TW-Acustic Raven 10.5 or DaVinci Grandezza??


Seems like a crazy question!
I am getting a Raven one but will have a choice of the Raven 10.5 or DaVinci Grandezza for just $2000 more! Which should I go for? Well I am not sure if Raven one is a good match to this super arm but the 10.5 have got great reviews. Please give soem advice.
luna
If you have the choice and if you are looking for value ( especially in the "unlikely event" that you may eventually want to sell the tonearm one day ..) AND performance I would recommend going for the DaVinci Grandezza (10" or 12" if possible).
The DaVinci will be a future classic - for design and performance and is THE single component which has put DaVinci on the map.
Dear Luna: Independent that makes sense to match Raven TT ( I assume you own Raven TT and even if you did not. ) ) with Raven tonearm because Raven designers took in count this match " necessity " a tonearm main target is to give the right answers on what any cartridge could ask for.

Cartridge designs are not perfect and needs carefully set up parameters, between these parameters is the azymuth critical one that with the Raven you can change it as the cartridge needs but you can't do this in the Grandezza.

Now, if you don't care to much on what the cartridge set-up needs then you can choose any of two but if you care that your cartridge on this critical parameter set-up be on target then the 10.5 is IMHO the " road " to go.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Here stated that no-azymuth in the DaVinci:
http://www.da-vinci-audio.com/dvapdf/products/phono/brochure/Grand%20Reference%20tone%20arm%20Grandezza.pdf
The tonearm designed to matched the turntable ....?
Serious ?
If a cartridge has a misplaced stylus - i.e. the need for azimuth alignment to compensate that - give it back to the dealer for full refund or exchange.
Every US$80 DJ-cartridge is dead on 90° perfect azimuth.

You shouldn't ask for less from any cartridge costing any multiple.
There is good reason why some very respective tonearms out there - and some since 30 years .. SME V - do not feature an azimuth alignment option.
Why compensate something you should never accept in the first ?
Dear D:Please stop to say " stupid " things about. Btw, SME is not a " perfect " tonearm in the same way that there are no perfect cartridges and of course no perfect LPs and even no perfect cartridge set up by any one.

In the other side a TT designer that want to design a tonearm for at least take in count an arm board that match the tonearm build material resonances to avoid adding more. This designer knew perfectly the tonearm behavior about so he can help in better way with his tonearm design that with a different tonearms where he almost know nothing. Till today there is no perfect solution to " one for all ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear Luna: If I remember time ago you have experienced the help of azymuth setting/changes, so you already know its importance level to use it when is need it.

Your call.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
...TT designer that want to design a tonearm for at least take in count an arm board that match the tonearm build material resonances to avoid adding more. This designer knew perfectly the tonearm behavior about so he can help in better way with his tonearm design that with a different tonearms where he almost know nothing

Not true. Some (not all) always think, when a "Designer" does something, it is automatically prefect, well done and a lot of brain is inside. I think, this is a master mistake in audio today. Every new "Design" gets its merits, some don't hesitate, to name it a "great" design when a piece of wood for 10K is offered, but each his own...
Till today there is no perfect solution to " one for all "
Not true. But again, each his own, when someone has no technical knowledge or fixes his view on the wrong technical issues, well, then nothing will be ever done right.
Sometimes electronics can show the differences, sometimes not, sometimes the listener can understand what he hears, sometimes not...it is not a religion, but of course are some design existing, which have some better solutions.
Raul,
Have you even heard the Raven 10.5 tonearm?
If not?........how is it possible for you recommend this arm?
Are you just trusting that it is better than the DaVinci?
Dear Halcro, Raul had to favor the Raven by all means.
Why ?
Simply because I favored the DaVinci ....
It always works this way.
I for one would NEVER accept a cartridge which needs azimuth adjustment.
Cheers,
D.
Dear D,
I agree with you entirely.
I have rarely had a problem with the azimuth of cartridges when used on arms without azimuth adjustment.
However on the two arms where I DO have azimuth adjustment........the Copperhead and the Micro Seiki MA-505......I have to battle with it.
Particularly on the MA-505.
The DaVinci is virtually assured to be spot-on with azimuth....unless your cartridge is a 'dog'....as Dertonarm says :^)
I have a friend who owns both the TW tonearm and the DaVinci on a TW table

He likes the TW arm a lot, however the DaVinci in his words is in a higher level. At the higher price level, one would hope that is the case.
I don't want to enter the debate here about the merits of either tonearm mentioned by the original poster, but I am surprised to read that there is a consensus shared in this thread that azimuth adjustment is apparently a completely perfunctory and unnecessary feature of tonearms. So am I to understand from this that adjusting cartridge azimuth is never needed because all manufacturers ensure cartridge azimuth is perfect at the factory?

I guess all these third-party devices like the Fozgometer and the new Soundsmith Cartright product are redundant and not needed. I, for one, am relieved to learn this!
Dear Kipdent, on the price level we are usually talking about in high-end audio NO customer should accept a cartridge with anything less than a perfect 90° orientated stylus.
On this premise azimuth adjustment in the tonearm is indeed obsolete.
If a customer requests azimuth adjustment to compensate lousy quality control by the manufacturer of a given cartridge, that is another story.

One should however take azimuth adjustment VERY cautious, as ever so often it is NOT a misplaced stylus which is compensated, but differences in output between the two channels.
This is ground full of trap-holes here.
As for Fozgometer and similar products - they do find their buyers and many feel comfortable with them.
Fine.

I for one expect - as a conditio sine qua non in priori - that a cartridge I buy features a dead on 90° stylus.
Would you accept track and rake errors in your new car's axle beam ??
Can't imagine that.
Likewise I see no point to accept a manufacturer misplaced stylus in the first.
I agree with Dertonearm,I always carefully examine the cartridge before walking out of the store, there exists expensive mutt's that quality control missed.

Luna, I would be thinking top dollar resale value on the whole package at this stage , the DaVinci would be my top choice.
I see two Raven arm for sale and not selling, lots of looks but no sale, used Raven tables same thing it seems.

For sure spending extra money on audio items does not always translate into better performance no matter what you do.
In_shore,

you said;

"I see two Raven arm for sale and not selling, lots of looks but no sale, used Raven tables same thing it seems."

I just viewed the adds and did not see these arms you speak of and one out of only the two tables shows sold.

Seems contradict your statement made!
Well, Audiogon isn't the only web-platform for used audio components .....
is da vinci serious ? when they say:

Adjustable on this tone arm is:
a magnetical dumping & the VT-Adjustment
This tone arm hasn’t antiscating adjustment
This tone arm hasn’t azimuth adjustment

Most owners ask us about adjustment. To all we say: add the cartridge and listen the music, then immediately you understand, why we omit div. adjustment tools.
This tone arm is built to bring all the musicality of your LP’s!

you would think with spending $10K on a tonearm, they could get the english right. I find it laughable there is no azimuth or anti-skate adjustment. Da Vinci over-priced ? Perhaps not in the world of boutique tables and arms...they certainly are to me. I can think of quite a few tonearms that offer complete adjustability and even on the fly in some cases for azimuth. Da Vinci is off my list...lol
Every cart can benefit from azimuth adjustment...perhaps not all if your lucky. Shame on Da Vinci for not offering this critical adjustment option
OP: Go with a Raven, Tri-planar or a Graham.
Dear Dertonarm: No, it is not because you choosed de Davinci. In the past I posted that the azymuth and anti-skate tonearm control are two tonearm characteristics that every tonearm has to have and that the Grandezza does not has by design.
So, it is not for you.

In the other side, how can you be sure that the cartridge stylus is dead on 90° and not 89.9°-90.1° by sight? ( I " admire " In_shore because he can!!! ): you need to mount it an during playback set-up decide about and if you think that the stylus is off how can you assure to the seller that's off for he can change it with out any charge ( shipping included. )?. Some times different VTA/SRA positions needs different azymuth position too, for many reasons.

I " admire " your " chameleon " attitude about when you accept off-center LPs, non-flat LPs, high output impedance amps, non-perfect TT and everything in audio items that are not perfect. Why do you accept everything else but that no-sense perfect stylus azymuth? and what about the anti-skate device: now you think that the AS is " obsolete " and the cartridge does not need it during playback? so is there nothing to compensate about those playback forces?

IMHO we are living in a non-perfect audio world where we need some " tools " that help with those non-perfect audio items: well antiskate and azymuth tonearm controlers are part of those " tools ".

Halcro said that he has no problem with a cartridge in the Grandezza but with the same cartridge in the Continnum he has azymuth problem, this make no sense to me either because a tonearm azymuth control is used only when it need it and when not the tonearm is dead on.

Well, to dream in a perfect audio world is only a dream and maybe at its best a big hope. Returning to our real non-perfect audio world IMHO we need all those " tools ", that's why exist third party devices as tonearm/cartridge protractors and several ones.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Let me follow the logic of the argument that azimuth adjustment is unnecessary in high-priced cartridges. So anyone who actually uses a Fozgometer or other measurement device and finds it necessary to adjust azimuth in order to optimize readings either has a bad cartridge (i.e., skewed stylus or mismatched output) or a turntable that's out of level? Sorry, but that's not my experience. I have several high-end cartridges, including an A90 that the designer himself examined and declared to be a "perfect example," and all have benefited from azimuth adjustments on a Phantom II (with a perfectly level platter), both in Fozgometer readings and sonics. I always begin installation of a cartridge at the visibly horizontal using a couple of different gridded acrylic blocks (including the one included in the UNI-Pro) yet find I need to adjust a tiny bit from there. I must be one unlucky dude to get so many dog cartridges.

On the other had, I also have a current high-end SPU that sounds much better adjusted to be visibly horizontal than when I optimize its azimuth with the Foz, so I'm by no means saying that device is infallible. But I am glad I'm able to adjust azimuth, nonetheless.

^^^ My experiences mirror yours Wrm57. I have two A90's and a Shelter Harmony. Both the Shelter and the A90 I am currently using required a bit of azimuth correction based on the matching of the crosstalk between both channels with the Foz. I would never buy an arm that did not allow for Azimuth...wait, I did once before...It was the Kenner Close & Play I owned as a child. :-)
Dear Rockitman: +++++ " Most owners ask us about adjustment. To all we say: add the cartridge and listen the music, then immediately you understand, why we omit div. adjustment tools.
This tone arm is built to bring all the musicality of your LP’s! " ++++

of course, Da Vinci distortions named: " musicality!!!!

No sense at all.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dertonarm, yes I'm well aware of that so what are the other sites with these items for sale then.

I think the comment was more of a snide remark by In_shore
We can go for the new Da-Vinci Master's Reference Tonearm "Virtu" incl. new azimuth adjustment. Oh, we have and optional SME adapter. Cheers !
Someone somewhere wrote of the DaVinci that lack of azimuth adjustment made for a simplified construction and in part could account for the perceived superb sound quality. And I think there may be some truth in that. The add-on mechanisms required to allow for azimuth adjustment, different as they are among different expensive tonearms, probably do introduce some measure of added distortion. These things are always a trade-off, and I would not kick a DaVinci out of my house on the basis that it lacked azimuth adjustment.

On the other hand, I have to disagree with Dertonearm. None of us, including him, can "examine" a cartridge and thereby determine whether it came from the factory with perfect azimuth alignment, mostly because the "money" is where we cannot see it, up inside the cartridge body or within the magnet structure for cartridges that do not have a "body" per se. Perfect azimuth is NOT necessarily determined by observing whether the stylus is perfectly perpendicular to the plane of the headshell; it is merely a good start in that direction. Nor do I think that most manufacturers' quality control is so good that we can expect azimuth perfection in proportion to the dollars (or Euros) spent on the cartridge. That's just wishful thinking, and if we return all cartridges that are not perfect in that parameter, most manufacturers would go broke or change businesses.

If I understand Halcro correctly, he is implying that having the capacity to adjust azimuth is actually a disadvantage, because with such tonearms there is the equal possibility that the headshell will not be plane parallel to the LP surface on any given day, just by random chance and due to limited visual acuity, even when the mounting is perfectly done. So it follows if the tonearm has provision for azimuth adjustment, one is almost obligated to determine correct azimuth and adjust for it. He may have something there.
Sorry, should have written "including he", not "including him" in the second paragraph above.
Dear Lewm, you are right. No one - including me ..;-) ... - can judge by eyeside whether a given stylus' polished contact areas are correctly aligned on the cantilever.
This was a great issue in the1980s with most all "audiophile" cartridges of the day. We had to deal with that.
Halcro has indeed raised a VERY important point here:
If we can adjust azimuth and do indeed use that adjustment, we may very well end up in the woods.
Now what if one mount a new cartridge and realizes that the sound is much more dominant towards the left channel?
Will you adjust azimuth ?
Instantly ?
Just a bit - and ... Yes! .... now the sound is more balanced!
Maybe there is a bit more distortion on the left channel in peaks now - but that can be fixed with antiskating set accordingly - right ?
That is a normal scenario.
But what, if the cartridge's stylus was perfectly vertical in the first.
It was just that the two coils had quite some difference in their output.
The apparent "cure" thus led to the wrong path and ultimately to damaged groove and increased disproportional wear on the stylus.
Before we use any prospective azimuth adjustment I for one would make absolutely sure first what is the output of each coil - that has to be determined WITHOUT a groove of course.
When I know the output of both coils, then I have a parameter to build upon and can judge a disbalance in the stereo output on a solid foundation.

However - given today's technique and the fact that no one has to deal with this problem in low-budget and DJ-cartridges - I still see NO POINT in accepting on a multi-hundred (thousand..) cartridge a stylus with less than perfect orientation.

Azimuth alignment should not be necessary.
If applied however, the usershould first determine the exact output of the two coils to have a sure basis.
Der,

what' the best/easiest way (tools) to determine (test) for balanced voltage output of the cart coils ?
Rockitman, all you need is an oscillating pad and a µV meter - that's it.
The technical straight way to determine coil output independent from stylus position/mounting position.
This way you get the raw coil response - totally independent of any position of the polished area to a groove.
I am sure that the "usual suspects" here on Audiogon did - of course ... - already knew it......
As always,
D.
Dear DT, Adjusting azimuth is not the best way to deal with channel imbalance that you describe in your example. Azimuth has very little effect on channel balance. Azimuth affects crosstalk, of the L channel signal into the R channel and vice-versa. This is not the same as channel balance. To prove this to myself, I once did the experiment with my Triplanar. Extreme azimuth change, from one side to the other, effected at most a 1db change in channel balance (going from extreme right bias to extreme left bias), and in doing so resulted in azimuth that was entirely unacceptable in any other way. (Stylus way over on its side, so signal was distorted and stylus wear would be an issue, and crosstalk was way off.)
Dear Lewm, I know it is crosstalk - nevertheless, give my proposition a thought and muse about what is the motivation in most set-ups to start "adjusting" azimuth ?
In other words - I for one haven't seen a mispositioned (i.e. anything else than dead 90° vertical) stylus in the last 12 years on ANY new cartridge.
So .... why do we adjust azimuth then ?
Dertonarm, you are stretching miles to defend the undefendable and might end up in the woods. We are not living in a perfect audio world. Azimuth adjustment available on the arm should be a better solution (although not cost effective for 5K arm) in the unfortunate event when needed than using tiny washers between head shell and cartridge (which is very cost effective for 11K arm).

BTW, your preset opinion against the German arm on the Subject is well documented in another discussion even before its availability and the availability of Uni-Pro as well.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1263686265&openfrom&1&4&&st50

Guess what's really count counts, that's why Uni-Pro has a template for the relative new German arm in the subject. My doubts are whether the template provided by Uni-Pro can be trusted.
10-26-11: Dertonarm
Rockitman, all you need is an oscillating pad and a µV meter - that's it.
The technical straight way to determine coil output independent from stylus position/mounting position.
This way you get the raw coil response - totally independent of any position of the polished area to a groove.

So you mean an Oscilloscope ? And if so, is it simply a matter of connecting the Oscilloscope ground clip to the ground on the left channel and the hot clip (+) to the positive (hot) on the left channel and measuring the voltage, then doing the same for the right channel and then comparing the two to see if the voltages match ? I don't have much Oscilloscope use experience. Just trying to undertsand how I would go about measuring the voltages.
Kdl, I am not "defending the undefendable", but trying (apparently futile with some ..but no problem with that either ) to show, that azimuth adjustment is a bit more tricky and demanding than most think.
And it often leads in the wrong direction.
Give me a reason why we should accept cartridges with a mispositioned stylus.
And don't tell me we have to because it is a fact of life.
It is not a fact - it is the exception and showing ill product quality - and there is no reason to accept a lousy manufactured product.
At least - not for me.
Period.
You won't find a NIB Lyra cartridge with a mispositioned stylus - and you won't find a NOS FR-7 series cartridge of 30+ years with a mispositioned stylus.

TW 10.5 ...;-) ... within Germany the history of that "german tonearm" is much better known than in the USA.

Read careful what you are quoting.
I took position against the "pre-introduction hype and laurels" - for good reason.
I am not particular crazy about that tonearm - because I see and hear no reason to do so.
The tonearm is o.k. and not cheap - no more, no less.
Period.
Sorry to have hurt the feelings of part of the fan-group.

You may have your doubts - as everyone who has no 1st-hand information.
You may ask a few TW 10.5 users (about 4 in the US do have an UNI-template for their TW 10.5 - I do everything on customer's request ...) - they will confirm that their 10.5 sounds in no way worse with "my" template.

All the TW fan group - and a few others will have a great time this late winter when my tonearm is introduced.
But relax - the price will put it out of reach for most, 70% of the limited edition is already sold prior to launch and it requests some really serious turntables to be mounted.

You'll have fun.
Dear Rockitman, I meant an oscillating pad - like the Nagaoka stylus cleaner or similar.
Then you need a µV meter.
An Oscilloscope isn't necessary, but nice to have anyway.
Yes, - you are measuring the output of each coil in µV/mV.
Dear Der, if I went the oscilloscope route, is my explanation of the process to measure voltage on a cart correct ?
10-26-11: Dertonarm

TW 10.5 ...;-) ... within Germany the history of that "german tonearm" is much better known than in the USA.

Read careful what you are quoting.
I took position against the "pre-introduction hype and laurels" - for good reason.

All the TW fan group - and a few others will have a great time this late winter when my tonearm is introduced.
But relax - the price will put it out of reach for most, 70% of the limited edition is already sold prior to launch and it requests some really serious turntables to be mounted.

You'll have fun.

Is this qualified for "pre-introduction hype and laurels" by yourself? :)
I need neither hype nor (pre-)laurels.
As I am not looking for a share of the market I have no need for either.
I've designed this tonearm for myself - and a few friends.
Whether others will like it or not is utterly unimportant.
In fact - I would be disappointed if I do not get fierce opposition by the mere sight of my design.
Don't let me down ...;-) .....
Dear Rockitman, your procedure is correct the way you described it.
Thank you Der.
To the origin OP,

I have owned both arms: TW 10.5 an a 12inch Davinci. I tried both arms with 4-5 carts. Of these two, I would pick the TW over the 12inch Davinci.

On the sonic side, I feel the 12inch Davinci slows the transient attack slightly and imbue the sound with rich wood tone. This translate into "luxorious" listening experience which some people like but not what I am after. The TW is able to portray a wider contrast betw the different carts.

On the ergo side, I prefer to have Azimuth adjustments to tease out the last degree of channel separation. I dislike the VTA adjustment on the Davinci. For upward VTA adjustment, YOu need to loosen up the clamp screw and manually lift the arm pillar. While holding the arm pillar, adjust a side screw to touch the arm base in order to support the arm pillar . Now slowly twist the screw to decrease VTA. After that, fasten the clamp, twist the side screw so it no longer touches the arm base. I don't insist on VTA on the fly. Arms like centroid, dyna 507 don't have VTA on the fly but still much more convenient and repeatable. The antiskate is call magnetic dumping in the Davinci if I understand correctly. For some carts, I could not dial in enough antiskate for the 12 inch arm. I suspect the skating force is applied at the stylus tip which translate into more torque for the antiskate mechanism to contend with.

If I have to get the Davinci again, I would rather have 9inch or 10inch for lower effective mass and hopefully better transient reproduction. The 9 or 10inch may also allow for azimuth adjustment.

The new design may have corrected for a lot of the inconveniences I mention.

Good luck
Dear Kdl: Thank's for that link that confirm again all what is behind this German seller.

How missed I that thread?, two first pages are " great " and the Halcro post remembered/remind that heavy/ colossal trashing that M. Kelly infringe Dertonarm in a tonearm subject where Dertonarm think is " God " was memorable for say the least. Like here trying to defend the undefendable only because " his ignorance level say so ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
German seller means:Dertonarm.
Dear Glai: I think your post gives very good " light " for Luna.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
TW ACUSTIC 10.5 better built much better sounding
Dertonearm, I guess it is fair to say that misinformed persons might play with azimuth to correct channel imbalance, but one hopes such persons would soon learn the folly of their ways. As to your second statement, I don't often look at styli with a microscope, so I take your word for it that they are seldom mispositioned, but I have seen many a "high end" cartridge with slightly off-center cantilevers or cantilevers that are at an angle with respect to the mid-line of the cartridge body. In any case, none of these visual cues are sufficient to make one sanguine about azimuth, because the misalignment that necessitates azimuth adjustment is usually not visible by external inspection, even with a microscope, as I wrote before. It's a matter of how the coils align with the magnet structure.
Dear Rockitman,
If you want to use your own tools to adjust for azimuth, I do not think it is as simple as Dertonearm implies. You also need a pure test tone on an LP (usually 1kHz will suffice, but if you are fanatical you could use more than one frequency, and ideally a notch filter to get rid of spurious noise above and below the test frequency. This is why Fozgometer sells. You zero out both channels for equal gain. Then you play a test signal on one channel only. Measure voltage. Call that "0db". Now play the same test signal into the same channel and measure voltage that appears on the opposite channel. That will be a much smaller voltage, hopefully. Convert that into db, which will be a negative number, like -20db or lower. This is "crosstalk". Do the same in reverse. You will have two values of crosstalk in terms of negative db. Now play with azimuth and see how the values change. Some like to adjust for equal crosstalk in both channels. Some others like to adjust for lowest possible crosstalk, regardless of whether the numbers are equal in value. (I have always observed that I can get less crosstalk if I settle for unequal crosstalk. For example, I might be able to get -25db in both channels at 1 kHz. But if I just shoot for least crosstalk, I might get two values of say -28db and -30db. Life is funny that way.)
Dear Lewm, maybe I wasn't not clear on that one: with oscillating pad I was referring to an oscillating pad indeed - i.e. those pads do oscillate with frequencies between 400 and 2.5kHz.
During oscillation that frequency is transmitted into the coils - thus you have the very same effect as if tracking a groove.
Just doing so w/o actually tracking the groove and thus it is the "raw" coil response.
Back in the 1980s we had a nice comment about azimuth adjustment: "if you can feel or see the adjustment, - then you've already gone too far".
In other words - IF your stylus/cantilever is off the vertical ideal, it will most likely be by such a small degree, that any alternation by hand will cure it only by dump luck.
The problem is an entirely different game however if we are talking about used/second hand cartridges.
As the "art of aligning" a cartridge is a rarely taught and understood one, we will find a large portion of second hand cartridges with unbalanced worn stylus AND - most often - slightly bend/misaligned cantilever due to wrong adjusted antiskating.

I have had the pleasure to examine and listen to about 160 audio set-ups in private home sin the past 30+ years.
Including the set-ups of quite some respectable audio reviewers.
In England, the US (including HP's set-up in Sea Cliff two times in the late 1980s and early 1990s) , France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, HongKong and Mexico ( ...;-) ...).
Prices for these set-up ranged from about 20k$ to 2.8million$.
Now don't ask me in how many of these set-ups the alignment of the cartridge/tonearm was entirely correct ( not sound wise - geometrical I mean) in all parameters.
I am not referring to tangential alignment only - I mean VTF, azimuth ( ...;-) ...), most often anti skating, not even to mention groove compliant VTA/SRA.

Funny thing here however is, that I get the impression that a good portion of the audiophiles simply cope with misplaced stylus as if it were a fact of nature and beyond the reach of mankind to ensure that all top-dollar cartridge feature a dead 90° stylus.
This might either be "german" nature to insist on quality and technical flawless components when it is possible.
And it is easy possible here.
If one reads slowly and careful the posts in this thread, it is obvious that I did from the start note that azimuth adjustment SHOULDN'T be needed at all.
But apparently many audiophiles are just happy enough that any sound is coming out of their set-up at all and take lousy quality control and careless manufacturer as a penalty from higher forces laid upon the poor and miserable audiophile to suffer in the painful valley on earth.

And - by all means - forget a microscope here.
I have a bunch of good microscope photographs of worn stylus here in my files - these were taken with electron-microscopes and in special aligned settings.
Cartridge manufacturer do - and since quite some time - feature special set-ups where ultra accurate placement of the stylus is long an easy and swift procedure.

I really wonder if we would had this discussion here at all if we were talking about the spillage of cars.
No one - absolutely no one here would accept misaligned spillage in one's new car.
10-27-11: Lewm
Dear Rockitman,
If you want to use your own tools to adjust for azimuth, I do not think it is as simple as Dertonearm implies. You also need a pure test tone on an LP (usually 1kHz will suffice, but if you are fanatical you could use more than one frequency, and ideally a notch filter to get rid of spurious noise above and below the test frequency. This is why Fozgometer sells. You zero out both channels for equal gain. Then you play a test signal on one channel only. Measure voltage. Call that "0db". Now play the same test signal into the same channel and measure voltage that appears on the opposite channel. That will be a much smaller voltage, hopefully. Convert that into db, which will be a negative number, like -20db or lower. This is "crosstalk". Do the same in reverse. You will have two values of crosstalk in terms of negative db. Now play with azimuth and see how the values change. Some like to adjust for equal crosstalk in both channels. Some others like to adjust for lowest possible crosstalk, regardless of whether the numbers are equal in value. (I have always observed that I can get less crosstalk if I settle for unequal crosstalk. For example, I might be able to get -25db in both channels at 1 kHz. But if I just shoot for least crosstalk, I might get two values of say -28db and -30db. Life is funny that way.)

Dear Lewm. I own a Fozgometer and a few test records with the 1 kHz tone and do use it to set azimuth. My inquiry with Dertonarm related to the coil output voltages (Channel Balance) and whether the output is equal on both channels of the cart in question.
Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " Cartridge manufacturer do - and since quite some time - feature special set-ups where ultra accurate placement of the stylus is long an easy and swift procedure.
" +++++

as always only " bla, bla, bla, " where you are very good but with out any real facts that prove with certain that your statements are true. In almost no one of your statements against the Raven and in favor of the Grandezza you give any certain facts that gives foundation true foundation on what you stated.
This is your " history " always. If we take the link on the Raven tonearm that posted Kdl we can read a post from Ttttt where he made a specific question:

++++Dertonarm,

Just to get back to the market situation:

What are the technical issues in tonearm design? ++++

and as always you made a " history " ( a long one because you are a good " chuildren teller " tales. ) with no specifc answer and this is what Ttttt posted about:

++++ Dertonarm,

Thanks for the explanations of the Graham an Wheaton. I already knew the details. That is not my point and a different story.

I am asking you, because you are claiming to have the superior knowledge in this case. " ++++++

In the other side and now that you already ( as always too. ) put some " clouds " on the main Raven/Grandezza subject in this thread you don't answer the other limitation on the Grandezza that you dimished: anti-skate, which is your " history " here on why is not need it.
All people here are waiting for your answer and I hope no more dark clouds in your posts but facts proved facts that on the azymuth subject you did not because IMHO you have nothing on hand other than your " tales ".

This is not the first time, as we can read on that link and in other Raven treads, you are in conflict in a " personal " manner with Raven in the same way you showed the same personal conflict with Schroeder tonearm and Frank it self, so how much of what you said about is really true ( even with out facts ) and not only your internal/self/mind conflict with Raven as happened with Scroeder? IMHO in this regard you are full non-trusty with non-trusty opinions.

Of course that you are wise enough to leave out that " conflict " and give a non-biased opinion that like other people opinions always is welcomed.

regards and enjoyy the music,
R.
D: All that in good shape. IMHO we don't need clouds to create confussion we need " clean " facts that help everyone to understand where we are seated that is the real world and not where we desire to be seated that's today is only a good hope or dream.

R.