Some tables have soul and some not


Why is that? Do you think it is always very subjective?
Say, Nottingham Spacedeck does have it and SME does not even if in some respects SME can be called a better or depending on model much better table.
Thoughts, opinions, name callings ?
inna
Black tables have soul. White tables cant jump.
I think it all depends on what the manufacure/designer is trying to extract from the grooves (no punn intended)

I've listened to a lot of tables, some that cost more than my entire system times 3 and I kept going back to Rega for the "soul" I felt from the music, Clearaudio was also a great toe tapper! Keep in mind system synergy, room and location have a HUGE effect on the TT of choice, but as far as a signature sound, most tables have one.

There must be a ton of consumers that really appreciate a very anaylitical sound, and that is great, but I love music and wanted a table that I can through on Cat Stevens, Ray Lamontagne, or Schuburt and enjoy all three with my soul smiling. The Rega P5 nails it everytime (plus TTPSU for the record)

Just my 2 cents.
terms like soul or musicality are so vague that they mean almost nothing to me. all i know is i'd rather listen to music via my SME than other turntables i've owned: LP12 for 21 years, rega p3/24 in a second system for 3 years.
The problem with metaphors is that anyone is free or allowed to have his own reading or interpretation. This way we may surpass the MM thread...

Regards,
A starting point would be outlining the characteristics of the sound hat leads to a feeling of soul.
Yes, the term "Soul" may be vague, but I know it when I hear it. My ARXA has soul in spades. My Well Tempered has soul. I think both my Thorens TD 166 Mk 11 and Space Deck lack a bit of soul in comparison. My Sota had no Soul whatsoever. I remember some audio reviewer asking if a particular big buck major turntable could "boogie" because "many of them cannot". This I think is similar to the Soul issue. I'm sitting here trying, but I just can't actually define "Soul" I think speakers also can have or have not "Soul" Perhaps because they too are "acoustic" instruments rather than electronics. Like a fine violin or cello, this comes from a mechanical/acoustical sound created by the materials of their own composition. Even the varnish on the wood can affect the sound, as well as the Soul.
I think you (Inna) are conflating "soul" with what Harry Pearson first called a "dark" sound. And having owned a Notts Hyperspace, I can agree that on that basis the Notts had soul. I am going to guess that tt's with big heavy platters and belt drive, especially where the belt is rubber or anything with compliance, will be said to have soul. This is NOT a bad thing, IMO. On the other hand, I would say that, comparing my Kenwood L07D to my Technics SP10 Mk3 (two very fine direct-drive tts with rather heavy platters, as dd tables go), the L07D has more soul than does the Mk3. Maybe core-less motors (a la the L07D) also tend toward soulful sounds. And this topic is NOT worth 6000 posts, Nikola.
Turntable design...Soul ... Love ... Pace...Rhythm ...Timing... and more

Basis knowledge for High End Design

Keep spinnin'
Syntax, you made my day. That is hilarious. Perhaps that guy's soul went to heaven.
I think you (Inna) are conflating "soul" with what Harry Pearson first called a "dark" sound. And having owned a Notts Hyperspace, I can agree that on that basis the Notts had soul. I am going to guess that tt's with big heavy platters and belt drive, especially where the belt is rubber or anything with compliance, will be said to have soul. This is NOT a bad thing, IMO. On the other hand, I would say that, comparing my Kenwood L07D to my Technics SP10 Mk3 (two very fine direct-drive tts with rather heavy platters, as dd tables go), the L07D has more soul than does the Mk3. Maybe core-less motors (a la the L07D) also tend toward soulful sounds. And this topic is NOT worth 6000 posts, Nikola.
Check with manufacturer if their line of pruduct had been blessed by pope, rabby or calif to find out precisely if it does.
Marakanetz, I am very disapointed that you totally overlooked the central committee of the communist party (wherevere).

Regards,
Syntax,

I did not know you where into rim drive tables.

I think that guy needed a bit more tracking force.
Hmmm... Nandric,

Perhaps I should do some R&D to find out if there are audio components made in (Wherever) first or what components they're using and if they're being somehow blessed by Central Commitee.

I've also ommited some other means of blessing by buddhist or krishna, but the main point had been made. Whatever...

PS: If the manufacturer is jewish, it's blessed 100% by rabby for each product line it builds. It's a must for jew to bless the whole business and each product line individually. No blessing -- No success.

As an atheist, this soul topic is rather pointless to me but I understand the poetic attraction of it. A turntable or any hardware is just a product, a thing, made by people and its design and mechanism reflect the mind of its maker. But very often, I believe, the designers themselves are clueless. Sometimes, it's just a happy accident. Sometimes not. I think most sonic traits or inherent qualities are quantifiable if we look close enough...

To me, the degree of "soul" or soulfulness in a turntable depends on the motor and the compliance of the interface, be it a belt, an idler wheel, or magnetic force. So the degree of three major components, Torque, Compliance, and Cogging play into the overall sound or tonal character of a turntable. Hypothetically, if we have several turntables using the same material and parts, how a designer dial up or down these three things will determine the majority of the sound in each table. Material, mass, isolation, vibration control, machining tolerance, execution, etc... fill up the rest of the recipe.

I think the motor is the heart of a turntable. Your mileage or soul-meter may vary.

_____
Almost everything about this hobby is wildly subjective. That's why an exit point was so easy to find for me. Just pick the set of colorations and sound that you like, then play your music and smile.

Linn would always talk about "pace" and "musicality." Assuming that a turntable's speed is accurate, the factors that will have an effect on what you hear are mechanical, rather that ephemeral.

A well-damped, heavy turntable can have silent soundstages and killer bass, because of that immense foundation. But I just don't believe that any turntable plays music, assuming that speed and setup are accurate, better than any other. The notion of "soul" is unfathomable to me.
I found that as I tried to increase the damping of my TT's plinth I gained clarity but lost the "soul". Happily, I did find a balanced place where I was able to damp the plinth and retain the soul of the music. From this I would say that overdamping anything can remove the sould from the music.

Have you ever heard an overdamped room. It just doesn't sound natural. I think the same applies to components. You can reduce vibrations and unnecessary jiggly stuff, but if you go too far it starts to sound dry and uninvolving.

Is this distortion or coloration? Yeah, probably, but it is far more enjoyable than an over detailed, dry, unforgiving and joyless sound.
Soul = Good Vibrations!?
A turntable cannot have soul (soul, not A soul); it is a machine. Music has soul. Some turntables reproduce more of the soul of a musical performance than other turntables because they are better machines; they let more of the rhythmic nuance in a performance be heard undistorted. Rhythm is where the soul of music lies.
Rhythm is perhaps a foundation of music but not a "location" of soul of it. And much music actually lacks anything that could be called that.
As for turntables being machines made by humans, well, first of all people are machines too just of a very different type and second exactly because things are made by people they have soul too, or they don't.
Inna, I must say (in the spirit of debate) that was one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read on this forum; and, with all due respect, just plain wrong. I respect your opinion to consider yourself a machine of sorts; but please speak for yourself only.
Rhythm is perhaps a foundation of music but not a "location" of soul of it. And much music actually lacks anything that could be called that.
Really – maybe to you but not to the fans of the music that you are referring to.
As for turntables being machines made by humans, well, first of all people are machines too just of a very different type and second exactly because things are made by people they have soul too, or they don't.
Again really – interesting
The only people I have come across that have no soul were dead at funerals. Not pleasant. Every living person has soul and each of them given music that hits home with them will show you their soul.
Frogman nailed it.
High End also can show low end.
James Brown TT has soul.

Utterly useless thread. Soulless.

_______
Who asked you, Mr. Atheist?

Tim Tebow.

_______

In a recent interview, Frank Kuzma had a Q&A exchange in the following:

Q: "Is there a place for mystics in audio or simply good and great engineering?"

A: "Well, we still do not know why Stradivarius violins sound superb - is that mysticism or just forgotten great engineering."

Maybe all this talk about turntable with "soul" is just good and/or bad engineering that people forgot to talk about.

Ok, I'm done.

_______
Atheism is a religion too, if you know what I mean.
Both BMW and Lexus are good engineering, but the former usually has soul and the latter has not. Mercedes is somewhere in between. Same with Hi-Fi, probably even more complex. Good engineering doesn't hurt, true.
Ebm, you sound near psychotic. Why don't you go spin a few records, you have a good turntable?
Agree with Hiho.
Useless.
And Inna is a meathead.
I think Ebm's post is one of the funniest I've read in a long time.
Based upon the Lexus vs. BMW vs. MB comments I can only conclude that "soul" is a marketing concept.

Do cable risers have soul?
James Brown TT has soul

Yeah, these Black Power Turntables have some magic.
I am waiting for the Muhammed Ali Edition.
Inna your one nasty guy .I have TW ACUSTIC RAVEN AC1 with BLACK NIGHT feet and battery power supply with TW 10.5 arm and TRANSFIGURATION PHONIEX cartridge.What do you have?
Because of Syntax I thought about Germans and then about
Hegel and his method of 'opposites'. For each concept there is the opposite one,then the opposites of the opposites etc. Say: objective-subjective; inside-
outside; on one hand and the other,good- bad etc.,etc,.
Now 'the soul' is of course the opposite of the physical so
we get 'metaphysical' speculations about inanimate physical objects like turntables. To my mind such kind of speculation should be allowed only for the speakers . Ie
those are 'essential' while, according to Aristoteles, only the essences are important.

Regards,
I got: rhythm, music, my gal.
Who could ask for anything more?
"Do cable risers have soul?"
In a metaphorical sense they do. Oh yeah.
Ebm, now you sound normal. Glad I could help. Maybe I am not such a nasty guy arter all.
Syntax
I had direct experience with a black table purchased to see what all the chat was about, believing this chat it would float the music like a butterfly but instead it stung like a bee.

Inna you need cable risers? I retired from Hydro One and can get you special audiophile select cryogenic treated risers with custom soul paint job for 20 % discount. Audiophiles that use them report a living presnts to their music.
Bill, a person who can drag some in exposure is charismatic.
Here's some music to think about:
http://youtu.be/kwoySbXEtGo
Not for me Inna, but how do you like this? :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v5Siv33hL4&feature=related
Yeah, you're right Geoch.

He's a charismatic meathead.
I don't, Geoch. But thank you for posting.
Some time ago I was at a phono stage demo. The reviewer used his own Linn LP12 (ok, he was a Linnie and got some money from them) and when he put the needle into the first groove he started walking with head shaken' and finger snipping'...but the music has not started yet.
My neighbour whispered: "Is he sick?"
I answered: "Yes. Ebola virus. Stay away from him"
High End can be dangerous....
Syntax and Ebm,

You guys just kill me. Too much.
Syntax has the inclination to express him self in a cryptic
way. The aim is to be informative as well as humoristic. I
translate first his sentences in German , then from German
into Dutch and this way I am sometime able to 'grasp' his meaning.

Regards,
Some of Syntax's comment's are like a bran muffin for the brain.

If my memory is correct Linn Ittok was Harry Person's reference for sometime earning back then the magazines pregidous 4 out of 5 star rating while tables like for example the Micro Seiki RX 5000 including other all out designs during that time period were briefly mentioned included with criticism.

Mass loaded designs were not in favour and none of the Micro Seiki's were ever reviewed as far as I can remember.
During the early 1980s sales of the Linn skyrocketed with Harry's praises up until some of the writers of TAS including some owners found glaring fault's with the Linn which some were voiced in letters to the editor.
No social media back then to voice your opinion or read others not like today but sometimes the forest is just full of tree's.
In_shore: "Mass loaded designs were not in favour and none of the Micro Seiki's were ever reviewed as far as I can remember."
The Micro-Seiki RX-1500 was reviewed by Steve Watkinson in the November 1987 issue of Stereophile, page 108-110. It was a negative review and MS never recovered from the market place and lost distribution in the west since then. In fact the mass loaded genre never got attention until Dick Olsher gave a rave review to the Aura turntable from New Zealand. Of course, decades of Linn dominance and hardcore Linnies from the likes of Art Dudley didn't help either. The RX-1500 review was probably the worst review from the magazine by a no name reviewer, whose reference turntable is a Sota Star Sapphire. It was rather biased from the get-go by saying...
"Turntables seem to be a frequently targeted item for Japanese manufacturers attempting to break out of the mid-fi mold and expand into the high end. Both Nakamichi and Denon have offered several supposedly audiophile turntable models in recent years which, despite a number of fancy gimmicks, failed to generate much enthusiasm in the audiophile community."

And the writer concludes with this:
"The RX-1500 is the type of product that distinguishes between the true audiophile and the yuppie technofreak. In a sense, it provides a valuable service: the yuppie can at least enjoy audiophile-quality sound. This is more than the high-tech direct-drive turntable wonders from the large Japanese manufacturers allow."
Wow, what drivel! The manufacturer's retort was also a hoot to read. I can't find an online copy of the review but perhaps when I have time I might transcribe the whole thing for all to read.

If you look around in the high end turntable marketplace today, mass loaded designs influenced by Micro-Seiki is everywhere. What does that prove? All the yuppies turned audiophiles? ;-)

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Goog point! Too bad that so many people fall into the Masterminded ideology......and not just in our times....Micro SeIki and Melco are classic designes of the art and will always have their followers as Garrard 301 or 401 has.....