I am enjoying my analog system, but what can I do to improve?

Thanks to everyone for their comments. Right now, there is nothing more I can do about the room size. So, it looks like the consensus is to get better analog components. @stereo_gen also makes a good point. My system current sounds good and could live with it.

Dear friends : I respect all your opinions and for me exist 3 main issues in that system:

first is to have the rigth room/treatment and this should be does by the speaker/room treatment retailer (s ). @chungjh needs some one with the knowledge levels and " tools " to do it. Soundlabs speakers are just great and trhough adequated room treatment and even that small room it can shines.

second that terrible transformer coupled preamp that the best it does is to destroy the cartridge signal. No matters which analog items analog rig he owns today or in the near future that Allnic must goes out.

and third a tonearm rewiring as headshells options with good headshell wires. I seen that almost all of you gave as advise to change the TT/tonearm but no one of you posted why the Technics tonearm ( other than its internal wire ) must be changed no one of you stated the problems with no one stated why a better cartridge can’t be handled by the Technics tonearm.

Obviously that’s to easy to post any kind of room/system advises/changes using the other gentleman money, even some one siad to take out a wall or something like that.

The OP said:

" My system sounds great, but I am wondering how I can take my system to another level. " Yes, that another levl is not specified but he said " sounds great " so what’s coming? For me: fine tunning that room/system.

R.

Dear @chungjh : In other Agon thread a gentleman that posted here posted there:

"" The current Technics SL-1200G is a fine turntable at its price point. It is stronger on rythmic drive and bass coherence than it is on tonal refinement, but an excellent performer nonetheless. ""

The tonearm rewiring fix and improves that " tonal refinement " and the overall tonearm quality level performance.

R.

@ruauliruegas, you say the transformer coupled preamp must go. I assume this applies to all transformer coupled preamp? or just my combination. Are you recommending OTL preamps?

@rauliruegas , the key with the Technics is "for the price." For the price it is a great turntable. My problem with the arm is that it is heavier and has more inertia than it has to have. This is why most if not all of the finest arms today are straight and not "S" shaped. It is not a neutral balance arm and it's vertical bearing is high above the record surface increasing warp wow. It has unnecessary contacts and removable head shells always add mass. For the money it is fine but chungjh's speakers are not "for the money" loudspeakers.

You are absolutely right that room treatment is mandatory for Sound Labs speaker but in a much different way than point source dynamic speakers. The wall directly behind these speakers needs to be deadened to prevent the back wave from overwhelming the front wave. Otherwise, because these speakers are dipole line arrays they are extremely directional and in most cases no other room treatment is required. 

Sound Labs and other full range ESLs are very amp sensitive or rather amps are very Sound Labs sensitive. Because of the ESL's wild impedance curve and reactive character many amps just do not do well on these speakers and many will actually burn out trying to drive them. They either require an amp that does not care about speaker impedance like the Atma-Sphere MA2 or an amp that can drive a 0.5 ohm reactive load at high levels without burning out like the JC 1+. High powered SS class A amps will usually do OK. Other tube amps need not apply at all. Amplifiers really make a huge difference with these speakers. I would consider in this case the speaker, amps and room be looked at as one unit, the most important one in any system but in this case they are inseparable. 

All the other issues you talk about are important and should be addressed but IMHO are secondary. I would also suggest to chungjh to have a good idea where you want to head with this and not to waste money on minor diversions. Do not waste money modifying equipment you do not plan to keep in the end. Save and buy the equipment you want permanently and can afford. Then you can deal with minor issues and other problems that might arise (like my turntable's feedback problems). 

Dear @chungjh  :  Applies to all transformer coupled preamps as the L7000.

Btw, you don't need to make any change with the Pass X350 that's very good design and handled perfectly your 545 speakers, don't worry about amp you are totally safe there.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : " problem with the arm is that it is heavier.. " well that's your problem because the arm is at the lower range of medium mass and about the removable headshell that could be an advantage to mate it with any cartridge but there is no perfect tonearm, all in audio is about trade offs.

R.

My man your system is good.Do yourself a favor ,Enjoy what you already own....Don't go nuts and dont search for something over the rainbow....your there already.Save your money .If anything just get more vinyl you want to hear....Peace .

You have a very nice system.

What are you doing about vibration and RF interference??

Putting McCormack Tip Toes under my amp did an amazing job in bringing the sound to another level. Improved clarity, wider/deeper sound stage etc etc, it was almost shocking what a difference these little guys make.

I have put them under my CDP's and DAC as well.

I have lots of different vibration dampening material under everything else. most of this stuff is NOT from Audiophile sources. Most material are standard vibration material/solutions for commercial applications.

I do have a set of ISONODE units combined with a heavy butcher block cutting board under my TT which was another inexpensive improvement.

My rack sits on 4 big "Vibe-Killers" pucks meant for large Washer/ dryers for example.

Before you spend money on gear try tweaks like that.

Fuses are another thing you may try and AC power conditioners for source gear.

Replacing AC outlets with commercial/Hospital grade units help. I spent a bit more and bought a Cabledyne  heavy duty /cryo/deluxe outlet for about $50 ???It was years ago, I don't remember the exact price. PS Audio has similar units for about 100 bucks. It has helped lower the noise floor a good bit.

There are plenty of very high quality SurgeX power conditioners on the used market that can be had at very reasonable prices. I'm in Television Broadcasting and our control rooms and rack rooms all run through their products.

Stay away from Furman and the like.

These are all relatively inexpensive additions that will yield noticeable results .

Enjoy! 

There are some easy things you can do:

Everything is prone to vibration. TT must have an isolation platform. Definitely not a butcher block or solid structure. (If you need help with the best isolation device for your TT, you can pm me)

Make sure your TT is setup correctly! TAKE YOUR TIME. Most TT owners will not spend tedious/setup time. I think it’s Fun!! 😊

Including; Overhang, stylus rake angle. Azimuth setup.

I would suggest a Wally tool and a Cartridge Enabler from OriginLive.
Hopefully that will help.

Happy spinning!!

I agree with stereo_gen but before you stop make one more upgrade and you will be perfectly satisfied replace that preamp with the Pass xp22 or if can go a little further $$$ the Pass xp30 the syner-g of Pass gear is truely outstanding trust me there is where you would stop. Now if you want to go futher which I seriously doubt upgrade Arm and Cart. Origin Live encounter MK 4 tone arm and SoundSmith Carmen MK2 cart. I owned the Pass X350 Power Amp and the Pass XP30 preamp,when I added the Xp30 took my gear up to another 2 levels the 3.6 Maggies have never sounded so good and please don`t let the naysayers sway you in regards to Pass Labs distortion measurements your not listening to measurements listen blind listen with your ears trust me OP.

I would not concern myself about room size, there are great musical encounters to be had, without making the room a reason the experience can't be thoroughly enjoyed.

Near Field Listening is a set up for the Speakers and Listening position that are used by members of the music production industry and any other methods for speaker positioning are overlooked.

Your room dimension form my understanding seems to lend itself quite satisfactory to allow for this method to be intentionally set up.

I have tried a version of near field in my room with ESL Speakers, where the wall behind the Speakers and the listening position are almost equalized in the dimension and the distance between the Speakers and the Listening position are very similar.  A slight change to the toe in of the Speaker is the only change to the stereo configuration for the speaker, but don't think a direct line to the ear is best, find the toe that really satisfies your own preferences.  

There is not any other method I have created to make a being there experience be perceived and believable, and this is a method used for a selection of live albums that really come into their own when replayed with this as the listening set up method.

The real appeal with this as a choice made for a Speaker set up, is that it genuinely does not cost any money, just a little adjustment to the already owned equipment.

If you want to create a space where the speakers are coupled to the room and the room seemingly has no boundaries, then a understanding of room acoustic treatments will be good to get to grips with, or use a modern technology to carry out analysis and suggested treatments. 

@rauliruegas , I prefer arms that are lighter. With lower compliance cartridges you can always add mass. It is much harder to take it away. I never use very low compliance cartridges because they will increase record and stylus wear and generally do not track as well. I go with medium to high compliance cartridges. There are very few ultra high compliance cartridge's available now. Not sure why. Maybe you know. Perhaps it is because nobody makes the ultra light arms they require any more. 

Remember, I own Sound Labs speakers and have been dealing with ESLs since 1978. The X350 will work, probably better than most but the high impedance at low frequencies will stifle it and choke the visceral component important to good bass. With ESLs you have to consider the amp as a component of the speaker. Generally amps with very large power supplies and ultra low impedance output sections will work better. They also have to have very good cooling because of the very low impedance at high frequencies demands high current which produces a lot of heat. The X350 is fine in that regard. Upgrading everything else is important but only applies to records. Improving the amplifier match will make a significant improvement with any source. 

@sheridanmartinj , next trade in the X350 for an XA200.8 and you will make an even larger jump in performance. Do not let the power specs fool you. The XA200.8 is a more powerful amp.

@shinemaster , you forgot Zenith! 

@limomangus , it seems you are a music lover but not an audiophile. Perhaps you are on the wrong site. The vast majority of us can not throw unlimited money at our systems. The trick is making the best system we can afford. Discussion is useful in that regard as well as a lot of research.

Chung, the Allnic L7000 is an outlier. Very few linestages are transformer coupled. 99% are capacitor coupled, some SS designs are direct coupled, and the Atmasphere MP1 and MP3 are unique in usuing a circlotron output stage. Now I leave to you the question of whether Raul’s opinion holds water or not, because I’ve never even heard a transformer coupled linestage, albeit the Allnic has a good reputation.

Also, if you take Mijostyn’s bald pronouncements on tonearms and their design as only his opinions, you’ll be best off.

Chungjh: we have similar room and in my experience near field is the best option .if you wanna try mix tube pre in your system with Pass try Audio Research ref.

Dear @mijostyn  : With a removable headshell tonearm design you always can take away mass, AT/Denon have headshell as ligther as 4gr.-5gr. .

In the other side the 545 review that Soundlabs posted in its site came by Enjoying Music and guess what, the speakers were reviewed mated precisely to the Pass 350 !

@lewm  the issue on the coupled transformer is not rocket science but just common sense that for what you posted I can think is different from mine. That's all. Pun is not intented. Period with.

R.

Dear @honeyooi and friends :  ""  in my experience near field is the best option. ""

Absolutely true and not only because is almost the only alternative chu has but because is the way we can really appreciate MUSIC as if we were seated in a live MUSIC event at nearfield.

IMHO, if we want to learn how good is our room/system we have to have a several first hand experiences through live MUSIC seated at nearfield and only if we have that experiences we can in true evaluate not only our system but any audio system listening to it at nearfield position. 

For many years now it's that what  I did and do in my system tests whole proccess.

No, normally I don't seat in my place at near field position because I have not a dedicated system room.  has my room/system differences seated at near field than into my normal position?  of course there are differences and my quest is to tweak my system trying that both positions be as nearest is possible, a real challenge.

R.

Go to live concerts

How do you like the allnic preamp?  Have you considered changing the preamp for another one?

I’ve been where you are. I could never settle into my “ultimate” system, no matter how good it was. So now I have an alternate pair of speakers and a few electronics that I swap every once in a while. It’s always a nice change and lets me keep perspective. It always sounds different, and usually better. After a while I put the originals back, and they always sound different, and usually better.

maybe this isn’t for you, but I enjoy it. Whatever you decide, I hope you enjoy it!

A small pair of fast and musical subs will upgrade your sound — not only by an increase in bass extension. The signal to your mains will be decluttered, especially with tubes. They will be perceived as quicker and more precise.

I don't need any more bass; I got plenty with Bass Focus. I think I figured out part of the problem. My Sound Lab speakers are too dynamic for my tiny room. I did all the room treatments I can do, so I can't go there. I think I actually need a lesser quality ESL speakers, with reduced dynamics. I have the opposite problem than most people. I will start a new thread on ESL.

Thanks everyone, I learned a lot.

I beg to differ with your conclusion and your plan. There’s virtually no such thing as “too dynamic “ in speakers, and ironically one criticism of ESLs by those who dislike them is that they lack dynamics.

what you might consider is a smaller pair of full range Sound Labs or a refurbished and upgraded pair of Quad 57s. Be prepared in that case for reduced bass extension.

But reduced bass extension might not be noticeable in your small room. You started this thread by asking for more “realism”. The road to realism does not run through reducing dynamics. The essence of live music vs any home audio system is the incredible dynamics of the live experience.

@lewm, what is happening is that loud passages sound too loud, so I turn the volume down. When I do that, quieter passages are too recessed.

I don’t have the experience and knowledge of those who have been advising you, but I know ‘too much gain’ when I hear you describe it. I’m in the camp of, ‘the speakers aren’t the problem’ — the amplification is. From what limited experience I do have, I can tell you that getting a cartridge level signal up to the point that a power amp can use it is a non-trivial process. I’m sitting in a 10’ x 10’ room myself, so I know what you’re dealing with. It is a near field listening situation. The dipole speaker needs a good distance behind it; but I agree with the fellow who wrote that is what a ‘live’ experience is all about. I would listen to the recommendations of those with experience in the electronics (I.e., the fellow who recommended the Pass Labs solution, or similar), that is, several comments have focused on a ‘mismatch’ between your turntable and your amp. You have budgeted 7k, surely you can improve that end of things before you ditch those wonderful speakers. 
 

Just my thoughts, for what it’s worth. 
 

By-the-way, I’m enjoying vintage Warfedale W70E speakers in my 10 x 10 space (15” woofer + 5-1/2” midrange + 1” Mylar tweeter fed by a Rogue Audio tube amp, controlled by a McIntosh C100 preamp). I have discovered that the preamp’s MM phono stage out-performs my ELAC Alchemy PPA-2 phono stage. From which I conclude that ‘synergy’ is something that manufacturers as well as users seek. 
 

Bottom line, I think you find yourself at a point that many of us audiophiles can identify with. It’s time for a rethink. Do you start at the source, or the speakers? Judging from the comments so far, I would start from the source. I agree wholeheartedly with the fellow who counseled trying a new turntable (if it comes to that) vs. replacing the arm, cartridge, etc. But getting from the cartridge to the amp sounds to me, again, judging from the comments so far, is where you should focus your energy (and money) first. From all reports, you have some awesome speakers and an amp capable of driving them. 
 

The other course of action counseled switching to a single-ended triode tube amp, but then it may well not drive those speakers, or may not be appropriate for the music you prefer to listen to, although I do believe that setup may well be appropriate for your room. It is something to consider as an alternative. 
 

I hope my thoughts help your deliberative process.  

I apparently do not understand the term 'dynamics' where it pertains to speakers if Quad ESL's lack dynamics. To me, the term dynamics means whether the music is played from ppp pianissimo to a triple forte. If I were to listen to Andras Schiff play a Beethoven Sonata and if I had the piano score to follow along, the dynamics through my Quad 2905's would be right on. So I would vote for the Quad 57's given their richness and life like sound but yes, they do lack where it pertains to the lower frequencies. And, I wouldn't advocate timing up a sub woofer with the 57's unless it was modified by somebody who really knows how to make it sound cohesive. This would typically mean incorporateng lower frequency mylar panels.

@rauliruegas , The combination of the head shell and the jack assembly will never be as light with less inertia as a fixed head. If there were no penalty for removable head shells then every one would have them. The best compromise I think is the Kuzma version. It still requires a heavy steel grub screw to lock the head shell in. SME moved away from removable head shells decades ago. Their best arms continue to have fixed shells and I know you like the SME V series as I do. It is a pity you can't get them any more without buying one of their tables. Hope they reverse that decision. 

@rauliruegas, that poster obviously has not heard them with the right amplifier.

@chungjh , I think your ears then are not used to higher volumes. Start at lower volumes and slowly add 5 dB every few minutes and you will get used to the volume. Sound Labs will make great bas down to 30 Hz or so before cancelation wipes the out. Your not adding subs for bass (unless you really want everything below 30 Hz). You are adding then to relieve the Sound Labs from having to make bass. The result is much less distortion. 

@mijostyn , talking to Roger West, the owner of Sound Labs, having subwoofer introduces discontinuity and also loss of clarity in bass.

You probably did not talk to Dr. West, as he is very hard of hearing if not actually deaf, and he does not talk on the phone to anyone. You may have exchanged emails with him. I have done so myself, and he is a very nice man and very tolerant of his crazy customers’ questions. As to your description of your issue, I don’t know what to tell you except that all of this stems from the small listening space. Also, I have found that the dynamic contrasts on an LP vary from one record to another. Some are much more dynamic than others. For example Reference recordings are always so dynamic that even in a large room I too have trouble settling on a position of the attenuator that gives me tolerable crescendos and audible diminuendos. It’s just something that comes with the territory of being an audiophile . Are you saying that this issue of dynamics occurs with every LP you play? If so, I would be surprised. I don’t think this is because you have too much amplifier power or that your speakers are too good. The speakers are just responding to the signal that is put into them. They don’t care how big or small the amplifier is. As to using a single ended tube amplifier with the speakers, that is very much not a good idea at all. I know of no such amplifier that can drive the sound labs satisfactorily , for one reason because they have a dip in impedance at mid frequencies which no SET amplifier could deal with very well. As I think you know, I have measured impedance versus frequency curves for my own 845 PX speakers, which supports what I am claiming. Your 545s will have an updated crossover and treble transformer compared to mine which partially ameliorates the problem (for any tube amp) but probably not completely. Not a problem for a Pass amplifier.

Lew, I find the dynamic range too high only on certain recordings. May be that is the way it should be for those recordings. BTW, I moved my seat as far as I can and it sounds much better. Much more natural and less “in your face.”

Dear @chungjh  : I already talked about why we need to listen our room/system seated at near field position. Please re-read my post.

In any room/system the seat position of the owner is critical for several reasons that includes each one of us hearing lossed, SPLs each one of us prefers and so on.

Good that you improve changing your seat position and then you need to follow about from where you are testings with small/tiny seat position changes looking to find out the " rigt " one position and remember that behind that seat position should be romm/treatment too.

In the other side, try that your audio retailer browse to you at your place a Pass preamp or something similar to the Pass one.

No, it's a very bad move to change the 545 speakers for other speakers when the trouble is not there but is up to you.

Btw, o you already tested 3-4 different hedashells with your cartridge and tested with different headshell wires than the stock one?. This was my advise to you in your tread in 2021. Again, is up to you because I really don't care if you did it or not because at the end is you who must live with that audio system.

R.

@rauliruegas I did try another head shell, Audiosilente. Did not sound all that different. I think you are right about about not changing speakers.

@chungjh : You have to try not one headshell but at least 3-4 or more with different build materials, different weigth and even different building shape and obviously with 3-4 different headshell wires. 

Tonearm removable headshell designs exist because that removable headshell gives us a great opportunity to mate in better way the cartridge to the tonearm and to permit that that cartridge can shows at its best.

R.

Btw, " I find the dynamic range too high only on certain recordings. ".

Well that " high dynamics..." could be just higher distortions developed by the analog rig. I'm not saying is distortion.

Are you using Löfgren cartridge/tonearm alignment ? if not then use it. 

If in reality is higher distortion maybe a different TT mat and clamp could help to improve cartridge tracking as the overall cartridge set up: VTA/SRA/AZ/VTF/overhang/offset angle/cleaned stylus-LPs. Accurated set up can helps.

R.

R.

Removable headshells have compromises, not to mention their own set of problems. Not sure if it is worth it.

Dear @cleeds ​@mr_m : " Opinion stated as fact, and it’s a very debatable opinion at that. " "" Removable headshells have compromises, not to mention their own set of problems. Not sure if it is worth it. ""

Gentlemans, the owner already has the removable headshell tonearm design and this is what I’m talking about I’m not comparing against any other tonearm kind of design. I’m trying to help the OP to achieve the best of what he own and from here my post is a FACT like it or not. Dont try that I learn or that try to tell I’m wrong with your kind of posts trying to dyscover " black thread " and think that in any audio item as in the real day by day all kind of choices always have trade-offs. Instead of all your " meaning or way of think " try to help the OP with what he already owns and don't try to " hit " me. It does not helps to any one.

Btw, @chungjh I can’t remember if I mentioned but any TT ask for a good isolator plattform and yours is no exception. Other issue that you need to think a little about is the critical and important kind of task that IC cables has in the quality level performance and at least at two places in your system: tonearm to phono stage and phono stage to preamp ( I insist that that preamp should and must goes, is a BS of item. ). There are several alternatives for IC cables and you need to think too if those IC can stays the short as you can: say 0.5m to 0.75 m. and two IC good choices could be Audio Note ( UK. ) and Silver by Analysis Plus.

R.

Raul. I am using a very high quality ICs from Audio Sensibility OCC copper RCA.

Dear @chungjh  :  I neved heard those cables in my or other people audio system but I can see and read in its site that they carry the Zavfino cooper headshell wires. I recommended to you to use the silver by Zavfino headshell wires and the silver tonearm internal wires that after read that site I think that even Zavfino are better cables but with cables is hard to use the word " better or best ".

Cables/wires is an audio item where we have to make several tests in our system with different cables. It does not exist something as an " universal " cables that goes with any system. All cables can work in any system but a<ll owns puts its own signature and develops| different distortion levels duw that the electronics are and have electrical charactreidtics as impedance, capacitances and the like and the cables an electronics " react " to those electrical characteristics. Cables issue is " complex ".

I tested sevarl cables and in all cases I preffer silver over cooper and a safe advise for me are the Silver by AN and AP. Each one of us ahve our prefferences because at the end the " best " one is what we are hearing through today.

You need to test a wider variety of cables even inside the same manufacturer as could be its silver models.

R.

+1 cakyol.  And why do people start threads with “I love my system, I can’t imagine anything better, what change should I make”?

@mahler123 

Because we are afflicted with a disease called "there must be a holy grail that I am missing out on."

Sealed box speakers work well for me in a small room. I have heavily modified Yamaha NS-1000m. Now semi active, with replacement Scanspeak 12" bass drivers. Incredible bass depth, detail and control in what is a poor room. Not boomy at all, even at high levels. The Yam Beryllium domes are legendary and do the mids and top end justice. The stock Yams need careful amp matching, or they can sound top end forward.

I've had a few SL-1200's, its ok, but not a brilliant deck, lightweight platter and the bearing is only adequate. I've done many, many mods over the years, including Hot Rodded Rega arms and a Transfi Linear tracker. To me this is the weakest link and rather than try and upgrade it, I think a different TT/arm is where you should start. Possibly looking at speakers, better able to work in your room, as a second stage.

If you want realism, on anything other than small group acoustic. You need depth and dynamics. In a small room this is difficult, I've found sealed box is the only way to achieve this and retain any kind of control or quality to the sound.

The speakers and how they interact with your room is a critical factor. A "good" speaker may not be good in your environment. You have some nice bits of kit, I feel the room has to be seen as an issue and dealt with appropriately. Fundamentally the speakers, or rather type of speakers, will have more effect than any room treatments you apply. This is presuming there is some form of floor covering and furniture in there. My choice for your environment, best to worst would be:

Sealed Box

Panel

Ported

Open Baffle (due to space requirements).

@qwin 

I used to have Dynaudio C1 monitor. I think Sound Lab is much better, maybe because of 45 degree dispersion angle and the clarity of ESL. Since you have experience with 1200G's, what turntable/tonearm gave you a big jump in sound?

Raul, Just to be clear, I have never heard any transformer coupled line stage. That is why I take no position up or down on the Allnic. For all I know, you are correct in your evaluation. I assume you have heard it.

Dear @chungjh  : These items could help you:

https://www.basisaudio.com/basis-reflex-clamp/

https://www.zavfino1877.com/copy-of-leather-mat

R.