Half-Speed Masters - are they worth double dipping?

Are those made from digital files? If so, you might just as well buy the CD's.

I don't buy them, I just want to add a related comment:

180 gram: many I bought had warps, replacements, better still not flat like most 'stnd' thickness (new and old) I won't buy the heavy vinyl any more.

45 rpm. fun to try, can definitely be better, yet I now stick with 33 rpm, the words, ideas, musical content can be lost when concentrating on 'better' frequencies

jasonbourne71

Are those made from digital files? If so, you might just as well buy the CD's.

If you check the Dynamic Range DB, you'll find that the LP version of an album often has a much wider dynamic range. And of course the HF on an LP can extend way beyond that of CD. Those are two reasons some people still by CDs.

@elliottbnewcombjr

I try to stick with 45’s pressings as they are generally sound better than 33’s. Having said that, I found some phenomenal sounding records on 33’s. Anything with wraps, noisy pressing went back to retailers either for refund or replacement.

The idea behind this thread is to get some sort of consensus of what others have experienced with half-speed masters.

@cleeds

Agreed on records having much wider dynamic range. However in a right setup, streaming, CD’s and Vinyl are equally enjoyable. For me, the main reason to buy CD’s or records is to enjoy the very best recordings on these formats.

Wow, my coffee hadn't kicked in when I wrote this:

... the LP version of an album often has a much wider dynamic range. And of course the HF on an LP can extend way beyond that of CD. Those are two reasons some people still by CDs.

What I meant was that's why some people still buy LPs.

Half speed mastering is somewhat controversial. While it can provide some benefit in higher frequencies, some mastering engineers and audiophile producers find it does so at the cost of lower frequencies. The "best" engineers (Bernie Grundman for one) now opt for regular speed mastering.

I am not impressed at all with 1/2 speed mastering. Like 180 gm records some of it is still garbage pressing. I really enjoy 45 RPM records, they are definitely better as long as you do not mind getting up every two or three songs to flip sides. I have the recently released Joe Walsh the Smoker You Are Analog Productions 45 and it is killer. I have not had a bad 45 rpm pressing yet. 

I have some half-speed mastered vinyl from the 70’s. It was truly amazing. But, that was then… don’t think I have any recent.

Ditto @ghdprentice. Mostly Japanese from the 70s. Pressing was good and they still sound wow to me on the rare occasions when played. 

I need to recheck my half speed LPs, like CBS mastersound Pink floyd: Wish you were here and Joe Jackson Night and day (mofi). My comments are in the "yes, but..." direction. A mixed bunch. On the other hand, I have generally been very satisfied with 45 rpm LPs.

To your original question

in earlier days half speed mastering did have

some loss in the bass frequencies but now that can be 

manipulated by cutting from a digital file and modern mastering technology

i have the Police Greatest Hits your speaking of and it is very balanced and dynamic . It would be a great choice if your looking for an all in one type record

Good luck Willy-T

Save your money. Buy a nicely restored open RTR. Record your original vinyl. Your recording will sound better than the original album, because of a greater dynamic range with tape.

wfowenmd

Record your original vinyl. Your recording will sound better than the original album, because of a greater dynamic range with tape.

The dynamic range of the tape recording can't possibly be greater than the LP from which the recording was made.

It is if you are near a radar tower while doing these R2R recordings. I love the R2R crowd. Yep the sound is fire. But every single other aspect is nerds. Unless you are in the music biz, these things are giant hassles. So many moving parts. Never again. But to all the R2R heads—keep fighting the good fight. I’m moving on to hires streaming and still loving my vinyl. I don’t love most modern 1/2 speed redos. Not worse, just not better for another $50. That said, always open to hear one that someone else thinks really shines, so I’ll monitor the thread like the music ones. I agree with the 45s rhetoric as well. Punchy. But not a ton pressed in 45 anymore. I tend to trust the original engineers so if they are involved I’ll take a look. Cool topic! 

@cleeds I believe you posted a similar comment in a previous thread about vinyl having a wider dynamic range. I've checked the DR Database and I cannot substantiate that claim. Can you provide a few examples of viny releases of the same title having wider dynamic range than the CD?

My research indicates that at best there is not a good correlation between dynamic range and format. Generally, however, it looks to me like a later remastering typically has a wider dynamic range on the CD than the vinyl.

First, and foremost - EVERYTHING matters.

By reducing the rotational speed of the disc by 2x, you double the amount of time that the cutterhead has to remove the material.  Consequently, there is an inherent increase in cutting accuracy.  When a stylus traces the same groove, it is more often exactly where it should be to reproduce the given frequency/sound - again, more accurate. 

This principle applies to the entire recorded spectrum - highs, mids, and lows.  In the attached article (below), an Abbey Road recording engineer states that cutting at half-speed is 'mind-numbingly dull ', but the process results in a much better sounding LP. (> @bdp24 - perhaps Bernie Grundman has concluded the boredom is not worth the time it takes for the improvement in SQ ;-).

That being said, if a crappy recording (say, compressed, dull microphone, cheap wires) is re-cut at half-speed, you may be disappointed in the result.  Remember, EVERYTHING matters. I have both fantastic -sounding and crappy-sounding half-speed LPs.

Yes, there are many other techniques to improve LP SQ, including direct-to-disc, 45 rpm, better quality vinyl, etc. and each can be independently employed.  In theory, you could have a half-speed mastered LP, pressed on uber-vinyl, that plays at 45-rpm.  

Regarding the digital vs. analogue issue, I find the transducer plays a prominent role in the SQ. 

For example: I have the same recording in both formats - simultaneously recorded on Analogue tape and Digital tape. I find a very good TT cartridge (my Hanna ML) can transform the soundwave-medium (mechanical to electronic) better than an average CD player (my OPPO, digital to electronic).  Consequently, the LP sounds better than the CD every time I compare the two. (of course, I am also hearing differences in tape-heads, etc.)

As an aside, my main system has a pretty good CD player as well (Ayre), and the SQ is closer to that of the LP.

Now the aforementioned link (begin reading at "What exactly is half-speed mastering?" 

All You Need To Know about Half Speed Mastering | uDiscover (udiscovermusic.com)

Best,

I've added a few of these over the years; I found them in the used bin at Amoeba or the local record store. The 1/2 speed versions were a duplicate to standard pressings I already had.  After a good inspection and cleaning the results are mostly mixed. Steely Dan Aja was worth the $45 used; very clean and vibrant compared to standard recording.  Doobie Bros Captain and Me also very clean, but no real sonic difference from the standard issue. Seals and Crofts Hummingbird just a slight improvement from the standard; mostly with the vocal harmonies.

Contrast 1/2 speed versions to BetterRecords.com premium selections of standard pressings. The two I bought from BR; Steely Dan Katy Lied and CSNY 4 Way Street, were very clean and sounded very detailed compared compared to record store versions I had. BR is very pricey, but offers the ability to send it back if you're not pleased.

As for 45rpm LPs; I have a few that I unknowingly bought (nothing on the cover said 45!)  these too have a nice detailed sound, but I don't have a standard version to compare them to.

Thank you for the feedback. I guess, it would come down to each recording so I will order the Police - Greatest Hits (thanks @willy-t ). 

As far as R2R, I don’t see much sense in copying Vinyl on to R2R. Both R2R and TT offer very different and unique tactile playback experience.

Whether "half-speed" or "45 rpm", the answer is the same. "It depends." I have some "45s" that sound like you are in the recording studio with the musicians. I have others that are inferior to or at least no better than their "33" counterpart. Ditto "half-speed." I will say the best "45's" are superior to the best "half-speeds", at least in my experience. But you have to listen to each in order to know what is worth buying. Much of this is gimmickry and marketing, as you find with the current trend of "180-gram" vinyl. A crappy recording cheaply stamped on a thicker piece of plastic just a thicker piece of crap. Until you listen, you don't know if you are getting the wonderful quality of vinyl or a cheap copy of somebody's CD. 

The half-speed-mastered LPs I have from the '80s (MFSL and CBS Mastersound) do sound better than the conventional LPs.  Of course, the MFSL were also pressed with virgin JVC vinyl and made from the original master tapes, so that also helped.  If anything, I thought the bass was fuller on the MFSL than on the conventional LPs, so I'm surprised at the comments that bass is negatively affected.  I wonder if this is just a relative perception because higher frequencies are enhanced, which may result in weaker-sounding bass.

+1 @8th-note 

i don’t know where the ridiculous notion started that vinyl has a greater dynamic range than digital.  Numerous studies show otherwise.  And how in the world would vinyl extend the dynamic range of a digital file when it is embedded in a slab of petroleum?

mahler123

i don’t know where the ridiculous notion started that vinyl has a greater dynamic range than digital. Numerous studies show otherwise.

Actually, the data show that - in practice - an LP often has wider DR than its comparable CD counterpart. See the Dynamic Range Database and examples in my previous post. Better yet, make your own measurements.

In absolute terms, the Compact Disc can have a much wider DR than even the best LP. There’s no debating that.

@mahler123 

Perhaps the answer lies in the mastering process for the intended audience.

For example, 'Redbook' CDs reportedly have a dynamic range of 96dB.  While I own hundreds of them, only a few of them come close to the dynamic range of a decent LP.  Why... compression.  Like cassette tapes, CDs were strongly marketed for use in cars, where significant compression is required.

Of course, other digital formats may lessen this constraint.

These things are always going to come down to individual releases, individual tastes and individual systems and on a macro level, it is hard to come to a consensus on the matter for those reasons. Still, in my experience there’s been no single half-speed master that I’ve ever heard or owned that I didn’t find was bested, often handily, by a well-regarded analog pressing from pre-1985. Some I have found sound really amazing until or unless you put them up against a vintage pressing. Then not so much.

With two exceptions, I’ve sold all the half-speed master version and kept the OG pressing. Not because these two--both 80s CBS Half Speed Master series releases of Elvis Costello’s Imperial Bedroom and Barabra Striesand’s Guilty--were better than original pressings, but because I can demonstrate to someone "Sounds incredible, right? Well this one, the original, sounds way better."

Buy a few, see what you think. I decided it wasn’t for me. I especially find the Abbey Road HSM jobs to be not good at all. They just sound like digitally-sourced vinyl to my ears. No thank you.

@inagroove 

I listen primarily to classical.  There may be compression used on some recordings but I haven’t encountered it.

  CDs will always beat LPs for dynamic range because they eliminate the noise floor.  This isn’t just opinion, it’s been validated constantly.

  Dynamic Range is only one variable in audio appreciation and it is perfectly valid to appreciate listening to vinyl for other reasons but if compression isn’t used there simply is no comparison re digital vs. analog for that parameter

mahler123

CDs will always beat LPs for dynamic range because they eliminate the noise floor.

CDs have a noise floor too, and most are compressed. Some are compressed more than an LP counterpart and I offered two documented examples of that earlier in this thread.

mahler123

While your logic is correct-CDs have a very low 'noise floor', your premise may not be correct. 

Please consider that if a CDs 'sound ceiling' is dramatically lowered - via compression (even more than the noise floor) - the Dynamic Range will be smaller on CDs, often much smaller.  Afterall, we are discussing a Range, and not just the noise floor value.

Best,

P.S. - going full circle, many Half-Speed Mastered, uber-vinyl pressed LPs have a noise-floor that is below (my) hearing at elevated SP levels.  This could/should also be considered when comparing CDs to LPs.

Best,

I repeat, at least in Classical, I don’t know of any compression in my several thousand CD collection.  I’ve had some recordings bump up against the ceiling of the filter on a DAC, but that hasn’t been an issue for a couple of decades.

  And isn’t the RIAA curve the ultimate example of compression?

mahler123

I don’t know of any compression in my several thousand CD collection.

That's because the compression was well applied. What labels do you prefer for classical? It is the exceptionally rare commercial recording that does not have at least some compression or limiting applied.

... isn’t the RIAA curve the ultimate example of compression?

The RIAA curve is EQ, not compression. And it's complementary, so whatever is applied at the input is compensated at the output. That's not the case with compression or limiting, which deliberately alter DR.

Excellent thread! 

Lots of detailed comments!

I've enjoyed the learning experience.

Amy Winehouse-back to black. I had it in standard and it sounded terrible. I got the half-speed master from Abbey Road and wow, incredible. I then got the half-speed of Frank and AB to regular, it was far better at half-speed.