I know this topic has been discussed here before, but wanted to see if others have the same experience as me. After removing the fishing line dangling weight from my tonearm I’m convinced my bass and soundstage has opened up. I doing very careful listening with headphones and don’t hear any distortion or treble harshness. So why use anti-skating at all? Even during deep bass/ loud passages no skipping of tracks. Any thoughts from all the analog gurus out there?
Tilting the turntable is about the same as hanging an anti-skate weight on a string, to pull the tonearm toward the spindle ... You’d have to tilt the TT very precisely toward the spindle, and you’d be guessing at the resulting anti-skate force.
No, this is mistaken. If you tilt the turntable towards the spindle, you’re not creating an anti-skating force at all. Rather, you’re adding to the existing skating force.
I do agree with @lewm that tilting a turntable to apply anti-skate doesn’t sound like good idea. It raises possible wear and other issues, and wouldn’t be as precise as a good pickup arm’s anti-skate mechanism.
Actually since the arm pivots then the tilt angle would have to be constantly adjusted during play. Since the tilt angle would need to be roughly perpendicular to the cartridge, and since no cartridge alignments result in it being perfectly tangent except at two points, then it would hardly ever be tilted exactly at the spindle. So you're both wrong! lol!
Got to say, whoever came up with this idea, its a beaut. I find it oddly comforting that however hard it is to properly play back a record (and it is really, really hard!) there's always an audiophile who can think of a way of complicating it to virtual impossibility!
Actually
since the arm pivots then the tilt angle would have to be constantly
adjusted during play. Since the tilt angle would need to be roughly
perpendicular to the cartridge, and since no cartridge alignments result
in it being perfectly tangent except at two points, then it would
hardly ever be tilted exactly at the spindle. So you're both wrong! lol!
You might want to read this thread more carefully. As @lewm stated, neither he nor I have suggested this method at all. In fact, we've discouraged it.
does an S tonearm require less or no antiskating? Is it an inherently better design?
No. The anti-skating must be equal to the tracking force. It can be slightly lower than tracking force if your stylus profile is something like MicroRidge and related (i remember this from Van den Hul interview).
Why don't you just stick to conventional golden rule instead of some exotic methods?
Buy yourself this TEST LP there are special grooves calles "Bias Settings" to set-up anti-skating correctly on any tonearm with any cartridge/stylus. You will actually hear why do you need anti-skating.
Chakster, probably you shouldn’t disseminate the idea that VTF should equal AS. For two reasons: first, most AS devices are imprecise as to the amount of AS at any particular set point, and second, because many users including me have found that if you can set AS = VTF, you end up with too much AS. Much too much in fact. However I wouldn’t argue that my own findings reveal a universal truth. But read Doug Deacon’s old thread on AS with Triplanar tonearm.
I am a conductor. I stretch out my arm and waive motions in the air to direct my orchestra. For some reason, there exist an unknown force pulling in my left arm in a way that I can’t waive/conduct freely. Therefore the first violin and every instrument on my left didn’t play as fluid as need be.
I am a cantilever. I stretch out my coils, or in the case of MM (magnets), to create waves of energy to signal my phono preamp. For some reason, there exist an anti-skating force pushing against my left coil in a way that I can’t send my left signal freely......
Cartridge and Tonearm designers are painfully aware of the nature of skating force. It has everything to do with the vector force created by friction, head shell angle, tangential force, etc. The source of skating with single pivot arm is complex and at times, unpredictable. Inventive minds spend countless hours trying to counter this phenomenon with various degrees of success. Some even chooses to ignore it at one time or another. Famous designers such as Peter Ledermann, Jonathan Carr, Harry Weisfeld, etc., design their products upon their individual set of priorities and philosophies. However little, there exist sets of compromises necessary in each due to laws of physics.
I am the the cantilever. Since the inception of phono playback system the jury is still out on the best way to counter skating force; how much anti-skate or not at all. If one should look from the cantilever’s perspective, friction and geometry pulls me towards the spindle while anti-skating mechanisms are bending me out from behind, through tonearm, to counter this force. These opposing forces are placing heavier pressure on my left side (looking out from tonearm). The more anti-skate force applied, the more pressure I receive left. So taking analogy from my opening paragraph, my left and right hands are receiving unequal forces.
What if we disregard anti-skating and let the cantilever/tonearm free itself from external counter forces. Wouldn’t we be giving a chance for the cantilever/coils to stay centered and perhaps to do a better job?
Please take this as a disclaimer. I’m far from being knowledgeable with all things “turntable”. I have neither the engineering background nor the experiences of most on this forum. Having tried both settings in numerous occasions, with or without anti-skate force, it is my personal preference to go without.
Humbly Yours
Tube be or not Tube be..... that’s the convergence, not the question.
Chakster, probably you shouldn’t disseminate the idea that VTF should equal AS. .... But read Doug Deacon’s old thread on AS with Triplanar tonearm.
This is not my full post, as i said there is a special Test Record to set up anti-skating correctly by actually hearing what the anti-skating can do with the signal coming from that test record. I also said that Van den Hul recommended to use lower anti-skating for the most advanced stylus profiles.
I can add that some High-Compliance cartridges with very low tracking force (1.25g) can jump all over record surface without anti-skating.
A Tri-Panar tonearm has fluid-damper full of silicone, many conventinal tonearms does not have this feature and result is different.
A well known retipper also claimed that he can see the effect of incorrect anti-skating on one side of the diamond under micro scope.
Mosler666 What if we disregard anti-skating and let the cantilever/tonearm free itself from external counter forces. Wouldn’t we be giving a chance for the cantilever/coils to stay centered and perhaps to do a better job?
Mosler666 et al
If your pivot arm has a straight arm tube. (Disclaimer - not responsible for any accidents this causes).
Take an elastic band 6 - 8 inches in diameter and place it around your cartridge body. ***NOT THE CANTILEVER*** obviously.
Pull out straight from the tonearm base.
You will get a good understanding visually, and a feel, for what is called the Force Vector - fancy name for this vinyl skating phenomena.
Notice how the tonearm wants to go toward the spindle. See how the elastic band bends - it represents the cantilever.
Now, take your cartridge, and straighten it out on the straight armtube, and try this again.
The Force Vector - Skating phenomena no longer exists.
The elastic band "pull" simulates the pull of the groove on the stylus.
********************************
The skating inward phenomena is due to the offset position of the cartridge, and the fact the stylus point does not line up with the pivot point of the tonearm. That's the first reason.
The second reason is the overhang -discussed here already and elsewhere. Again force vectors exist which are not directly ahead of the stylus. The surface of the record is not moving straight ahead with respect to the stylus tip. This results in these force components directed ahead and toward the center of the record.
How much skating there is based on how big the overhang is.
IMO Everybody is free to use antiskate or not use it. It's your cartridge and your records. I just feel that anyone selling a used cartridge that has not used antiskate, should say so in their Sales Ad - full disclosure.
At best, any compensation is just a rough average of the force that is required to compensate for skating forces, the actual skating force varies greatly due to different operating conditions. In particular, there is more skating force when the stylus is tracking highly modulated grooves (loud passages). Some people set anti-skating by playing test records with higher and higher levels of play and then use anti-skating to compensate for distortion appearing in one channel (if the right becomes distorted, increase anti-skating). The problem with this approach is that it applies too much compensation for more typical playing conditions.
Even though playing a blank groove does not reproduce actual playing conditions, it is used as a rough proxy for methods where you set anti-skating to cause a very slow drift toward the spindle when playing a record near the end of the record. This method has been endorsed by a number of stylus/cartridge manufacturers who know a thing or two about wear on the stylus. I like this method because it is easy. You don't even need a blank record. Put the needle down in the run-out section of a playing record and watch which way it drifts before it catches the groove. You can look up Peter Lederman's (Sound Smith) videos on the subject.
As to the persistent issue of what causes the skating force, it is caused by friction of the stylus playing the groove. The direction of that force pulling on the cantilever is roughly 90 degrees from the line between the two sides of the stylus contacting the groove. For the most part, that means that the force is pulling along the same direction as the cantilever itself. If the arm were straight, with no offset angle, the pull will be against the arm pivot. But, when the cartridge is set at an offset angle, the direction of pull is no longer toward the pivot. I have a simple way to demonstrate this phenomenon. Place your elbow on a table and hold your arm straight out and then pull your middle finger straight back. Your arm will not move because there is no sideways force. Now cock your wrist toward the right, like the offset angle of a tonearm. If you pull straight back on the middle finger like before, your arm will swing to the right. This is precisely what happens with your tonearm.
S-shaped arms are no different from other arms when it comes to skating force because the cantilever on the cartridge is not pointing at the pivot. That shape was chosen to balance the weight of the arm at the pivot.
@larryi would using something like gruv glide mitigate the issue of the pull towards the spindle due to lower friction? I’ve been using it without anti-skate to get the best possible sound. I’ve done a-b tests of same tracks with definitive enhancement of sound when no skating is present using my 2m bronze cartridge at 1.5g vtf. So maybe it’s something that’s table or cartridge related.
Yes, I would expect that lower friction would also mean lower skating force. In any event, if it sounds better to you to not use the antiskating mechanism, you then only have to decide whether or not you are concerned with uneven groove and stylus wear. Records are quite robust, so the issue of record wear might be more academic than a serious concern. For me, it is enough of an issue that I use anti-skating. In applying the Peter Lederman approach, with most arms, I end up using less anti-skating than applying the manufacturer's recommendations which are based on down-force setting.
If removing anti skating makes a vinyl playback system sound better then the setup is off somewhere. You can prove this to yourself with any good test record Like the HiFi News one. The anti skate adjust or Bias track has symmetrical test tones on both channels in increasing modulation. The game is to adjust the anti skate until neither channel distorts at the highest groove velocity. Take the anti skate off and the right channel will start buzzing like mad. Too much anti skate and the left channel will start buzzing like mad. It helps to have continuously variable adjustment. If you do not then you can fine tune by adjusting the tracking force. You can get yourself in the ballpark by just keeping an eye on the cantilever as you lower the stylus into the groove. It should remain straight ahead. If it deviates one way or another you are way off. With no anti skating applied the cantilever deviates to the edge of the record causing misalignment of coils to magnets and taking the suspension out of it's linear region.
If removing anti skating makes a vinyl playback system sound better then the setup is off somewhere.
That is not a universal truth. Kindly note that the manufacturers of some pivoted arms do not include antiskate on their arms. Of those that do, some recommend against using it. I've always found properly adjusted antiskate to be useful, btw.
Dear @mijostyn : @larryi posted a wide and simple explanation why the AS is need it always in a pivoted tonearm design and we have to add that not only what larry posted is important but the stylus shape tip and cartridge owns tracking abilities too.
I can remmeber that Audio Technica vintage tonearms came with a weigth where we can move it for each kind of stylus shape: conical, ellipthical and LC.
The best approach for a perfect anti-skate mechanism is this one in the Sony tonearm I own but not mounted at this time:
Btw, listening a pivot tonearm with out AS looking for better quality level performance makes no-sense at all because almost at no single LP recoded grooves the cantilever will stays straigth. At groove modulations microscopic level the friction forces are really really high and the cartridge cantilever always is non-starigth even if trhough our eyes we looks straigth. Important issue is not how it looks at sigth but how true looks at microscopic level.
There are exactly two reasons why tonearms skate. The offset angle of the tonearm and friction of the stylus in the groove. The tonearm is being pulled towards the spindle leaving the stylus and cantilever behind forcing the cantilever's suspension into a non linear zone like trying to run a woofer pinned against the end of its excursion. What this effects most is the cartridges tracking ability. You can prove this to yourself with any good test record like the Hi-Fi News Analogue Test LP. Play the Bias Setting band and lift your anti skate weight. The left channel will start buzzing madly. Add a lot more weight and the right channel will start buzzing madly. Get it right and both channels play the test tones beautifully. This is the only right way to set anti skate and it is at best an approximation as the skating force changes with groove speed and degree of modulation. Any setup that sounds better without anti skating was not set up correctly to begin with. Tangential tonearms that are set up correctly do not skate because they are dead straight. There is no force vector off the main axis of the tonearm. Their main theoretical advantage is that they don't skate, improving tracking no matter the speed of the groove or modulation. There is no audible benefit in them being perfectly tangent to the groove at all times and they have one major failing which is the effective mass in the horizontal plane is way higher than the vertical plane leading to two separate resonance points and stress on the cantilever moving that huge horizontal mass. Watch any of these arms with a reasonably compliant cartridge like the Ortofon Windfeld Ti and what you will see is the cantilever drift towards the record center and the the tonearm catching up to it in a cyclical manner. The benefits simply do not out weight the compromises which is why most vinylholics won't use them. I can make any of the better Rega or Project arms sound better than any straight line tracker. We are in the golden age of the turntable now. There are some fantastic inexpensive complete turntables out there. As long as you have them set up on a rock solid surface and the tonearm is set up right you will not be able to do better without spending stupid serious money. Final trick of the day. If you want to get your azimuth dead on just get a thin pocket mirror and place it on your platter. Lower the stylus on it. Light up the stylus with a spot light and you will see the stylus and its reflection make an "hourglass." Adjust your arm until the hourglass is perfectly symmetrical. This more than doubles your accuracy.
You can prove this to yourself with any good test record like the Hi-Fi News Analogue Test LP. Play the Bias Setting band and lift your anti skate weight. The left channel will start buzzing madly. Add a lot more weight and the right channel will start buzzing madly. Get it right and both channels play the test tones beautifully. This is the only right way to set anti skate and it is at best an approximation as the skating force changes with groove speed and degree of modulation. Any setup that sounds better without anti skating was not set up correctly to begin with.
I'm glad someone else has mentioned Hi-Fi Test LP finally. Because people normally posted something like "adjust by ear or using CD or blank record"
Hi-Fi Test LP is a must have, not only for anti-skating, but for eoverall setup, there is a free protractor inside.
Stringreen, the most important thing I have learned in this passionate hobby over the last 55 years is, Never Trust Your Ears. The problem with ears is that they are connected to a brain. Brains can accommodate to stimuli in amazing ways. Example. You walk into a room with a really bad odor. In about 5 minutes you notice it is not near as bad but then another person walks in wrinkles their nose and says "boy it stinks in here!" Always follow the science when you have it. Cartridges in pivoted tonearms track much better and have much lower distortion with anti skating set correctly. Setting up a turntable correctly is not easy. Very few dealers have someone who knows what they are doing. I hate to say this because as a company McIntosh's customer service has no equal but I just had to re adjust one of their MT5 turntables. Not only was it out of alignment but the resonant frequency was too high. I had to add 2 grams of lead to get it down to 10 Hz. It was supposed to have been set up at the factory. Every vinyl jockey should have the tools and learn how to do this to get the best out of their turntable. These are, A protractor ( I like the DB Systems best), a pocket mirror, a bright light, a little engineers square, little screwdrivers, cartridge weights, a level bubble and a good test record like the Hi-Fi News Analogue Test LP.
Oh, I forgot to add. You do not need a Fozgometer or an oscilloscope to do this right with modern cartridges. A good eye and the right tools can do this perfectly. Back in the day cartridges were all over the place. Cantilevers set in crooked, styli not perpendicular to the cartridge body not to mention internal inaccuracies. But today I have not seen a single Ortofon, Clear Audio, Lyra, Koetsu or My Sonic Lab cartridge that wasn't dead on. Don't forget you have to use cartridges that match the effective mass of your tone arm. You can always add weight to a stiff cartridge but it is much harder to subtract weight from your tone arm when you use a highly compliant cartridge.
the most important thing I have learned in this passionate hobby over the last 55 years is, Never Trust Your Ears.
Surely you meant to say that you can never trust YOUR ears. How on Earth would you know about anyone else? But trust me when I say, if your 55 years has taught you not to trust your own ears, I believe you.
Dear @mijostyn : """
Cartridges in pivoted tonearms track much better and have much lower distortion with anti skating set correctly. "
Yes but the problem word in that statement is: " correctly " and till today exist no single method/mechanism to set up " correctly ".
The best approach to comes in that link on the Sony PUA 237 tonearm. It's very interesting to read not only its manual but the link there " bias compensation " wide explanation. I said the best approach but not correctly/perfect.
Using test records is not any science and can't really helps. Why? because the AS testing record modulations are recorded at an specific space in the surface of the LP and because the S vector changes at each single grooves modultions.
Set up of AS maybe is the more complicated and almost imposible to do it " correctly ".
Finally took a photo of my 20yrs+ cartridge. Don’t want to guess how many hours I’d logged on her but the diamond still looks pretty good. Anti-skating was minimal to none.
Trusting your ears and knowing what you like to listen to are two very different subjects. Distinguishing fine differences in sound is difficult for humans because our audio memory is so short. Not only this but because of our brains ability to accommodate a system that sounds awful does not sound so bad after a while which is why you always trust your initial impression. Fortunately distortion being so dissonant is always easy to hear like the elephant in your garage is easy to see. Knowing these things makes you a much better listener. Most of what Cleeds thinks he hears is his brain screwing around with him assuming he has one. Any pivoted offset tonearm that does not have anti skating can be thrown in the trash unless you want to jury rig a system for it. Turntable setup is not art, it is a science requiring extreme fastidiousness. There are lots of things brains can't do well which is why we have test records. Raulruegas the best you can do is to set the bias so the stylus tracks the test record correctly. It is the best approximation you can get. Looking at the cantilever only gets you in the ballpark. This method will not work with very stiff cartridges like Koetsus. The other neat trick is to find an album with a blank side like Cleopatra by the Lumineers. You can get in the ballpark by adjusting the bias so the arm does not drift or drifts outward slightly when you play the blank. Never trust the scales on the tonearm. They are great for reference. For example if you are a cartridge jockey you record all the settings for each cartridge so you can return to them easily without having to go through the whole process again.
Yes
but the problem word in that statement is: " correctly " and till today
exist no single method/mechanism to set up " correctly ".
That's really not quite true. Just because something can't be executed perfectly doesn't mean that it can't be done; there's no reason to let perfection be the enemy of the good. In engineering, everything has a tolerance, and the same is true of anti-skate. There's no reason not to use anti-skate just because you aren't certain that a given setting is "perfect."
There is a huge difference between evaluating a change in sound quality and knowing what you like to hear. We have a notoriously short audio memory and if we listen to a system that sounds "bad" long enough after a while it does not sound as bad. This is why you always trust your first impression. Fortunately distortion is easy to hear because it is so dissonant, sort of like looking for an elephant in a garage full of cars. Rouliruegas, the best you can do is setting the bias with a test record. That is what I mean by correctly and yes it is not perfect. It can't be. there are too many changing variables you can not correct for. Viewing the cantilever angle just gets you in the ballpark and even that does not work well with very stiff cartridges like the Koetsu. Another neat trick to get you in the ball park is using a blank record. Cleopatra by the Lumineers is a three sided disk. The forth side is blank. You adjust the bias until the arm starts to drift backwards playing the blank side then fine tune with the test record. Any arm without bias adjustment is trash unless you want to jury rig a bias mechanism for it. The primary problem is not sound quality or wear. It is tracking distortion. Any arm without bias is going to miss track the outside groove wall at lower velocities than a properly set up arm. Any good test record will demonstrate that. They are relatively cheap. Don't listen to me. Prove it to yourself. Oh, do not trust the gradations on the tonearms. They are good for reference. Cartridge jockeys can write down the settings so that when they change cartridges they can go back to the proper setting without having to go through the whole routine again. Creed, I am an MD and can guarantee you I know a lot more about the brain than you do. You are not your brain. You as a psychological entity are a maze of bioelectrical reactions taking place in what is hopefully a brain. Soon it might be in a computer. I can damage your brain and disrupt those reactions and you won't be there any more but the brain still is. Alzheimers disease is a way of doing it slowly. Now, where you go afterwards is a matter of debate. Audio sales people are generally headed south.
Larryi you are essentially correct except for one thing. It is the loudest passages you want to set the tonearm for as they are the hardest to track. The lighter passages are easy and a little more bias here does not matter near as much. It is the stylus following the groove that you are interested in nothing else. Fidelity will not change at all until the cantilever is way off center in the non linear zone. Very stiff cartridges, very low compliance like the Air Tight and Koetsu might sound just fine playing a string quartet without anti skate. Put on Aerosmith and they will pop right out of the groove. All this is the argument for tangential tonearms. I have had three of them and can guarantee they are way more headache and unreliable than a good pivoted arm. Just ask Michael Fremer.
I use a linear tracker (Kuzma Airline) and the fine horizontal balancing set up involves bouncing the arm while it is in its 'up' cueing position at different points along the face of a record to see which way the arm drifts-- the objective, if I recall the instructions correctly (and I re-read them when I do this setting) is drift slightly outward at rim of record, neutral at center of record and slightly inward an inner grooves. This is supposed to be more exact than any level or measure and in fact that has proven true. So the arm is level, but.... I haven't used a conventional arm for a dozen years but am adding one- it's en route to me now, and it has an anti-skate device. So, I will be doing his setting for the first time in a long time. Riddle me this- using a test record, are you checking for anti-skate at more than one place on the record? If not, why not? (Not a trick question and no hidden agenda other than my curiosity and fairly long lack of hands on experience in messing with an anti-skate setting).
There is a good reason for not setting anti-skating to work best for the loudest passage. According to a number of experts, including Peter Lederman of SoundSmith, skating force varies with groove modulation, with more force at higher modulation levels. I don't know why this would be the case, but, that is what he claims. If you set anti-skating to be optimal for the most extreme passages, it would be too high for the vast majority of time the record plays well below that level. Because I don't need high anti-skating to reduce distortion when playing regular records (only test records distort grossly), I go with slightly less than what is indicated by playing test records at the highest modulation level. Lederman's observations and recommendations are base on seeing observing wear on cartridges (he is a cartridge manufacturer and rebuilder).
I know there are all sorts of methodologies, and all of them are, at best, rough corrections, so I don't sweat it that much.
Larry, yes when the groove velocity (modulation) increases friction of the stylus in the groove increases increasing the skating force. Groove velocity also decreases as you move to the center of the record. Now, do you set your tracking force to track light passages allowing mistracking on the heavy ones chewing up the grooves? I think not. Tracking force is set heavy enough to make it through the tough passages. Same thing goes for antiskating. You are adjusting it to minimize tracking distortion. Cleeds, please excuse me. I should have clarified myself better. I meant tracking distortion. Even order harmonic distortion can be euphoric. Pass intentionally designs a little of it into his amps. Other distortion not so, at least over 1%. Usually the bias adjustment bands are at mid disc. I guess the thought is to get an average velocity. There are many variables you just can not account for. But, the goal is to minimize miss tracking. Any pivoted arm cartridge combination with properly adjusted anti skate is going to easily out track one without. Get a test record and prove it to yourself. If the stylus leans a little bit to one side or another makes no sonic difference. This is another reason so many of us don’t switch to a tangential tracker. There is no sonic improvement to justify the added complexity. Larry, Peter has no idea what the cartridges he is reduilding have been through. The owners usually have no idea. The primary determinants of the skating force in a given arm cartridge combination are VTF and groove velocity. Modulation is a minor contributor. The geometry of the best anti skating devices is such that the counter force applied decreases automatically at the arm moves towards the center of the record compensating for the decreasing groove velocity.
Since kinetic friction (the force of friction between two moving objects) is only a function of the normal force (the force vector that is perpendicular to the contact surfaces of the two objects) and the coeffecient of friction (mu) between the two objects, stylus velocity should in fact have no effect on the magnitude of the skating force. So, for a cartridge and an LP, only the vinyl groove, the shape of the stylus, and the VTF should count. The reason the skating force does change in magnitude across the surface of the LP is due to the ever changing tracking angle error and to groove tortuosity, which forces the stylus to accelerate around the tiny curves in order to hold the speed of its travel constant. These mini-accelerations of the stylus tip, which are happening at all points, cause mini-changes in the force exerted by the tonearm to hold the cartridge in place and corresponding changes in the skating force. That's the way I see it, given that velocity is not a factor in the formula for kinetic friction.
Actually Lewm groove velocity takes into account the length of the path the stylus travels through the groove. The more tortuous the higher the velocity. The force required to move the stylus back and forth is seen by the system as friction. So, the higher the groove velocity the higher the friction. Groove velocity is not the speed of the record past the stylus. Velocity depends on speed, frequency and modulation. Accordingly, skating force decreases as the arm travels inwards. Most modern anti skate mechanisms compensate for this at least to some degree. Tracking angle error has very little to do with it as long as the arm is set up correctly. It is all about friction and offset angle and offset angle is fixed.
Mijo, No. I was going to leave it at that, but let me take your statements in reverse order:
"Tracking angle error has very little to do with it as long as the arm is set up correctly. It is all about friction and offset angle and offset angle is fixed." It's actually about the friction force, we both agree, and about the degree to which the cantilever is not tangent to the groove. A major reason for lack of tangency, for all tonearms that are mounted such that the stylus overhangs the spindle, is headshell offset angle. Again, we agree. But in addition to the headshell offset angle, there is a variable lack of tangency to the groove, created by the tonearm geometry. At the two null points of any typical alignment algorithm, where the cantilever is tangent to the groove (tracking angle error = 0), there is still a skating force due to headshell offset angle. But at all other points on the LP surface, headshell offset angle is not the only cause of lack of tangency. That additional ever changing angle is one reason why the skating force is changing all the time.
"The more tortuous the higher the velocity. The force required to move the stylus back and forth is seen by the system as friction. So, the higher the groove velocity the higher the friction." That's a very appealing concept, and I was sort of thinking that way too, but "velocity" does not appear in the equation for friction. So you and I cannot have it that way. The way I see it now, the tortuosity of the groove results in those mini-acceleration events; the stylus MUST obey the speed of the turntable. No matter how many twists and turns in the groove. Thus, the stylus is experiencing mini-accelerations (acceleration = change in velocity) as it is dragged around the LP at a constant net speed through those zigs and zags of the groove. Acceleration does generate a Force. (Remember, F = ma.) Those small forces being generated, acting through lack of tangency to the groove wall, must be resisted by the cantilever, the cartridge body, and ultimately the stiff tonearm to which it's attached. That contributes to the skating force as well.
Lewn Theoretically you are correct in that varying tangency will change the force vector but in real life the error is so small it does not account for much. You are mistaking velocity with record speed. As the modulation increases so does velocity. In a heavily modulated groove the record has to exert more force on the stylus to move it and the stylus is moving faster. In a straight groove the record is applying only straight ahead friction and the stylus is not moving (through space) at all. The energy (work) required to move the stylus is seen as friction and a little heat. You could make the argument that anti skate does not decrease towards the center of the record because actual velocity does not change. There are just as many squiggles they are just closer together. And indeed it does not change as much as you would expect given the vast difference in groove speed between the outside and inside of the record. I did make a miss statement earlier when I said velocity decreased towards the inside of the record. It does not. Groove speed decreases towards the inside of the record. What would be nice is a test record with a bias band an entire side. That would be fun!
I haven’t read through this thread but here’s my take...
On my VPI, (we know Harry doesn’t advocate anti-skate) I haven’t noticed any difference in sound with or without. It just makes perfect sense to use it for the health of my records. As long as your azimuth is good, that’s much more important for SQ.
On my VPI, (we know Harry doesn’t advocate anti-skate)
From the VPI owners manual
As mentioned earlier, the arm wire applies the anti-skating force. The degree of force applied can be adjusted, to increase anti-skating force give the connector a counterclockwise twist, unwinding the wires natural twist. Likewise, to decrease the force, give the connector a clockwise twist, winding the wires natural twist. Remember, the Lemo connector can only be "adjusted" in increments of whole turns. If it is not, its key will not line up with the groove in the receptacle
Mijo, check it out: F = Fn*mu, where F is the force needed to counter friction between two bodies in motion with respect to each other. Fn is the normal force ( meaning VTF in this argument). mu is the coefficient of friction.
Where do you see velocity? Speed is a scalar quantity; this is about vectors. Your argument isn’t terribly wrong, except you are resistant to seeing my point that velocity has nothing to do with it; it’s changes in velocity that are causing additional forces. Any change in velocity is an acceleration.
When I used to be in closer proximity to buddies systems, we used to frequent each other. All of the systems , including mine with various pivot tonearms, (still own a Dyna) allowed you to hear, if you listened closely, to the two spots on the record where the stylus was lined up best with the groove, depending on the geometry you are using. Where the stars align for the pivot arm .
For those few seconds over each spot the focus is definitely - clearer.
IMO - If your anti skate is set up - ok - you should be able to make out these two spots...I mean should you decide to listen in this technical way.
Now an interesting thing...
One turntable where this was definitely not the case, was with a Technics sl1200, with grado black, that I used to loan out.
But still .....it sounded good; which leads me to come to the conclusion that even if off a little, vinyl distortions with a pivot setup are "pleasing in nature" for the lack of a better word, the technics sl1200 pivot arm still sounded decent.
It's not until you hear better, that you realize the setup is off, from the better pivot tonearm setup.
Lewm only in a straight line. If you rub your finger against smooth glass at a specific speed and pressure you will encounter a certain amount of friction. If you rub your finger across 100 grit sandpaper at the same force and speed you will encounter more friction aside from taking your skin off. The groove is not that rough relative to the size of your finger but Newton's third law applies. In order to move the stylus relative to the cartridge and tonearm you have to apply a force which is what the groove does. The equal and opposite reaction is friction and heat. Unfortunately, the situation is so plastic given the variation in frequencies in combination I do not think there is any math to describe this. You are right about the effect of straight line speed on friction but a groove is anything but a straight line. The coefficient is probably not constant given the changing frequencies but I do not know this for a fact and I will try to fine academic support for that theory. I also think I can arrange an experiment. I can set the anti skate via a test record then play a smooth side at the same distance from the spindle as the test track and see which direction the tonearm slides. I'll get back with the results.
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