Black tables have soul. White tables cant jump.
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I think it all depends on what the manufacure/designer is trying to extract from the grooves (no punn intended) I've listened to a lot of tables, some that cost more than my entire system times 3 and I kept going back to Rega for the "soul" I felt from the music, Clearaudio was also a great toe tapper! Keep in mind system synergy, room and location have a HUGE effect on the TT of choice, but as far as a signature sound, most tables have one. There must be a ton of consumers that really appreciate a very anaylitical sound, and that is great, but I love music and wanted a table that I can through on Cat Stevens, Ray Lamontagne, or Schuburt and enjoy all three with my soul smiling. The Rega P5 nails it everytime (plus TTPSU for the record) Just my 2 cents. |
Yes, the term "Soul" may be vague, but I know it when I hear it. My ARXA has soul in spades. My Well Tempered has soul. I think both my Thorens TD 166 Mk 11 and Space Deck lack a bit of soul in comparison. My Sota had no Soul whatsoever. I remember some audio reviewer asking if a particular big buck major turntable could "boogie" because "many of them cannot". This I think is similar to the Soul issue. I'm sitting here trying, but I just can't actually define "Soul" I think speakers also can have or have not "Soul" Perhaps because they too are "acoustic" instruments rather than electronics. Like a fine violin or cello, this comes from a mechanical/acoustical sound created by the materials of their own composition. Even the varnish on the wood can affect the sound, as well as the Soul. |
I think you (Inna) are conflating "soul" with what Harry Pearson first called a "dark" sound. And having owned a Notts Hyperspace, I can agree that on that basis the Notts had soul. I am going to guess that tt's with big heavy platters and belt drive, especially where the belt is rubber or anything with compliance, will be said to have soul. This is NOT a bad thing, IMO. On the other hand, I would say that, comparing my Kenwood L07D to my Technics SP10 Mk3 (two very fine direct-drive tts with rather heavy platters, as dd tables go), the L07D has more soul than does the Mk3. Maybe core-less motors (a la the L07D) also tend toward soulful sounds. And this topic is NOT worth 6000 posts, Nikola. |
Turntable design...Soul ... Love ... Pace...Rhythm ...Timing... and more Basis knowledge for High End Design Keep spinnin' |
I think you (Inna) are conflating "soul" with what Harry Pearson first called a "dark" sound. And having owned a Notts Hyperspace, I can agree that on that basis the Notts had soul. I am going to guess that tt's with big heavy platters and belt drive, especially where the belt is rubber or anything with compliance, will be said to have soul. This is NOT a bad thing, IMO. On the other hand, I would say that, comparing my Kenwood L07D to my Technics SP10 Mk3 (two very fine direct-drive tts with rather heavy platters, as dd tables go), the L07D has more soul than does the Mk3. Maybe core-less motors (a la the L07D) also tend toward soulful sounds. And this topic is NOT worth 6000 posts, Nikola. |
Hmmm... Nandric, Perhaps I should do some R&D to find out if there are audio components made in (Wherever) first or what components they're using and if they're being somehow blessed by Central Commitee. I've also ommited some other means of blessing by buddhist or krishna, but the main point had been made. Whatever... PS: If the manufacturer is jewish, it's blessed 100% by rabby for each product line it builds. It's a must for jew to bless the whole business and each product line individually. No blessing -- No success. |
As an atheist, this soul topic is rather pointless to me but I understand the poetic attraction of it. A turntable or any hardware is just a product, a thing, made by people and its design and mechanism reflect the mind of its maker. But very often, I believe, the designers themselves are clueless. Sometimes, it's just a happy accident. Sometimes not. I think most sonic traits or inherent qualities are quantifiable if we look close enough... To me, the degree of "soul" or soulfulness in a turntable depends on the motor and the compliance of the interface, be it a belt, an idler wheel, or magnetic force. So the degree of three major components, Torque, Compliance, and Cogging play into the overall sound or tonal character of a turntable. Hypothetically, if we have several turntables using the same material and parts, how a designer dial up or down these three things will determine the majority of the sound in each table. Material, mass, isolation, vibration control, machining tolerance, execution, etc... fill up the rest of the recipe. I think the motor is the heart of a turntable. Your mileage or soul-meter may vary. _____ |
Almost everything about this hobby is wildly subjective. That's why an exit point was so easy to find for me. Just pick the set of colorations and sound that you like, then play your music and smile. Linn would always talk about "pace" and "musicality." Assuming that a turntable's speed is accurate, the factors that will have an effect on what you hear are mechanical, rather that ephemeral. A well-damped, heavy turntable can have silent soundstages and killer bass, because of that immense foundation. But I just don't believe that any turntable plays music, assuming that speed and setup are accurate, better than any other. The notion of "soul" is unfathomable to me. |
I found that as I tried to increase the damping of my TT's plinth I gained clarity but lost the "soul". Happily, I did find a balanced place where I was able to damp the plinth and retain the soul of the music. From this I would say that overdamping anything can remove the sould from the music. Have you ever heard an overdamped room. It just doesn't sound natural. I think the same applies to components. You can reduce vibrations and unnecessary jiggly stuff, but if you go too far it starts to sound dry and uninvolving. Is this distortion or coloration? Yeah, probably, but it is far more enjoyable than an over detailed, dry, unforgiving and joyless sound. |
A turntable cannot have soul (soul, not A soul); it is a machine. Music has soul. Some turntables reproduce more of the soul of a musical performance than other turntables because they are better machines; they let more of the rhythmic nuance in a performance be heard undistorted. Rhythm is where the soul of music lies. |
Rhythm is perhaps a foundation of music but not a "location" of soul of it. And much music actually lacks anything that could be called that. As for turntables being machines made by humans, well, first of all people are machines too just of a very different type and second exactly because things are made by people they have soul too, or they don't. |
Rhythm is perhaps a foundation of music but not a "location" of soul of it. And much music actually lacks anything that could be called that.Really – maybe to you but not to the fans of the music that you are referring to. As for turntables being machines made by humans, well, first of all people are machines too just of a very different type and second exactly because things are made by people they have soul too, or they don't.Again really – interesting The only people I have come across that have no soul were dead at funerals. Not pleasant. Every living person has soul and each of them given music that hits home with them will show you their soul. Frogman nailed it. |
In a recent interview, Frank Kuzma had a Q&A exchange in the following: Q: "Is there a place for mystics in audio or simply good and great engineering?" Maybe all this talk about turntable with "soul" is just good and/or bad engineering that people forgot to talk about. Ok, I'm done. _______ |
Because of Syntax I thought about Germans and then about Hegel and his method of 'opposites'. For each concept there is the opposite one,then the opposites of the opposites etc. Say: objective-subjective; inside- outside; on one hand and the other,good- bad etc.,etc,. Now 'the soul' is of course the opposite of the physical so we get 'metaphysical' speculations about inanimate physical objects like turntables. To my mind such kind of speculation should be allowed only for the speakers . Ie those are 'essential' while, according to Aristoteles, only the essences are important. Regards, |
Syntax I had direct experience with a black table purchased to see what all the chat was about, believing this chat it would float the music like a butterfly but instead it stung like a bee. Inna you need cable risers? I retired from Hydro One and can get you special audiophile select cryogenic treated risers with custom soul paint job for 20 % discount. Audiophiles that use them report a living presnts to their music. |
Some time ago I was at a phono stage demo. The reviewer used his own Linn LP12 (ok, he was a Linnie and got some money from them) and when he put the needle into the first groove he started walking with head shaken' and finger snipping'...but the music has not started yet. My neighbour whispered: "Is he sick?" I answered: "Yes. Ebola virus. Stay away from him" High End can be dangerous.... |
Some of Syntax's comment's are like a bran muffin for the brain. If my memory is correct Linn Ittok was Harry Person's reference for sometime earning back then the magazines pregidous 4 out of 5 star rating while tables like for example the Micro Seiki RX 5000 including other all out designs during that time period were briefly mentioned included with criticism. Mass loaded designs were not in favour and none of the Micro Seiki's were ever reviewed as far as I can remember. During the early 1980s sales of the Linn skyrocketed with Harry's praises up until some of the writers of TAS including some owners found glaring fault's with the Linn which some were voiced in letters to the editor. No social media back then to voice your opinion or read others not like today but sometimes the forest is just full of tree's. |
In_shore: "Mass loaded designs were not in favour and none of the Micro Seiki's were ever reviewed as far as I can remember."The Micro-Seiki RX-1500 was reviewed by Steve Watkinson in the November 1987 issue of Stereophile, page 108-110. It was a negative review and MS never recovered from the market place and lost distribution in the west since then. In fact the mass loaded genre never got attention until Dick Olsher gave a rave review to the Aura turntable from New Zealand. Of course, decades of Linn dominance and hardcore Linnies from the likes of Art Dudley didn't help either. The RX-1500 review was probably the worst review from the magazine by a no name reviewer, whose reference turntable is a Sota Star Sapphire. It was rather biased from the get-go by saying... "Turntables seem to be a frequently targeted item for Japanese manufacturers attempting to break out of the mid-fi mold and expand into the high end. Both Nakamichi and Denon have offered several supposedly audiophile turntable models in recent years which, despite a number of fancy gimmicks, failed to generate much enthusiasm in the audiophile community." And the writer concludes with this: "The RX-1500 is the type of product that distinguishes between the true audiophile and the yuppie technofreak. In a sense, it provides a valuable service: the yuppie can at least enjoy audiophile-quality sound. This is more than the high-tech direct-drive turntable wonders from the large Japanese manufacturers allow."Wow, what drivel! The manufacturer's retort was also a hoot to read. I can't find an online copy of the review but perhaps when I have time I might transcribe the whole thing for all to read. If you look around in the high end turntable marketplace today, mass loaded designs influenced by Micro-Seiki is everywhere. What does that prove? All the yuppies turned audiophiles? ;-) _______ |