The tonearm designed to matched the turntable ....?
Serious ?
If a cartridge has a misplaced stylus - i.e. the need for azimuth alignment to compensate that - give it back to the dealer for full refund or exchange.
Every US$80 DJ-cartridge is dead on 90° perfect azimuth.
You shouldn't ask for less from any cartridge costing any multiple.
There is good reason why some very respective tonearms out there - and some since 30 years .. SME V - do not feature an azimuth alignment option.
Why compensate something you should never accept in the first ? |
Well, Audiogon isn't the only web-platform for used audio components ..... |
The Koshin/Lustre tonearm is indeed an interesting design. It was sold in pretty large quantities in Germany. Especially so since Thorens offered the Koshin/Lustre as one of the 3 choices coming with a TD126 mk3.
The can be bought second hand for about 500 USD.
They were often referred to as "poor man's Fidelity Research FR-64".
Nice heavy mass tonearm.
Not great, but nice and well above the average. |
If you have the choice and if you are looking for value ( especially in the "unlikely event" that you may eventually want to sell the tonearm one day ..) AND performance I would recommend going for the DaVinci Grandezza (10" or 12" if possible).
The DaVinci will be a future classic - for design and performance and is THE single component which has put DaVinci on the map. |
Dear Halcro, Raul had to favor the Raven by all means.
Why ?
Simply because I favored the DaVinci ....
It always works this way.
I for one would NEVER accept a cartridge which needs azimuth adjustment.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Kipdent, on the price level we are usually talking about in high-end audio NO customer should accept a cartridge with anything less than a perfect 90° orientated stylus.
On this premise azimuth adjustment in the tonearm is indeed obsolete.
If a customer requests azimuth adjustment to compensate lousy quality control by the manufacturer of a given cartridge, that is another story.
One should however take azimuth adjustment VERY cautious, as ever so often it is NOT a misplaced stylus which is compensated, but differences in output between the two channels.
This is ground full of trap-holes here.
As for Fozgometer and similar products - they do find their buyers and many feel comfortable with them.
Fine.
I for one expect - as a conditio sine qua non in priori - that a cartridge I buy features a dead on 90° stylus.
Would you accept track and rake errors in your new car's axle beam ??
Can't imagine that.
Likewise I see no point to accept a manufacturer misplaced stylus in the first. |
Dear Lewm, you are right. No one - including me ..;-) ... - can judge by eyeside whether a given stylus' polished contact areas are correctly aligned on the cantilever.
This was a great issue in the1980s with most all "audiophile" cartridges of the day. We had to deal with that.
Halcro has indeed raised a VERY important point here:
If we can adjust azimuth and do indeed use that adjustment, we may very well end up in the woods.
Now what if one mount a new cartridge and realizes that the sound is much more dominant towards the left channel?
Will you adjust azimuth ?
Instantly ?
Just a bit - and ... Yes! .... now the sound is more balanced!
Maybe there is a bit more distortion on the left channel in peaks now - but that can be fixed with antiskating set accordingly - right ?
That is a normal scenario.
But what, if the cartridge's stylus was perfectly vertical in the first.
It was just that the two coils had quite some difference in their output.
The apparent "cure" thus led to the wrong path and ultimately to damaged groove and increased disproportional wear on the stylus.
Before we use any prospective azimuth adjustment I for one would make absolutely sure first what is the output of each coil - that has to be determined WITHOUT a groove of course.
When I know the output of both coils, then I have a parameter to build upon and can judge a disbalance in the stereo output on a solid foundation.
However - given today's technique and the fact that no one has to deal with this problem in low-budget and DJ-cartridges - I still see NO POINT in accepting on a multi-hundred (thousand..) cartridge a stylus with less than perfect orientation.
Azimuth alignment should not be necessary.
If applied however, the usershould first determine the exact output of the two coils to have a sure basis. |
Rockitman, all you need is an oscillating pad and a µV meter - that's it.
The technical straight way to determine coil output independent from stylus position/mounting position.
This way you get the raw coil response - totally independent of any position of the polished area to a groove.
I am sure that the "usual suspects" here on Audiogon did - of course ... - already knew it......
As always,
D. |
Dear Lewm, I know it is crosstalk - nevertheless, give my proposition a thought and muse about what is the motivation in most set-ups to start "adjusting" azimuth ?
In other words - I for one haven't seen a mispositioned (i.e. anything else than dead 90° vertical) stylus in the last 12 years on ANY new cartridge.
So .... why do we adjust azimuth then ? |
Kdl, I am not "defending the undefendable", but trying (apparently futile with some ..but no problem with that either ) to show, that azimuth adjustment is a bit more tricky and demanding than most think.
And it often leads in the wrong direction.
Give me a reason why we should accept cartridges with a mispositioned stylus.
And don't tell me we have to because it is a fact of life.
It is not a fact - it is the exception and showing ill product quality - and there is no reason to accept a lousy manufactured product.
At least - not for me.
Period.
You won't find a NIB Lyra cartridge with a mispositioned stylus - and you won't find a NOS FR-7 series cartridge of 30+ years with a mispositioned stylus.
TW 10.5 ...;-) ... within Germany the history of that "german tonearm" is much better known than in the USA.
Read careful what you are quoting.
I took position against the "pre-introduction hype and laurels" - for good reason.
I am not particular crazy about that tonearm - because I see and hear no reason to do so.
The tonearm is o.k. and not cheap - no more, no less.
Period.
Sorry to have hurt the feelings of part of the fan-group.
You may have your doubts - as everyone who has no 1st-hand information.
You may ask a few TW 10.5 users (about 4 in the US do have an UNI-template for their TW 10.5 - I do everything on customer's request ...) - they will confirm that their 10.5 sounds in no way worse with "my" template.
All the TW fan group - and a few others will have a great time this late winter when my tonearm is introduced.
But relax - the price will put it out of reach for most, 70% of the limited edition is already sold prior to launch and it requests some really serious turntables to be mounted.
You'll have fun. |
Dear Rockitman, I meant an oscillating pad - like the Nagaoka stylus cleaner or similar.
Then you need a µV meter.
An Oscilloscope isn't necessary, but nice to have anyway.
Yes, - you are measuring the output of each coil in µV/mV. |
I need neither hype nor (pre-)laurels.
As I am not looking for a share of the market I have no need for either.
I've designed this tonearm for myself - and a few friends.
Whether others will like it or not is utterly unimportant.
In fact - I would be disappointed if I do not get fierce opposition by the mere sight of my design.
Don't let me down ...;-) ..... |
Dear Rockitman, your procedure is correct the way you described it. |
Dear Lewm, maybe I wasn't not clear on that one: with oscillating pad I was referring to an oscillating pad indeed - i.e. those pads do oscillate with frequencies between 400 and 2.5kHz.
During oscillation that frequency is transmitted into the coils - thus you have the very same effect as if tracking a groove.
Just doing so w/o actually tracking the groove and thus it is the "raw" coil response.
Back in the 1980s we had a nice comment about azimuth adjustment: "if you can feel or see the adjustment, - then you've already gone too far".
In other words - IF your stylus/cantilever is off the vertical ideal, it will most likely be by such a small degree, that any alternation by hand will cure it only by dump luck.
The problem is an entirely different game however if we are talking about used/second hand cartridges.
As the "art of aligning" a cartridge is a rarely taught and understood one, we will find a large portion of second hand cartridges with unbalanced worn stylus AND - most often - slightly bend/misaligned cantilever due to wrong adjusted antiskating.
I have had the pleasure to examine and listen to about 160 audio set-ups in private home sin the past 30+ years.
Including the set-ups of quite some respectable audio reviewers.
In England, the US (including HP's set-up in Sea Cliff two times in the late 1980s and early 1990s) , France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, HongKong and Mexico ( ...;-) ...).
Prices for these set-up ranged from about 20k$ to 2.8million$.
Now don't ask me in how many of these set-ups the alignment of the cartridge/tonearm was entirely correct ( not sound wise - geometrical I mean) in all parameters.
I am not referring to tangential alignment only - I mean VTF, azimuth ( ...;-) ...), most often anti skating, not even to mention groove compliant VTA/SRA.
Funny thing here however is, that I get the impression that a good portion of the audiophiles simply cope with misplaced stylus as if it were a fact of nature and beyond the reach of mankind to ensure that all top-dollar cartridge feature a dead 90° stylus.
This might either be "german" nature to insist on quality and technical flawless components when it is possible.
And it is easy possible here.
If one reads slowly and careful the posts in this thread, it is obvious that I did from the start note that azimuth adjustment SHOULDN'T be needed at all.
But apparently many audiophiles are just happy enough that any sound is coming out of their set-up at all and take lousy quality control and careless manufacturer as a penalty from higher forces laid upon the poor and miserable audiophile to suffer in the painful valley on earth.
And - by all means - forget a microscope here.
I have a bunch of good microscope photographs of worn stylus here in my files - these were taken with electron-microscopes and in special aligned settings.
Cartridge manufacturer do - and since quite some time - feature special set-ups where ultra accurate placement of the stylus is long an easy and swift procedure.
I really wonder if we would had this discussion here at all if we were talking about the spillage of cars.
No one - absolutely no one here would accept misaligned spillage in one's new car. |
Dear Wrm57, no, anti-skating is necessary - depending on the cartridge, stylus shape, compliance and VTF, geometry of tonearm and effective length of tonearm and thus resulting off-set.
There are tonearm/cartridge combinations where anti-skating in mandatory and there are certain tonearm/cartridge combinations where anti-skting compensation is obsolete.
It depends - such I have incorporated an anti-skating compensation.
An unique one. |
Dear Lewm, these shots aren't digitalised yet, but I will try my best and send you a few shots by PM in a few days.
And - oh, yes ... you will clearly see disproportional wear on one of the stylus.
BTW - due to "azimuth adjustment" ......
No, I can't tell by mere eyesight whether a stylus is 90° dead vertical.
And I haven't stated in this thread that I can.
That's why I conducted a survey.
In general - in general ... - it no longer a problem today in NEW cartridges.
But get a cartridge from "demo" or used and you will find a hell of a lot with displaced/disorientated cantilever due to erratic applied anti-skating and/or disproportional worn stylus. |
Dear Rockitman, dear Lewm, in the early 2000s the Denon DL-103R was introduced.
I bought over a span of about 18 months a total of 46 samples.
Denon - as always - does include it's nice plotted frequency response with the output of both channels in mV.
The output did differ over a range from as low as 0.23mV up to 0.42mV.
Out of these 46 samples - which did came in 3 batches - 4 samples showed absolutely identical output on both coils.
At least identical to 0.005 mV.
Each of these 4 samples sounded VERY different to all the other 42 samples.
Much better than any of the other 42.
In terms of soundstage dimensions, extension and rock solid imaging during crescendi they were the equal of cartridges costing 20x as much.
Each of these 4 samples would have made a excellent example for the 50+ years of fame this particular cartridge enjoys.
Needless to say - each of these 46 samples had a 90° on spot stylus - judged by eyesight.
With the 4 "prime samples" and 4 others I had them examined with an electron-microscope to confirm what mere eyesight and sound did suggest - no derivation from 90° vertical.
With a then US$180 cartridge.
All top performing cartridges where I had a chance to examine their respective output of the coils did show VERY good matched coils indeed.
My cartridge manufacturer would do us a great favor by including a test sheet with the individual output of the coils, source impedance and their inductance ( with LOMCs in particular).
I believe - and have found exactly that on many occasions (read: set-up's in private audio systems ) - that most "azimuth corrections" were in fact stimulated by noticeable unbalanced output, - but ascribed to a misplaced stylus.
I am not a fan of the DaVinci, but I respect Brehm's point of view.
Having had a brief audition to his cartridge - which is dead on 90° of course - I see why his statement was made.
If - IF - all cartridge manufacturers out there would do their work as promised ( I know that Lyra, Ikeda, Denon, AT/Signet, Ortofon do ), there simply should be no need for azimuth adjustment.
Especially so, as - by the sheer frequency it is mentioned and apparently "applied" - it often is used without need and by error.
As is anti-skating.
The large portion of misplaced cantilever in used market cartridges speaks a clear statement here.
A statement which should now promote the thread even further ....;-) ... |
Dear Lbelchev, you will be surprised, but again the key problem is reading.
Perrew asked for my opinion what constitutes a good tonearm.
I said above the DaVinci sounds good (if aligned exactly) and that it does represent a better value ( particular in future sale on the used market ) than the other contender.
About azimuth adjustment, I said above it should not be necessary ..... and that I respect Brehm's point of view.
My tonearm too does feature azimuth adjustment (in fact with fine calibrated scale that is - so one will always get back to precisely set positions) - as you will see in 4 months here pictured on Audiogon.
Still very interesting to see, how very few - of the "fan-groups", as well as the more smart ones here - seem to have a problem in the first with misplaced stylus.
Did I miss something here and is it indeed an inevitable law of nature?
Or were we just told for so long it is?
I am realizing that I fight a rather lonely battle here - but no problem, I am used to it.
Following one of SJ's key phrases automatically leads to this.
So - who's next ? |
Kdl, see - I am a pacifist and practicing martial arts since 30 years.
Is this a contradiction and does it mean preaching one thing and doing the other?
If something is beyond one's capability one shouldn't try to judge.
I have incorporated azimuth adjustment in my tonearm - and in a way no one else has done before - because of "customer's request" indeed.
To address all possible requirements - not because I personally need it.
Furthermore to show how it can be done better than before.
I believe in nothing which would tell you anything.
The simplicity of a judgement reflects the mind of the originator.
As William Blake put it so nicely over 2 centuries ago "the eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow".
Take it the way you like to. |
Dear Dover, thank you for the kind comment. I must admit, that the positive correspondence with Audiogoners far outnumbers - and out-weights the unimportant negative feedback and insults by people whom - based on their style as well as their apparent lack of background - I can't take serious anyway.
Especially so, as there still are a lot of seasoned audiophiles who do take their passion really serious in a positive way and strive for real improvement.
It can't be a mistake to try to take as many points into account as possible when trying to get the maximum of performance out of any set-up.
In analog front-end there still are way too many "uncertainties" and aziumth adjustment - as well as anti-skating and the back ground of skating force - is IMHO taken way too easy.
My reservations here are a matter of "field experience".
There are just too many used cartridges out there with disorientated cantilever to believe that the correct application of anti-skating is a solved issue.
And there are way too many cartridges - and I mean cartridges from manufacturers where I KNOW that the stylus is correct placed - "azimuth corrected" mounted (i.e. NOT in parallel to the record's surface in front view).
I would bet that a good portion of those cartridges is mounted in good faith with "azimuth correction", but in fact the motivation was raised by sample inherent channel in-balance and/or misalignment.
We do not need to turn to DaVinci here.
The SME V is a real reference standard since 30 years now.
Robert Atkinson's team had some real good engineers around.
They knew what they were doing.
And they knew why they did not include aziumth adjustment as a feature.
It was discussed widely back then when the eagerly awaited SME V was finally introduced.
From the engineer's point of view the concept was correct.
You assume that the tires you are buying for your car are round - if they aren't, you can't blame the car for not having an adjustment to adapt for that.
You insist on a perfect round tyre which is just as easy a task as a perfect 90° stylus on a cantilever.
So why accepting it in analog audio?
I still think it is a valid request to accept any new cartridge with a dead 90° stylus only.
And I think that manufacturer's who really care about their product - Jonathan Carr for instance - will agree. |
Sorry for the typo ...;-) ... glad the message still arrived. |
Dear Measel, you asked me between the Phantom and Grandezza - and made your decision based on looks.
Which is perfectly fine and the Grandezza is a nice tonearm with very aesthetic looks.
I recommended the DaVinci Grandezza here under different conditions and with a different contender.
And I did so based on performance, looks and prospective future value.
Enjoy your Grandezza.
I have listen to the DaVinci on various occasions in 4 set-ups of seasoned audiophiles and Audiogoners.
It was never an insult to my ears ..;-) ....
I have a Grand Grandezza 12" rhodium plated finish in my small collection.
It is not in use, but it sure looks beautiful. |
Coming back to the universal acceptance of faulty produced cartridges - i.e. cartridges with a stylus not 90° dead center.
If any one reading this thread has had the experience lately ( the last years ...) that he/she/it bought a cartridge new in the shop, took it home, mounted it and found that it needed azimuth adjustment - I would like to know two things:
a) what was the "sonic" reason or evidence for the assumption that it was indeed a misplaced stylus which asked for azimuth adjustment ?
b) why wasn't it returned it to the dealer for refund/exchange but accepted "as is" ?
And - I don't mean cartridges bought second hand like "demo" sample or with "50 hours only - hardly broken in - as new !".
I have no doubt that a hell of a lot of cartridges out there do need azimuth adjustment NOW.
But they did not need it when they were "new out of the box".
They were raped, twisted and misaligned/-orientated by faulty set-up.
After 50 hours playing with way too high anti-skating no cantilever is orientated anymore the way it left the factory.
After 50 hours playing in a tonearm which has ledge and isn't level you certainly need azimuth to correct the now disorientated stylus.
These two aren't the only, but the 2 most prominent and frequent scenarios.
No - don't get me wrong.
I certainly accept that there are misplaced stylus out there which can still perform decent when the azimuth is corrected.
I just state that this can not/shall not/shall not be acceptable with a NEW cartridge.
Not on the price level we are talking about.
No one of us would accept this kind of product quality in any other part of his life ( well, maybe in countries where "quality" isn't really a common phrase ...).
By requesting azimuth adjustment in a tonearm we imply, that we either:
a) use cartridges which we bought second hand - and found out (surprise !) that they need adjustment in that plane.
b) do happily accept low quality control and faulty product for our cash.
c ) believe that this world is an imperfect one in the sense that a simple industrial stylus can't be glued/drilled/placed in place but by dump luck.
That in the times when laser guidance is long an industry standard.
Sorry - but that would mean being badly informed about the subject.
Which isn't necessary in the hey-days of the web we so widely use.
It is about whether I do accept an evitable product fault in the first or not.
It is only in the first matter, that the specific tonearm needs azimuth adjustment. |
Dear Dover, agreed - level of both platter and tonearm board is an issue in a good portion of turntables.
As we are dealing with pretty "small" (quantified in relative ..;-) ..) forces in tonearm alignment, full plane horizontal level is mandatory to ensure the absence of "parasite" forces which will alter the result and thus lead to misalignment.
Anti-skating rarely if ever is applied in any correct form.
Especially so, since skating force itself first is not linear over the groove AND depends on stylus shape, off-set angle and VTF.
Now add an armboard which isn't level ( I would estimate 90+% of all turntables out there ) and/or a turntable which' platter isn't level (talking about speed accuracy ...).
Key problem here is, that really a good bubble/spirit level is both - a bit more expensive but foremost: pretty heavy.
If you are looking for a precision aluminum level with say 0.6 mm/m accuracy for technical purpose, you are looking a something which itself already has a mass in excess of 1 lbs and is 8" long.
If you want to go further/do better - say 0.1 mm/m accuracy and a frame level which you can put nicely around the center of your platter and thus avoid leveling error by the instrument's mass - than we are talking US$500+ and a mass of 2.5-4.8 lbs with precision smoothed contact surface.
That will be accurate, but the sheer mass of the leveling instrument will falsify the result - at least on all turntables which are suspended with pretty low mass.
The spirit levels we see sold for audio purpose are only jokes.
A good way to go is the use of special architectural and measurement laser equipment which "draws" precise leveled lines on objects.
Thus armboards and platters can be leveled without additional mass. |
Dear Lewm, of course you wouldn't fix a non-plane parallel to platter armboard with azimuth.
But there are enough audiophile who do - by error.
I was referring to this because I have found many situations with "azimuth corrected" cartridges which in reality was not a misplaced stylus but a ledge of the armboard towards the platter.
But as the level wasn't checked - precisely or at all - the "apparent" wrong azimuth was "corrected".
This was mentioned, to illustrate the point that "apparent wrong" azimuth isn't always what it seems on first sight. |
Dear Lewm, not only the Reed - you can even adjust azimuth on the venerable FR-60s series tonearms in the way you are used to do it on the Reed.
And since you only have a play of say 0 - 2° in both directions, this "hidden" azimuth adjustment option is indeed located right at the SME-bajonet adapter.
Thus not interfering with VTA nor changing the tonearm's geometry. |
Dgad, "we the people" haven't really noticed your absence. Those able to read without having to go through the matrix of their ego will realize that in the very beginning of any thread - especially with your beloved TW - I only took position against pre-laurels.
I couldn't really see any justified "best" before a product was even introduced and delivered.
While this now has apparently becoming a common rule and we see each week another "best of all times" going and going again.
Same with TW and FS - I personally have no problem with them at all.
Now read this carefully - I know you will.
Nor do I have any problem with their products.
Both do deliver well manufactured components which do reflect the positive in german engineering, quality approach and design.
They aren't bad - they are good and they deserve the market success they have.
Message received ?
They are not my cup of tea, but I respect them.
There is way much worse out there.
Surprised ?
No one should.
At least not those who pay attention and read careful.
There are a few people who are unable to read anything which isn't to their particular liking without the glasses of their own matrix.
Consequently they will run into problems with people taking a different point of view and position.
That's happen everywhere in life.
You are right - most have figured me out by now.
A few apparently haven't.
If I wouldn't get the opposition of people like you and others you agree with and who agree with you, I know something would be wrong with my point of view.
Reliefed to learn I am still on firm course.
Agree - the iPad 2 is great.
But I don't read your posts on my way to the bathroom. |
Dear Luna, as to your original question.
You might make up your mind first which are your favorite cartridge(s) you may use in the tonearm of your choice.
The TW 10.5 might indeed give you a wide range of suitable cartridges to choose from.
A point which shouldn't be forgotten.
"Always be ready to speak your mind and a base man will avoid you".
William Blake, The Marriage of heaven and Hell, Proverbs of Hell, Plate 8.
One of my heroes from the age of enlightenment.
And one of my favorite proverbs.
Following a rule like this can't just earn you friends only along the road. |
Dear Lbelchev, my comment regarding Luna making up his mind about the cartridges he will use was because - while both tonearms do share similar moving mass - the TW 10.5 and the Grandezza are very different in terms of energy transfer and thus do work together well with different cartridges.
For instance - a nude 1/2" Ortofon SPU will perform VERY different in the two tonearms due to the fairly high amount of energy it transfers into the tonearm while tracking a groove.
Furthermore - if Luna is curious about trying vintage cartridges too or wants to browse on the second hand market for some carts anytime in the future he should indeed consider having the option of azimuth adjustment available.
Yes - he will get as many different recommendations as posts...;-) ... |
Dear Lewm, indeed the ZYX UNIverse (and other ZYX cartridges) do work VERY well in uni-pivot tonearms as in wooden arm wands.
One of the reasons is that the ZYX cartridges do put very little energy into the tonearm during tracking. |
