TW-Acustic Raven 10.5 or DaVinci Grandezza??

Dear Lewm, maybe I wasn't not clear on that one: with oscillating pad I was referring to an oscillating pad indeed - i.e. those pads do oscillate with frequencies between 400 and 2.5kHz.
During oscillation that frequency is transmitted into the coils - thus you have the very same effect as if tracking a groove.
Just doing so w/o actually tracking the groove and thus it is the "raw" coil response.
Back in the 1980s we had a nice comment about azimuth adjustment: "if you can feel or see the adjustment, - then you've already gone too far".
In other words - IF your stylus/cantilever is off the vertical ideal, it will most likely be by such a small degree, that any alternation by hand will cure it only by dump luck.
The problem is an entirely different game however if we are talking about used/second hand cartridges.
As the "art of aligning" a cartridge is a rarely taught and understood one, we will find a large portion of second hand cartridges with unbalanced worn stylus AND - most often - slightly bend/misaligned cantilever due to wrong adjusted antiskating.

I have had the pleasure to examine and listen to about 160 audio set-ups in private home sin the past 30+ years.
Including the set-ups of quite some respectable audio reviewers.
In England, the US (including HP's set-up in Sea Cliff two times in the late 1980s and early 1990s) , France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, HongKong and Mexico ( ...;-) ...).
Prices for these set-up ranged from about 20k$ to 2.8million$.
Now don't ask me in how many of these set-ups the alignment of the cartridge/tonearm was entirely correct ( not sound wise - geometrical I mean) in all parameters.
I am not referring to tangential alignment only - I mean VTF, azimuth ( ...;-) ...), most often anti skating, not even to mention groove compliant VTA/SRA.

Funny thing here however is, that I get the impression that a good portion of the audiophiles simply cope with misplaced stylus as if it were a fact of nature and beyond the reach of mankind to ensure that all top-dollar cartridge feature a dead 90° stylus.
This might either be "german" nature to insist on quality and technical flawless components when it is possible.
And it is easy possible here.
If one reads slowly and careful the posts in this thread, it is obvious that I did from the start note that azimuth adjustment SHOULDN'T be needed at all.
But apparently many audiophiles are just happy enough that any sound is coming out of their set-up at all and take lousy quality control and careless manufacturer as a penalty from higher forces laid upon the poor and miserable audiophile to suffer in the painful valley on earth.

And - by all means - forget a microscope here.
I have a bunch of good microscope photographs of worn stylus here in my files - these were taken with electron-microscopes and in special aligned settings.
Cartridge manufacturer do - and since quite some time - feature special set-ups where ultra accurate placement of the stylus is long an easy and swift procedure.

I really wonder if we would had this discussion here at all if we were talking about the spillage of cars.
No one - absolutely no one here would accept misaligned spillage in one's new car.

10-27-11: Lewm
Dear Rockitman,
If you want to use your own tools to adjust for azimuth, I do not think it is as simple as Dertonearm implies. You also need a pure test tone on an LP (usually 1kHz will suffice, but if you are fanatical you could use more than one frequency, and ideally a notch filter to get rid of spurious noise above and below the test frequency. This is why Fozgometer sells. You zero out both channels for equal gain. Then you play a test signal on one channel only. Measure voltage. Call that "0db". Now play the same test signal into the same channel and measure voltage that appears on the opposite channel. That will be a much smaller voltage, hopefully. Convert that into db, which will be a negative number, like -20db or lower. This is "crosstalk". Do the same in reverse. You will have two values of crosstalk in terms of negative db. Now play with azimuth and see how the values change. Some like to adjust for equal crosstalk in both channels. Some others like to adjust for lowest possible crosstalk, regardless of whether the numbers are equal in value. (I have always observed that I can get less crosstalk if I settle for unequal crosstalk. For example, I might be able to get -25db in both channels at 1 kHz. But if I just shoot for least crosstalk, I might get two values of say -28db and -30db. Life is funny that way.)

Dear Lewm. I own a Fozgometer and a few test records with the 1 kHz tone and do use it to set azimuth. My inquiry with Dertonarm related to the coil output voltages (Channel Balance) and whether the output is equal on both channels of the cart in question.

Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " Cartridge manufacturer do - and since quite some time - feature special set-ups where ultra accurate placement of the stylus is long an easy and swift procedure.
" +++++

as always only " bla, bla, bla, " where you are very good but with out any real facts that prove with certain that your statements are true. In almost no one of your statements against the Raven and in favor of the Grandezza you give any certain facts that gives foundation true foundation on what you stated.
This is your " history " always. If we take the link on the Raven tonearm that posted Kdl we can read a post from Ttttt where he made a specific question:

++++Dertonarm,

Just to get back to the market situation:

What are the technical issues in tonearm design? ++++

and as always you made a " history " ( a long one because you are a good " chuildren teller " tales. ) with no specifc answer and this is what Ttttt posted about:

++++ Dertonarm,

Thanks for the explanations of the Graham an Wheaton. I already knew the details. That is not my point and a different story.

I am asking you, because you are claiming to have the superior knowledge in this case. " ++++++

In the other side and now that you already ( as always too. ) put some " clouds " on the main Raven/Grandezza subject in this thread you don't answer the other limitation on the Grandezza that you dimished: anti-skate, which is your " history " here on why is not need it.
All people here are waiting for your answer and I hope no more dark clouds in your posts but facts proved facts that on the azymuth subject you did not because IMHO you have nothing on hand other than your " tales ".

This is not the first time, as we can read on that link and in other Raven treads, you are in conflict in a " personal " manner with Raven in the same way you showed the same personal conflict with Schroeder tonearm and Frank it self, so how much of what you said about is really true ( even with out facts ) and not only your internal/self/mind conflict with Raven as happened with Scroeder? IMHO in this regard you are full non-trusty with non-trusty opinions.

Of course that you are wise enough to leave out that " conflict " and give a non-biased opinion that like other people opinions always is welcomed.

regards and enjoyy the music,
R.

D: All that in good shape. IMHO we don't need clouds to create confussion we need " clean " facts that help everyone to understand where we are seated that is the real world and not where we desire to be seated that's today is only a good hope or dream.

R.

Dear Rockitman, dear Lewm, in the early 2000s the Denon DL-103R was introduced.
I bought over a span of about 18 months a total of 46 samples.
Denon - as always - does include it's nice plotted frequency response with the output of both channels in mV.
The output did differ over a range from as low as 0.23mV up to 0.42mV.
Out of these 46 samples - which did came in 3 batches - 4 samples showed absolutely identical output on both coils.
At least identical to 0.005 mV.
Each of these 4 samples sounded VERY different to all the other 42 samples.
Much better than any of the other 42.
In terms of soundstage dimensions, extension and rock solid imaging during crescendi they were the equal of cartridges costing 20x as much.
Each of these 4 samples would have made a excellent example for the 50+ years of fame this particular cartridge enjoys.
Needless to say - each of these 46 samples had a 90° on spot stylus - judged by eyesight.
With the 4 "prime samples" and 4 others I had them examined with an electron-microscope to confirm what mere eyesight and sound did suggest - no derivation from 90° vertical.
With a then US$180 cartridge.
All top performing cartridges where I had a chance to examine their respective output of the coils did show VERY good matched coils indeed.

My cartridge manufacturer would do us a great favor by including a test sheet with the individual output of the coils, source impedance and their inductance ( with LOMCs in particular).

I believe - and have found exactly that on many occasions (read: set-up's in private audio systems ) - that most "azimuth corrections" were in fact stimulated by noticeable unbalanced output, - but ascribed to a misplaced stylus.

I am not a fan of the DaVinci, but I respect Brehm's point of view.
Having had a brief audition to his cartridge - which is dead on 90° of course - I see why his statement was made.
If - IF - all cartridge manufacturers out there would do their work as promised ( I know that Lyra, Ikeda, Denon, AT/Signet, Ortofon do ), there simply should be no need for azimuth adjustment.
Especially so, as - by the sheer frequency it is mentioned and apparently "applied" - it often is used without need and by error.

As is anti-skating.
The large portion of misplaced cantilever in used market cartridges speaks a clear statement here.

A statement which should now promote the thread even further ....;-) ...