First off, I never really liked the Vandersteen sound at any dealer that I heard them at. A few years back I bought a used pair of Vandersteen model 5s that were not in great cosmetic shape. Now understand that I build my own equipment, DAC, preamp and amps. With my equipment they were a mind opening experience. The best, well I don't know but some of the best sound reproduction that I have heard. I recently picked up the 5As and the seller had just purchased the model 7s. Again very nice sounding and I could hear potential but $68K whoa. I happened to bring my DAC along to hear in the persons system. He had a Briscati DAC. Inserting my DAC in the system was a minding opening experience. The person told me within 30 seconds I never heard anything like this before. I sat there smiling and realized how good the model 7s were. I have money, but $68K is still a lot of money. I thought to myself, I cannot wait until someone sells a pair used for half the price.
So in the right system, the 7s were better than anything I ever heard to date. But I would have to hear the speakers with my gear.
How nice to have choices, many of us here own a variety of speakers and do a ton of work wringing great sound out of difficult rooms. There is a lot more to Vandersteen than a first order filter, notwithstanding comments above. The Quattro has powered bass with 11 bands of analog EQ and replicates the transfer function of your main amplifier, which provides coherent sub and up matching. the Carbon tweeter is essentially the same driver as model 7, which is on many best value lists, show awards, reviewers, musician homes etc.... just like some of the brands mentioned above. well, just finished rebuilding some Decca ribbons and now on to tweaking the bypass on the 3rd order filter,.... they will augment some electrostatics.... have fun on your search, lots of Quattro s out there your local dealer is a prince of a guy best enjoy the music !!!!!
@proacman I am speaker shopping myself (figured out what I want) and one thing that helped me a lot in communicating with dealers and other A'gon users was posting photos of my room in the virtual systems section of this site.
I have on numerous cases posted a link to the virtual system when dealing with dealers.
The biggest issue with my room is the 123 inch screen that sits between and recessed from the speakers. This gives me very little available space on the sides and since the screen is recessed, the speakers are close to the back wall on either side of the recessed area. Only about 18 inches on either side and although I can move the speakers away from the back wall any farther than 2 feet blocks the screen from viewing distance (room is 18 x 14 x 8). The reviews I have read mentioned how there should be room on the sides because of the side facing woofers. Seems with all the options out there I would be better off looking at front firing speakers. But one day I will take a listen at a dealer (such as Audio Doctor) with the speakers placed near the rear and side walls.
@proacman I do not think the Blades need much rear space. There are a few A’gon users who have a near field setup with Blade 2 in tiny rooms (limited side wall space). They say they love it though I do not think they crack the volume. These are rooms more suited for the KEF LS50. I do not have the guts to try this myself in my 12x11x9 room. If I had a 20x15x9 or larger room then I would get a Blade 2.
Proacman, no not true at all with the Blades needing a lot of space on the side and rear to sound good.
Most issues in terms of side wall placement will be amelorated with bass traps if the room is loading the bass drivers howver we have used them at shows close to the side walls and they still sounded great.
In terms of price that is a differnent story.
A well setup pair of Blades or Blade 2 are very impressive.
Also the sound of the Kef Ref 5 and 3 are very similar and they are front radiating only so if you liked the sound of the Blades you may want to consider the Ref series.
We would also recommend you listen to a pair of Legacy Signatures they sound quite simlar to the CT with a very similar voicing, at half the price with greater bass response down to 22hz and far greater efficiency 93db.
Waiting for the not first order slope guys to proclaim these speakers are not good because they are not first order sloped loudspeakers which is bunk.
We are in your proximity and we have the Legacy, Kef Reference and Blades our doors are always open if you would like to hear some of our alternatives who knows you might just be impressed with the Legacy's or the Kefs.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Kef, and Legacy dealers
I heard the Vandersteen Quatro Wood CT and was very impressed. They are on my next upgrade list. My understanding is that the Blade and Blade 2 need a lot of space on the side and rear to sound their best, neither will my listening room allow. Plus they are obviously much more expensive.
But, one thing I think is missing from these comments (unless I missed it) is how important the room is to judging any speaker. Unfortunately living in Westchester, N.Y., there are no dealers that will allow home audition (Listening Room used to but they are long gone). When I listened to the Vandersteen speakers at Audio Connection I also listened to the Proac 48r. Both are similarly priced. I owned Response 2.5s for many years and loved the Proac midrange. I was extremely disappointed when I heard the 48r and felt the Vandersteen speakers were much better. But they were in different rooms. Might I felt the opposite if the rooms were different? No way to know. But my point is that listening at a dealer is not without its caveats. Reviews and recommendations have to be part of the decision-making process and we as audiophiles cannot assume an in-store audition of competing products will in and of itself tell us which speaker we will like better.
I hope audigon is listening but I actively stopped posting about 6 months ago mainly due to Audiotroy taking over many of the threads that interests me. I would not be surprised if there are others who feel the same. It’s not fun anymore. I personally don’t have anything against them but I would rather participate with members and not read dealers consistently defending themselves. Btw, where is Troy? He seem like a good chap. He doesn’t say anything. Hahaha
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a dealer expressing his/her opinions about products. Regardless of whether he/she sells said product.
I have read many time Audiotroy's posts and not one time did I read anything that led me to believe that they were slighting other products. As a matter of fact, I found their information informative to say the least. The same thing one might hear when you say.... go into particular dealerships.
I particularly like Vandersteen 7s. I've heard them many times at shows and also at Randy's Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica, CA. I have also heard the Blades. I wasn't impressed with the sound from the Blades, but I believe that could have been the appurtenant equipment and/or room at the particular show. They weren't bad at all, just too many people talking, and the music wasn't to my taste either. But, that is what you get at shows. No wait, I'm wrong. There was one show where the Blades were demo'd and the sound was actually impressive. So there.
Anyway, at Optimal Enchantment, I heard the Vandy 7's with Audio Research REF 10 pre-amp, REF 10 phono stage, REF 250 SE amps and a stupidly expensive (extremely top-of-the-line) Basis turntable/arm/cartridge set up where for the very first time in my many decades of Engineering and audio, the system actually disappeared completely. It was wonderful.
As with any high-end piece of equipment, I recommend an in-home demonstration. Most reputable dealers in your particular service territory will allow such in-home demonstrations after you give them your credit card information. For speakers that costs this much, as far as I'm concerned, this is absolutely mandatory.
Anyway, please stop the attacks. Other than the personal attacks, the posts I'm reading are offering opinions based on knowledge and/or experience and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If a dealer decides to sell particular products and not others, that really is something that I would like to know and why.
But, not once, did I seen a bashing of Vandersteen in the posts. I did see that it may not have been their cup of tea, but that is true for many of us. so what?
let it go.
If I could afford Vandersteen 7's, I would grab them. I would have to demo the Blades a few more times, but KEF makes some great gear, so yes, they would be on my short list.
Personally, I believe that speakers are the hardest audio item for purchase. So, many variables.
When/if I decide to change, I'm not looking forward to that process/decision. However, I would definitely want to hear from various dealers as to their opinions about products they carry and products they don't carry.
It is still my responsibility to go around and demo the equipment. But knowledgeable, informed opinions actually help.
A speaker that can handle peaks cleanly at 110 db from listening 12 feet away is the primary decision maker for me. Give me a good set of horns, any day. Now, this is ME. An individual, a specific type of listener. I do not expect, nor would expect, everyone of us to want the same things in a sound system. This is the BS of it all. Rather than combat the fanboy vs fanboy attitude, let us all admit that there are a vast amount of listeners, a vast amount of equipment, and...…..to each his / her own. I have been saying this forever. Music reproduction in our homes should be a fun and engaging pass time. You adults, who I do admire from your posts and readings, need to stop and realize it is adolescent and comedic to continue your bantering. Can't we all be friends ? Enjoy ! MrD.
well we certainly both worked for a living...I was no 13 year old child prodigy....I still have the MC240 and MX110 Z that showed up at our house in 1965....
we sold Wilson...and Quad, and Acoustat, and Kef, and Infinity, and Beveridge, and Vandersteen, and ADs, Gale, KEF, a line of kits w custome filters, etc....we made do with a 8 showroom Brownstone, 3 stories...for a time Pasquale Grado lived upstairs, until we converted his flat into another soundroom...
but, I went on to do other things....like run perhaps the largest advanced technology composite shops and development labs on the planet..think B2, F-22, 787...... easy stuff..
which is why I know that Kevlar is just one kind of carbon fiber....
my AMT comment was plainly aimed at Quad, not Legacy...a brand I think is quite fine. Quad , like the new Thiel has strayed far from the garden...so to speak...I use the ESl-63 and will use them for a midrange reference, one of many...yes we worship in many tents..
now, I think I understand you associate phase with time and phase correct. The out of phase behavior we are talking about w pistonic drivers is due to breakup modes in the driver, which is different than a filter which w steep slopes shifts phase.
So cone breakup in or near the passband is 100% trash and distortion...which is why the German company developed the laser scanner - not to help Just vandersteen but to help anyone seeking the truth about just what the cone is doing....
well, I am off to pattern a Turkey shotgun....no kevlar in the stock....
I've heard the Kef and it's a great speaker. Wonderful really. But if you have the money go with the Vandersteen 7. It's one of those if only I were a lottery winner speakers. Pure magic.
Gee Dense Tomic nice of you to say, by the way read all the Kef white papers you should read the one on the Kef Blade and Kef reference lines.
As per what I was doing in 1978, I was working at an audio store under the table at age 13 by the way, so while you were playing Roadie I was actually selling consumer electronics.
As per Quads, owned the Quad 63, as well as Quad US monitors, with dual Entecs, owned Quads for a total of eight years and setup a pair of modified Crosby Quads was doing that in my 20’s how old were you when you got your first high end rig?
Also in my mid 20s started working at Sound by Singer, who was one of the top audio dealers in the country with 10 sound rooms and almost every major brand of audio gear on display while at College was assistant manger at a college High Fi Store.
The Quads don’t sound anything like live music, they have restricted dyanmics, an unfocused image, and a missing top end and bass, they have fantastic midrange that is about it ever wonder why Quad ELS basically disapeared from the market?
Also loudspeaker design 101 a large surface causes diffraction, and even with Peter Walkers delay lines and creating a ripple you still have frequencies bouncing off the total surface of the radiator, hence the large and unfocused image. but hey how many high end speakers imaged with precision in the mid 80’s.
Bought my pair from KJ Leisursound in 1988 when the pound went to near parirty to the dollar.
Moved from the Quads to the Wilson Watt Puppy which sounded so much more like the sound of a live music, perfect they were not, visceral, dynamic, with a much better sense of image placement.
As per your crack on the Legacy’s AMT, they are German made Heil drivers not sourced from China, the midrange driver is silk and graphite made in Italy for Legacy, the crossovers use all top quality parts, in a very well damped cabinet, should get your facts straight.
Lastly the Treo CT uses the Balsa composite tweeter, with a tri laminate midrange driver, these are not the same materials, a carbon fiber dome will be a harder material with greater speed then a woven carbon fiber driver, woven carbon fiber is Kevlar isn’t it and woven carbon fiber has been superseeded by better materials wittness B&W newer Continum cones which are far stiffer than their earlier cones.
Lets talk midrange colorations, shall we, plastics all have a sound which is intrinsically soft. The same way that metal drivers also tend to ring but produce a sound much closer to the real instrument in terms of clarity and over tones.
Metal drivers and ceramics have been getting better and better, lighter stiffer materials push up breakup modes, and Beryillium is uniquely prized by its ability to be self damped due to its extreme stiffness and light weight.
As per coherency most high end manufactuers try where ever possible to use the exact same material for every driver as much as possible if you look at Rockport, Magico, Vivid, Kef, Paradigm.
The ear is especially sensitive in transitions between the tweeter and the midrange. the fact that according to your previous arugments all drivers have to be perfectly pistonic and the Treo CT’s midrange driver is not.
Lets just say we both have a lot of experience in this arena, you are not going to change each others minds.
And we used to sell Thiels an ancient pair of Theils are not not close, the CS 3.7 was a great speaker but would be outclassed by the much newer driver technology of the Kef Blades.
Having a Vandy dealer has nothing to do with it, we like Vandys up to a point, remember used to sell them at SBS, and know the speakers well, they were truly fantastic in the 90’s today there are speakers which sound amazing to compete with them in sleeker more WAF friendly designs.
We are very happy with our Legacy’s which are somewhat tuned sonically like the Vandys, we are also quite happy with the sound quality of the Paradigm’s and Kefs, heck we love our ATC and Quads so it isn’t that we can’t sell Vandy’s we don’t want to we have more than enough great speakers.
You should hear a set of Quad Z4 carbon fiber midrange and woofers, wed to an amazing ribbon tweeter so special.
I bought the stages becuase while they can sound good on certain material, I really wanted to understand how a flat panel with edge clamping stores and releases energy. I have a pretty good grip on that...there are about 2 octaves where they are magic. I bet most Apogee owners love the product even today.
I bought the Cornwalls initially as garage rockers but liked a few things they did with VERY low power, modified the crap out of them and yet......but I know what horns sound like. they have impact and drive and i understand the colorations......
BTW I was lugging a stacked pair of LaScala around for a band PA when you were doing what in 1978 ?
Yes the big petal metallic MBL driver is a wonder driven by a REAL amplifier like an AMS-100 which makes a Krell look toylike...on certain multitrack material with honked up spatial info or a BIg symphonic peice in a VERY large room they can provide a massive soundscape and do percussion, bells, etc very well.....in spite of the filter...RIP the great engineer whominvented that steep slope... the science of how people is important....you trade away time information for frequency response.....ask the cruciak question...can I have both.....it is very hard work, but the answer is yes.......
lets see, the Bryston do have steep slopes...I really dont care about the choral group hearing image....they are spread out on the stands w performaing shell as a big reflector...I do care about getting them excited to hear near instant feedback....which they enjoy....IF i was really a true Vandersteen zealot as you say, i would replace them wuth the VLR........now that you poked me, maybe I will do that.....with a bit of luck the chorale director will cut the reflector size in half.....( it is just a cheap horn.... )
I suspect you are not a Stax dealer either....when I do lend them these....well, they GASP !!! as they should...
the Thiels, ancient as they are...are very musical....check out Jafant’s fantastic Thiel thread right here, something like 5k posts, not a lot of selling going on...I see music and Thiel lovers....ah, so good....
reread, the white paper the LS 50 is just a slightly different flavor than the esteemed 101 aka LS3/5a...oh with worse bass....
the Quad ESL63...... a 2 way with delay lines to emulate a point source......Peter Walker a real genius, not prone to buying off the shelf AMT drivers and outsourcing to China....RIP good man...
you might do well to study the 63...... I am rebuilding my pair so I have witheld judgements...but I sold a bunch of them in the 80’s....the concentric delay lines do not fix the edge clamming, dustcover and other issues..
I actually dont believe a Vandersteen is perfect either, you flubbed the shot at the 1c that has been replaced by the changed and improved 1ci...
since 1977 learning and improving...
and finally, the TREO tweeter is carbon fiber the midrange is trilaminate carbon fiber..woven ....coherence is not derived from the exact same material because the frequency and breakup modes changes, again.....perhaps reading and study will help you...unless you get hip with the science and the listening, you are just a baskin robbins flavor pusher....
the reality is you have a Vandydealer a few miles away and the heat of competition clouds your thinking....
Yes Mr. M. your Vandy Treo's do compete with Persona 3F, they would not compete with the Persona 9H, the Vandy 5A and the 7 would, if you prefer a more holographic soundstage, deeper bass, and overall much greater clarity the Personas 3F will outperform the Treos.
The word compete simply means that it is in the same league, a $32k set of Blades or Persona 9H can both sound fantastic and can compete with the performance of the Vandy 7 which you prefer will come down to what you like and the matching equipment.
If you prefer a warmer midrange, a more recessed top end, and a more defusive sound stage then the Treo's will be for you.
We prefer a much more transparent speaker and we find a huge advantage in having the tweeter and midrange drivers made out of the same material vs the Aluminium tweeter and composite trilaminate cone of the Treo,s or the Balsa wood CT tweeter and the composite trilaminate cone of the Treo CT.
You would say bright upon hearing the 3F,we would listen to your Treo's and go dull.
It comes down to personal prefererence, system matching and what you find musical.
I find your honesty refereshing "Would I buy a different brand? Of course I would if I felt it outperformed the Vandy's in areas I thought critical. But I don't see that happening anytime soon."
Personally Mr. M. we could name a few speakers some which we sell and some which we don't that you might just like a lot better than your Vandys.
Please enjoy your Vandys they are great speakers for many listners just the same way that Legacy and Personas, Focals, Wilsons, Rockports are great speakers for many others.
Dave and Troy
Mr. M. my computer is right in front of Reference demo Room One it is very easy to type out a retort while listening.
You might just want to hear one of our setups if you are in our neck of the woods to see for yourself just how good some of our products may sound to you, howerver, we doubt you would take us up on that offer.
Audiotroy, You use the word "compete" as in meaning what? I can't read your mind. Does the word compete mean "almost as good", "Better than", or what? If I told you my Vandersteen Treo Ct's compete with the Persona 9H, which would be a fair analogy, what would you tell me? I know exactly what you would tell me, because awhile back you told me my Treo's weren't in the same league as the Persona's. And just because you don't remember, that doesn't mean it's not true.
Besides the Persona's, you only started mentioning those "other" speaker lines because enough people came out on the Persona threads and told you they weren't as great as you claim. I've had a lot of different loudspeaker systems over the years including several sets of Legacies. I have compared the Vandersteen's to many other speakers, and for me, they are MY loudspeaker of choice. Would I buy a different brand? Of course I would if I felt it outperformed the Vandy's in areas I thought critical. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
By the way, you seem to spend a lot of time on the Audiogon forum. Do you find anytime to work at your store????
You only are pointing out how a speaker (that you of course sell) is a better value than what another person asks about. Amazing how you always have a better value.
But, if the Tekton owners point out the same thing, they are in the wrong? I mean, really you point out how TeeJay loves the Coda 8 that you now push. Yet, he replaced his more expensive speakers with Tekton speakers he loves.
How about paying for an ad. Hopefully this wasn’t so harsh as to be deleted.
What is it? I can find reviews online right now by "pros" that literally tell you what speaker that was 4-5x the price of a Tekton that they replaced.
Yes Tomic like you point out Treo ct perfect piston tweeter non pistonic midrange. I guess perfect piston technology for lesser models and having two completely different materials makes for a coherent presentation?
Also the Bryston you use are not time and phase aligned yet in your last statement you find every other speaker that is not time and phase aligned is also trash
So which is it? If you enjoy your Apogee Stage not time and phase aligned with Klipsch Corwalls not time and phase aligned you do like these other types of loudspeakers.
Effusive praise on the MBL loudspeakers they use a 4th order Linkweitz reily crossover.
I guess out of phase trash can sound pretty darn good after all and a set of MBL can therefore also further the illusion of real music as well.
Dave. Of course I think setup is important. You just didn't read between the lines as to what I said. I have experimented A LOT with interconnects, speaker cables, various tweeks, etc, etc,. I could tell you what I have done, but true to your nature, you would have concluded that everything I had done was completely wrong. At least in your eye. Why on earth would I subject myself to your biased scrutiny???
By the way, I like a lot of different loudspeakers, amps, and source components. You also said months ago that the top Paradigm Persona Loudspeaker was beating pretty much any other loudspeaker system out there that you had listened to and that included models at twice the price according to you. Now tell me you're not trying to promote the "Perfect Product" for everyone.
Oh, by the way, do you pay for any personal ads in the audio mags? Just wondering...
Beetlemania, do you honestly think that anyone who is such a fervent Vandy guy or the same with the Tekton guys is going to ever fairly evaluate any thing else?
To these guys it is like a religion, if you notice we don't say any of our speakers are better just different and how they compare and in some cases these products are half the price, which means in the case of the Kef Blades you can get an entire system just for the price of the Vandy 7s and by many reviewers accounts the Blade is in that uber class of high value for dollar reference loudspeakers along with the Persona and Legacy lines, the same can be said with some of the Focals and Rockports and Wilsons and Magicos, that are also in the $30k price range.
To Mr M and by his own pronouncements Vandy is the only speaker unless he is joking that is definatly not the approach that is lets say fully balanced. Vandy may be his best choice but if you notice we don't say that any product we are selling is the best choice only that is a valid choice for these reasons
We stated it simply there is no perfect product for everyone, and not everyone is going to like the same choices you have made or that you enjoy.
Also as stated setup is everything the wrong electronics, cabling, digital can make any speaker sound good or bad if you are not in agreement with that simple fact you are certainly a novice.
Good for you Mr. M, please go and enjoy your loudspeakers
What we have found in 30 years of professional audio sales, as well as being an audiophile for 45 + years, that there is no universally correct product for everybody, therefore we sell multiple brands of loudspeakers, electronics and digital products.
And it is totally about setup we have seen good loudspeakers sound poor, and decent speakers sound great all depending on what you use with them, room acoustics, room size etc.
If you honestly don’t think that setup is everything Mr. M you are more than a novice. Changing a single cable can sometimes make a system come alive, same way with changing a dac or moving to a different set of electronics it is called synergy, and what sometimes works with one set of loudspeakers dosen’t work with another, sometimes changing a loudspeaker requires changing other things until you have the correct sound that you are looking for.
Dave. Being in this hobby for 50+ years, I can assure you I have listened to just about every brand on the planet. That includes the brands you carry. Won't go down your rabbit hole about set-up. Not gonna play that game with you.....My ears are every bit as good as yours.
Roxy it has nothing to do with us vs any other dealer.
We talk facts. We talk about opinions. To say one speaker is better than another is silly.
Which is better a BMW or a Mercedes?
We point out why we believe our products are competitive and a good value and why we carry those companies.
These discussions get nasty when someone makes a silly comment about why only one type of loudspeaker design is correct.
There are many valid loudspeaker designs which include time and phase aligned designs as well as non time and phase aligned designs.
You may prefer a Vandy that makes it better for that listener a guy who prefers a Wilson' a Magico Rockport or a Persona isnt wrong in there preference.
I have to add Doc that your persistence that long ago took a bounding leap crossing the line into obnoxiousness which in no way causes you to be chastened or embarrassed by unending criticism is in a very perverse way impressive.
Yes Tomic we won’t claim to have designed any crossovers, we know what many people like and many people like Vandys and many people do not.
It is interesting for such a Vandy fan who proclaims to have three sets of them, not to always be mentioning your Quads, or Stages or Cornwalls, the only loudspeakers you keep on pushing religiously is Vandy remember your nice comment about any other non perfect piston loudspeaker being imperfect, and chasing our tails? guess that goes for the 1C, 2CE, 3A, the Treo, as they don't have perfectly pistonic drivers now do they?
Don’t need to read the LS 50’s white paper we have them and we have heard them compared to many other good loudspeakers.
Tney are way more transparent then a set of Vandy 1Cs, add a good subwoofer and you are good to go.
actually I was listening to the Thiels this evening, perhaps you missed that tomorrow might be the real Quad ESL-63 and the next the Apogee stage... and the next modified Cornwalls....
I was selling KEF 105.2 and designing crossovers with an FFT when you were doing what in 1980 ?
you should reread the white paper on the LS 50 and look for intersections w Vandersteen philosophy...there are many... where they diverge is sacrificing phase accuracy for frequency response...wiring the tweeter out of phase...
Yes your point about tweeter height completely invalidates the entire company. Do you think that perhaps the decision to make the speaker stands a particular height which may be different from the manual is that many listeners may not like a taller stand based on the looks of the combo?
Sure lets compare facts with facts Kef is a $200-300 million dollar a year company Vandy does probably $10 million a year, lets be generous and say they are $20-30 million dollars a year, do you honestly think that Kef grew into one of the top loudspeaker companies of all times because they don't make a fantastic products?
Sure Vandy is all about the small guy vs the big boys like B&W, Focal, and KEF right, if you remember all of these companies were started by single men in similar circumstances, and all of these companies have been in business a very long time. yet these are the three biggest high end speaker manufacturers in the world and all three make all of their own drivers and have continued to evolve their designs and technologies and in some cases radically.
So please let not mix facts that market share means nothing.
Market share allows you to develop products which cost $4 million dollars to develop like the Kef Blades, I guess that all of the accolades that Kef has received on their loudspeakers also account for nothing.
Please stop your arguements that don't hold water.
The Kef Blades can easily stand up to a pair of Vandy 7's which you prefer is up to you, however, as we we pointed out before you can build a pretty darn nice system of Kef Blades plus amp, preamp, dac and cables for the $30k plus difference in price between the two loudspeakers.
Good night Tomic enjoy your purly pistonic perfect loudspeakers, we will suffer listening to our $30k Blades or Personas or Legacy Aeris too bad we will be suffering so much with these "inferior" products as we continue to chase our tails.
No Tomic we aren't just selling. and we do pay attention. If you notice we don't have your position, we like many different types of loudspeakers nor do we believe that any brand or any technology is intrinsically better than any other.
If you came to our shop and heard our Personas, our Legacys or Kef's we wouldn't tell you one was better than another.
Please tell me which performance sedan is better? A BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac?
All are valid choices all have strengths and weaknesses.
Again back to the studio discussion, yes Focal makes studio monitors as does ATC, and Genlec, please find one studio that uses Vandersteen if the speakers are so acurate you should be able to find studios using them correct?
We do know that a famous record producer uses Legacys and there are a few other studios as well, perfect pistons are perfect aren't they?
Your love of Vandy is commendable and they do make great speakers for some people, you think the reason we like Legacy or Paradigm is because we sell them, no sell them because we like them.
We have stated our position on Vandy many times before, they aren't our cup of tea, and for the money we have choices we feel are better suited for our values.
Vandersteen anti-wonky since 1977 more than 250 K sold
my God, something must be right.....
yes designing a great speaker using first order slopes is very difficult and requires drivers that do not breakup for much larger operating bands. There are of course other brilliant speaker designers. Does KEF make a stand or recommend a speaker height in the LS50 manual ?
IF you were paying attention to reading others posts vs just selling, you would know that I spend a good bit of time in a studio with a pair of ATC... I am quite aware of what they can do. But I also know the whims of fashion in that business..JBL, genelec, Yamaha, etc....run by many of the same people bringing you loads of compression and albums with 10 dB of dynamic..range for the record studio owner prefers his Focal mounted side by side....
Mr M that still doesn't answer our questions to is the system that you had the same and you only swapped the Legacy's for the Vandys?
Also doesn't answer the vintage we heard Legacy for years and we thought their speakers were good but not great, it is only with the recent series of products did we get on board a few years ago and have been thrilled with them. Earlier versions were not as coherent and the older drivers were not in the same league as the current Heil AMT and the new silk and graphite midrange driver.
Lets's just say that I was involved with Legacy and it's designer when they were first building speakers in a two car garage. And followed many years after that.
I wish I could go to Munich, not just to compare the Kef vs Vandy’s, but also to finally listen to a pair of MBL’s. Unfortunately, my gardens need my attention. B
Also Mr, M, how do you know how long we have been selling Legacy? When did you get a set of Legaxys, and what vintage, also what cables and equipment were you using? Was it the same setup you are now using with your Vandys? I am willing to bet you Vandy setup is not the same as your Legacy setup was?
We are not saying that the Legacy's are perfect they are a remarkable buy for $7k for a speaker that has so many attributes: deep bass, high efficiency, beatutiful cabinetry, advanced Heil AMT midrange and tweeter, custom midrange driver, if you like warm and full bodied sound which is what we hear with both the Legacy and the Vandys then both of these speakers would be for you.
If someone prefers more detail and a more upfront presentation then the Paradigm Pesonas will be even better although they sound a bit smaller in size.
As per bass if you use a set of Isoacoustics isolation footers under the Signturatures the bass gets tighter and more articulate,
Tomic how unexpected of you, really chasing our tails?
Don't know about you but look up ATC most of the worlds top recording studios and mastering house use ATC loudspeakrs, which don't have pure pistonic cones or open non reflective midrange drivers now do they?
I guess ATC speakers are not good now are they? By your admission chasing tails is that only Vandy speakers are correct.
Tomic you really need to go and talk with major loudspeaker designers like Lawrence Dickie of Vivid who was also B&W top engineer, about first order slopes and what they do wrong vs what they do right vs harder slopes and what they do right.
I guess Kevin Vockes and Floyd Toole of Revel don't know what they are doing either, nor does Jack Oclee Brown of Kef fame, or Andrew Jones of TAD and Elac doesn't know what he is doing either?
Guess Peter Walker and Gail Sanders of Quad and Martin Logan didn't know jack either.
Tomic all loudspeakers have their strengths and weakness, for a $70k price tag I would take a set of Scanea Line arrays in a heartbeat over your Vandy 7s,
The Scaena lines arrays had the scale and scope of live music we stopped selling them because the company was wonky, but the speakers were amazing.
Lets just agree to disagree, I will go back to listening to my Kef Blades, Legacy Aeris and Paradigm Persona 9H and keep chasing my tail.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Kef, Legacy, Paradigm dealer
on chasing your tail because you like out of phase cone breakup....there is no moving forward there just endless flavor changes......might as well buy a crappy equalizer and really mess stuff up.....
the german company that builds the $40 K scanning machine to identify cone breakup modes and out of phase behavoir did not do this for just Vandersteen, there will be plenty of real designers who care, versus flavor changers......
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