DAC contest: Border Patrol Sei or Chord Qutest?

Denafrips Pontus ll

Better than both. IMHO

This is a comparaison between the two... and it mirrors my findings. This being said, both are very good.                                           ihttps://youtu.be/XmPRQzsM0Cw?list=PLZToa7thVvKgKSc-EaIFy1f8i07BVkn6v

That Denafrips caught my eye a while ago. If the DAC was on the table I would likely agree and get one...

@cagma7 ,

 Variety is the spice of life!

OP.  Ok, fair enough. A comparison between the Border Patrol and I assume the Chord Cutest, wouldn't prove much because those two dacs are so different sounding from one another it would be hard to make a fair comparison. Notice I said different sounding, not better or worse.

Found the Border Patrol for $900, so it seemed like a good addition. A concern was the Beryllium tweeters paired with a highly detailed, extremely precise DAC. The BP is not nearly as 'precise' as some.

Again I will mention that this thread came about when the earlier one was taken over by a DAC conversation. I initially asked about CD transports that I should consider that might be a bit better than NuPrime's CDT-9.

As mentioned above, these are two very different-sounding DACs with very different designs.  It would be most helpful if you could share what improvements you’re looking for, what sound characteristics are most important to you, and what other equipment is in your system.  You’ll get much better and more useful recommendations sharing this critical info, and as it stands I’ve no way to make a meaningful recommendation despite wanting to try to help if possible.  

I tried a Border Patrol DAC after seeing the Steve Guthenberg Audiofiliac video on it, but when I tried it I thought it was very smoothed over and kind of lifeless in its sound. I was using an Ayre Codex at the time, and since then I went to a Chord Twoqute then to their Qutest and definitely the Chords are much more detailed and energetic and realistic.

Some people do like the Boerder Patrol unit it seems but maybe they haven't compared it to other ones that can give a clearer view onto the musical performance.

@swvaaudiofan " a member who insisted that I had to ditch the Border Patrol before doing anything else in my system."

+1 soix - pay attention to what is being asked here by soix. I’ll add-in a few thoughts.

-------

Has this insistent member heard your system in your room with your speakers... How anyone could be insistent without hearing your setup is a novice shooting in the dark.

What about your BP SE-I dac is not sounding right to you, and what do you hope to change about the sound more to your liking by purchasing another dac?

imo, try to figure out this part out before getting on/off the dac treadmill, if you can help it. I agree with others, the Chord or Denefrips vs. the BP SE-I dac will sound different. Part of this has to do with the result and type of presentation you are looking for, and/or dealing with taming your Be tweeted speakers.

Oh: the first 24-48hrs of burn-in with the BP SE-I can be terrible (veiled over) sounding as the caps form and other components settle in. Can share notes from Gary on all of this. I now believe some people resale this dac not knowing this part. Patience :)

btw, recently acquired the BP SE-I with the updated Beez Wax caps and new choke design, and like it quite a bit with my all-tube system and speakers, all of which is revealing and transparent. Also owned/compared to other dacs that I enjoy for other reasons. The BP truly does something different, like it or not. Deciding really depends on your system and your preference at the end of the day, fwiw.

Before I received the advice to replace the DAC and not the CD transport, I had listed my entire system on a thread I called "What's Up?". So that info was there for the critic to analyze. You know and I know that didn't happen. A belief in the Chord and a dismissal of the BP came out in a complete demolition of the thread itself.

I will ad here that I installed a wall in an open floor plan to create a dedicated listening area. Then I lined that wall with acoustic foam. Hearing an improvement, I hung acoustic foam on the other side using the stout curtain rod installed there. It's dark and dead in there now - just like it should be.

I'll keep the NuPrime - or sell it. I'll keep the Border Patrol - or sell it. Seems to me asking a direct question on a forum was a dumb idea in the first place.

Seems ro me you got some pretty direct answers.

This is my original post called What's Up. And I'm the asshole? Go look at Jjss49's response. Not only will I stop following this crap, I'm leaving Audiogon completely. The jerk and his supporters can pretend it was me, but some of you are smart enough to figure out where this all went South.

Audio system source change suggestions? I’m considering options from a Border Patrol Sei SPDIF DAC back to the CD transport. Currently have Audio Sensibility’s Statement SE Coaxial 1.5m cable and the NuPrime CDT-9 with LPS power supply. On the other end of the system, it is all Odyssey Audio (Candela preamp, Khartago modified to Kismet level monoblock amps, and Kismet floor standing speakers).

How far up the food chain might I have to go with a CD transport and SPDIF cable to take the sound to the next level – improved imaging, soundstage, and tonal balance?

I will ad here that I installed a wall in an open floor plan to create a dedicated listening area. Then I lined that wall with acoustic foam. Hearing an improvement, I hung acoustic foam on the other side using the stout curtain rod installed there. It's dark and dead in there now - just like it should be.

Uh, so, “dark and dead” is your idea of a good-sounding room?  To each his own I guess.  Still no info on what improvements or sound characteristics are being sought so I got nuthin’. Peace out. 

@soix "Still no info on what improvements or sound characteristics are being sought so I got nuthin’. Peace out. ".

Yep, agree. When basic questions don’t get answered and responses include other solutions instead, agree - time to bail out.

I used to own a Chord Qutest. Now I own a Chord DAVE and M-Scaler. I own other DACs too. Two years ago at AXPONA, one of my favorite rooms was the Border Patrol room. The Border Patrol DAC just has a natural engaging sound to it. Very easy to listen to. I love Chord products for all their attributes, particularly around detail retrieval. But the Chord DACs are very different from the Border Patrol. Subsequent, to the AXPONA above, I purchase a used Border Patrol SE-i DAC. I like this DAC very much and it is a keeper in my collection. I think it’s attractiveness may at least in part be related to it being different than a lot of DACs on the market. 

In the past three years I’ve had at least a dozen. All the way from the blue sound all the way to the dCS Bartók. I’ve heard them all. The one that makes the most sense is called the OCTO eight stereo. It’s about 1500 bucks sounds just like the dCS Bartók. I spent several hours going back-and-forth between the two and could not tell the difference 

This is my original post called What's Up. And I'm the asshole? Go look at Jjss49's response. Not only will I stop following this crap, I'm leaving Audiogon completely. The jerk and his supporters can pretend it was me, but some of you are smart enough to figure out where this all went South.

Audio system source change suggestions? I’m considering options from a Border Patrol Sei SPDIF DAC back to the CD transport. Currently have Audio Sensibility’s Statement SE Coaxial 1.5m cable and the NuPrime CDT-9 with LPS power supply. On the other end of the system, it is all Odyssey Audio (Candela preamp, Khartago modified to Kismet level monoblock amps, and Kismet floor standing speakers).

How far up the food chain might I have to go with a CD transport and SPDIF cable to take the sound to the next level – improved imaging, soundstage, and tonal balance?

seems like this guy @swvaaudiofan takes time from kicking the dog and beating the wife to come here and spew...  sorry for the tit for tat, but since he called me out i will reply

he wanted advice on how he could swap out his nuprime cd transport and rca spdif cable to ’bring his sound to the next level’ ... got indignant and pissy when i suggested his border patrol dac was what he was hearing through his system, so i suggested maybe a more detailed, open, transparent dac like a qutest or gustard r26 might be ’next level’ for him -- but he took umbrage at that thought

well, to make him happy ... here we go... this will part the seas and stir the heavens ... 😁

@jjss49 imo, your dac advice was spot on if uber-detail and added transparency was a goal of the OP. Those are not characteristics my own Border Patrol SE-I dac is known for. Something I was completely aware of before purchasing mine.

To your point, my own BP SE-I dac sounds smoothed over, slightly less detailed, less spatial/open, and more focused on weighty midrange, body, gentle detail, with a moderately sized sound stage -vs-. my other Schiit Bifrost 2/64 R2R dac, for example. I enjoy both for completely different types of sound and presentations.

In my system BP killed Chord TT2/M-Scaler and it wasn't funny at all

because of the huge price difference... 

Those who are familiar with TDA 1541 chip and its use in many popular CD players 30 years ago made by Philips, Marantz, Rotel, Sony, Naim, Arcam, Sudgen and Cambridge probably know the SQ of this DAC chip better than I am. As with all DACs, the SQ is mainly determined by design and implementation but the quality of DAC chip matters too. TDA 1543 used in SE-I is the relatively lesser quality chip to its much more popular brother 1541 especially the double crown version. I had Rotel RCD 855 for a while that uses 1541. It sounds very musical, rich, laid back and has no digital glare and hence no listening fatique. I really enjoy it. But just like Steve mention, the modern DAC like Denafrips Ares (even being a R2R) will sound "definintely" more clear, transparent and vivid but less soulful and solid as one listens to the live music. My experience with Rotel 855 confirms that. So, how one likes the TDA 1541/1543 based DAC really depends on your taste and preference. Techinically, SEi only supports 24 bits PCM up to 96 khz and no DSD that limits its practicality. To me it is a deal breaker but YMMV.

@jjss49, there was nothing wrong with your response. Your assessment of the OP is spot on. He’s just trying to start some s#!+ and deserves to be ignored.

Troidelover1499 I had a similar experience as the setup used to demo a pair of speakers I bought used border patrol SEi. It was my foray back into hifi a couple of years ago. At the time I hadn’t heard other DACs so I didn’t know any better and bought one. Someone loaned me an Ayre codex and the difference was striking. While a little rough, the codex had much more detail. From there I moved on to the Ayre QB9 Twenty - another move up in SQ. My latest iteration is a DAC built into a SS integrated amp which, with my current cable setup, sounds even better to my old ears. Sometimes wish I could experiment with more DACs and cables because I believe that’s where the most sound variation exists. It’s an expensive hobby!!

@decooney

i totally agree... the bp is built for a certain kind of presentation, that is valued and appreciated for certain listeners and certain systems needing the ’calm’ and ’musicality’, whereas the chord and others of its ilk is for those on the opposite end of the sonic spectrum seeking zip, spice, attack and so on

one is not better than other, synergy and subjective preference always rules - rich creamy mashed potatoes versus a spicy caesar

in this op’s case, i mentioned the other extreme for dac presentation as he was looking for ’next level’, whatever that means

@hysteve i.e. "the difference was striking...". "Sometimes wish I could experiment with more DACs and cables because I believe that’s where the most sound variation exists. It’s an expensive hobby!!"

It’s been a surprise to me how various dacs can sound so different from one to the next. Using @jjjsss’s example, how much salt/pepper/spice should someone add to food starts with tasting and describing the taste before adding anything at all.

Until someone like the OP can actually describe what they are hearing or missing (in great detail - with comparison examples) the whole idea of anyone asking which daca vs. dacb is better, or what to buy, is kinda pointless and difficult to answer to.  

@soix 

At what point you are going to stop asking the same questions to almost every post in Audiogon?

It would be most helpful if you could share what improvements you’re looking for, what sound characteristics are most important to you, and what other equipment is in your system.  You’ll get much better and more useful recommendations sharing this critical info, and as it stands I’ve no way to make a meaningful recommendation despite wanting to try to help if possible.

At what point you are going to stop asking the same questions to almost every post in Audiogon?

@lordrootman What exactly is your issue with me asking these critical questions? I ask them over and over again because posters here frequently don’t share near enough information to make an informed and truly useful recommendation, and I don’t like wasting my time throwing darts at a dartboard while blindfolded — got better things to do with my time. I’m here because I really like trying to help people if at all possible and if I have something to offer, but that requires some key info otherwise it’s like a patient going to the doctor and not sharing his symptoms leaving the doctor to just guess. Get it? If you don’t like my posts you’re perfectly free to just skip them, but a lot of people here have been pretty appreciative of my help over the years largely because I ask these critical questions. If you like throwing useless darts while blindfolded and just get off on telling people what YOU like regardless of whether it’s appropriate for what the OP is actually  looking for, well, you do you and I’ll do me and the audio world keeps spinning. Jeez. Really???

now we have to argue about asking useful questions so we can actually help someone properly? man oh man... 🙄

I think Most of the time people who ask questions here are actually looking for hands on experience from actual owners if not there’s a lot of positive reviews about anything out there we can simply takes their words for it 

I think Most of the time people who ask questions here are actually looking for hands on experience from actual owners if not there’s a lot of positive reviews about anything out there we can simply takes their words for it

@lordrootman Yes, hands on experience from others is rightly valued here, but that experience has to be focused on what the OP is looking to achieve, and that requires specific information. If “there’s a lot of positive reviews about anything out there we can simply takes their words for it.”  Seriously?  Are you kidding me??? What about knowing what the OP’s sound preferences and goals are? Just because some talking head likes something means next to nothing if his tastes and system are different from the OP here. It’s all relative to personal tastes, system, and room among other things, which is precisely why I ask the questions I do. Just taking someone’s word for it is anathema to the whole spirit of this site. I truly feel sorry for you if you can’t comprehend this.

@lordrootman "...we can simply takes their words for it". 

While this might occur for those less familiar, most of the more practiced folks here will ask a few mindful questions to try and help steer someone in a proper direction. A selected DAC is not going to always sound the same in different people's rooms, systems, applications. There are other factors to consider, hence the more detailed follow-up questions by some folks here just trying to help. That's all.    

BP make a fine DAC and synergy is key. What is OP's system? 

For a variety of reasons, this is a truly bizarre thread.

If an OP isn't willing to answer perfectly reasonable questions, what's the point? 

@decooney 

just read what I wrote don’t just take piece to fit your response 

why do I have to listen to a guy he seems to have knowledge on everything post on here ?

like I said most people are looking for hands on  experience From actual owners 

not from random people who has zero experience but pretending to have 

I rather listen to a reviewer who is actually has hands on experience  to the particular dac I’m interested 

@lordrootman "...why do I have to listen to a guy he seems to have knowledge on everything post on here ?"

You don't have to. And we all appreciate hands on experience, no argument there. There are responses that agitate each of us at times, no big deal - over time we kinda learn to ignore what we don't find helpful. Take away whatever we can, shrug off the rest imo. Happy listening.  👍     

These two are a lot of "apples and oranges".  In MY system, the Border Patrol is the pretty clear winner over the Qutest (and yes, I've owned them both). I really enjoyed the Qutest when I dumped my Ayre Codex about three years ago.  All the things that Chord is known for, lots of detail and space.  It's excellent and for anybody who believes more detail is better.  Until I got more resolving speakers.  With my Volti Rivals, the Chord's tone and timbre just couldn't compare with the Border Patrol (mine is the SE-I version).  If you do quick A-B comparisons of the two, I can see why some would prefer the Chord.  But if you actually just let each unit go for about of week of listening and see which one actually lets you enjoy the music more, it's the Border Patrol.  The review linked above is actually right on point.

As with all audio gear and setups, people have very different tastes and preferences, there is never one right answer.  I would imagine for example that if someone combined the Qutest with Focal speakers, it would make my ears bleed, but others would love the hyper detail.  I personally admire the Qutest more than I love it.  I love the Border Patrol and will never get rid of it even as systems evolve.

For background, my other stand-alone DAC (in another system) is a Merason DAC1 and I auditioned DACS by Ideon, Matrox, Weiss & Bricasti before going ith the Merason.  

@badgerdms "For background, my other stand-alone DAC (in another system) is a Merason DAC1 and I auditioned DACS by Ideon, Matrox, Weiss & Bricasti before going ith the Merason."

Nice. Some worthy dac comparison references there. A few colleagues of mine have those Merason dacs. Thanks for the added comments explaining how you heard enjoyable differences with more revealing speakers. This part is so key.

@badgerdms ...But if you actually just let each unit go for about of week of listening and see which one actually lets you enjoy the music more, it’s the Border Patrol. ...

The recently new BP SE-I dac model I have with the Jupiter Beeswax caps sure seems to take its sweet time to settle in. Not quite at the recommended full week of hours yet, and it’s a mind game so far. Has transformed at least 2-3 times now, and more change last night during a long listening session.

Had I not gone through this with other caps, I could see how folks get impatient and resell too fast. This explains a lot, there is a prize at the other end, as I gather it now. Curious to know what others have experienced, and did they not give it enough time? I suspect this may be the case now for some, not letting the whole dac settle in.

First 24-48 hours of use was rolled off on the high freq, rich and thick. Now with more time on it, has started to open up with added texture, really interesting and engaging midrange, particularly with tracks I normally would not listen to, yet I can with this dac. Gary at BP instructed it would be at least a solid 75hrs burn-in to start, and another 2-5% gain later with more time. I can begin to understand what he’s talking about now. It’s sound is transforming exactly as he said it would, nice.

@jetter 

I just think when a person relatively new to the hobby asks a question and a member inevitably comes on as all knowing, at least he should post pictures of his system so the noobie has an idea of his frame of reference.

+100... spot on

this comment should be the headline of the other thread about frequent posters showing their systems

I just think when a person relatively new to the hobby asks a question and a member inevitably comes on as all knowing, at least he should post pictures of his system so the noobie has an idea of his frame of reference.

@jetter First, I never said I was “all knowing” so you can just save that utter crap. All I try to do is get as good of an idea as possible about what an OP is really looking for and then share whatever experience I have through what I’ve heard and/or read if I think it might be helpful in some way. That’s it. I don’t profess to be “right” when making recommendations because that’s just arrogant and stupid. Many people have messaged me over the years that they really appreciated my thoughts and found them very helpful, which is all that matters to me while your and @lordrootman opinions mean virtually nothing.

But, you make a good point about my system not being listed listed here so I took care of that oversight just now — pictures to follow whenever I get around to it.

@jetter @jjss49 +1000000

not sure what is being argued here...

@soix is a long time contributor, gives plenty of useful advice and is always careful to ask for enough info from those seeking advice before he gives it... to me, it is a ’best practice’ among those who frequent this site to share their views

as is being covered in another thread, it is useful when folks giving advice also share their experience level... the systems page can do that, or, for those who care to check, everyone’s past posts are right there to be seen with a few clicks

as usual, more transparency is better than less among users here, more experience is better than less in this pursuit, and on this forum where advice is sought and given both givers and recipients of advice or input should seek and provide clarity

I have the pleasure of owning 2 BP DAC’s (one of which is now in the hands of my daughter) as well as a Denafrips Terminator Plus. While my present go-to DAC is the Denafrips, I really do like the BP DAC and I often switch between the two. While vocals sound great on both, I lean towards the BP DAC for a slightly softer presentation with the Denafrips slightly sharper. I’ve never heard the Chord Qutest DAC so I can’t comment, however as many have said, those who have owned both have their listening experiences to share. Everyone’s listening experiences are different and getting a better understanding of the greater details and each person’s preferences can help in deciding which would be the better. Fortunately, I believe BP has a return policy if you should decide to get one to try. Like those who have purchased, play the BP DAC for about 100 hours so it has time to settle in. I believe you’ll be glad you did. Gary of BP is a terrific guy and is easy to work with. His products are well-made, sound great and are reliable.

re: BorderPatrol SE-I DAC / Input tubes on your tube preamplifier?

For those running tube preamplifiers and the BP SE-I DAC, I had still been running softer sounding input tubes in my preamplifier as a carry-over from running other types of transparent dacs prior to my BorderPatrol DAC SE-I acquisition.

Change:

Today, swapped in a few of my other more transparent sounding 6SN7 preamplifier input tubes just for grins. Things opened up nicely, more soundstage and layering is present. Plenty of detail, separation, and sound stage with the BP SE-I dac. It’s worth trying different tubes and cables with this dac to fine tune more. Glad I tried it, passing it along fwiw.