damage items that are heavy or "bulky" / hard to work with. They don't want to handle real heavy packages and damage them on purpose to "teach you a lesson" and keep you from sending "heavy" stuff in the future. As such, most any speakers should be shipped via motor freight and packed in either a crate or some type of framing. Sean
UPS IS THE ABSOLUTE WORST IN THE INDUSTRY!!!!! I have had too many problems with them and I have vowed to never use them again. Shipper and receiver beware!!!!!
Sean is right, ship heavy items with someone other than UPS, ALWAYS. UPS union workers are the ultimate poster kids for what's wrong with unions. You are correct Sean--they INTENTIONALLY damage items at the dock, I've seen this first-hand. Big heavy item coming down the conveyor belt. Two workers there to grab it and move it to the next station. Whoops! They'll "miss it", watch it hit the concrete dock floor (after its 6 foot drop) and then laugh. What a*holes. I have bought and (mostly sold) over 100 items in this site, and many many more on eBay and elsewhere. I've never had a single shipping problem. Why? 1. Expensive stuff goes FedEX, period. Even if I have to pay some of the ship cost. 2. Heavy and large items (like speakers) go BAX Global. Period. 3. I overpack everything. 4. I use USPS for inexpensive items (less than $500). 5. I never use UPS. YMMV...
Evansdad, what you have said is a lie. Anyone seen dropping packages and laughing would be fired. UPS is like a military operation. If you are 1 minute late you are written up. The only reason you have had luck with Fed-ex is because in the past fed ex shipments were air shipments.You are not comparing apples to apples. Why don't you compare UPS airservice with Fed-ex airservice. I suppose it never occurred to you that you were having less damages with Fed-ex because you were paying a lot more for air shipment. Had you payed for air service with UPS, you would have gotten the same level of service. I think you will find that Fed-ex ground which is really RPS is just as bad, I think worse, with damages. Mail Boxes Etc. is owned by UPS, which is why they are so kindly recommending that folks use them.
I have had to wage a long and protracted battle to get a claim paid for speakers shipped in original boxes. They are in the business of selling insurance and will try to wear you out if you file a claim. There are a lot of horror stories about UPS at other threads here you may want to check out. Also remember it is a lot easier for UPS to f*** over an individual than a big business client who spends a lot of $$ with them.
ups is no better or worse than any other shipper. when stuff is properly packed, i've never had a problem. as i mentioned above, they *did* pay a claim, no questions asked, when the shipper *obviously* fraudulently packed damaged goods. in another case, they paid when the shipper improperly packed the goods. *both* were obvious to me; they still paid. *i* wouldn't have.

i'm sure there are yerks that work at ups, but don't fool yourself - they don't have a monopoly on 'em. yerks work for other shippers too. most damage i've seen is due to yerks' poor packaging

doug s.

I have never had a problem with UPS. No Damage, no misdeliveries. My UPS guy opens my downstairs gate and carries packages upstairs in front of my door to leave them out of sight if they look like computer or stereo equipment. All of the stuff my wife orders, clothing, small appliances, fertilizer, he leaves downstairs for all the world to see.
Bulldogger, i have NO idea of where your getting your information from about the handling of packages. Even if you did or do work there. While NOBODY in their right mind would purposely damage goods or "play games" in front of a supervisor, it happens there ALL the time. I have friends that work at several different UPS terminals and they tell me "stories" all the time. They have also told me that if i value something and ship it via UPS, i should send it via Air if i want it to arrive safely. Then again, who can afford air shipments for things like good sized amps, etc ??? It could literally add a couple of hundred dollars onto the price of the amp if going cross country and it is heavy. That negates the "bargain" aspect of anything that you've managed to find on the net for a good price.

As to RPS ground service, i have found them to be superior to UPS ground service in terms of "parcel abuse". At least the boxes don't look like they were drop-kicked when delivered. I have NO idea as to how they handle claims though, as i have never had to file a claim with them.

For the record, i do run a business and get packages in on a daily basis. Any courier is capable of destroying a package. If you pack things going out like you would want to have them coming in, you'll probably be okay. It's cheaper to pay for some extra weight and packing materials than to have to give up the time, hassle and headaches of dealing with a claim. Sean
In reply to Evansdad's post of 04/03/01...the reference to "what's wrong with unions", I would submit, is misinformed. There exist a significant number of American citizens, affiliated with unions, who are industrious and exhibit a work ethic which others should perhaps emulate. -Sam
I have yet to meet/see a union member who is both industrious and efficient in their work habits. Unions generally result in a decrease in productivity in a work place. It encourages complacency and discourages the worker to display any initiative in the work place.
I respectfully disagree. I am not prepared to utilize this forum as a vehicle for a marginal debate regarding the value of labor. Sincerely, Sam.
c1ferrari, ya never know - mebbe nounion really never *has* met/seen an industrious, efficient union member. some people are like that. ;~)

but, ya know, *i* tink some union guys work hard, some are lazy - yust like everybody else! :>) i know i've seen both kinds, in both places. hey, mebbe someone should do double-blind abx testing to see which group is more industrious! ;~)

regards, doug s.

Ah...verity with levity. Thank you, Doug. -Sam