Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@laoman @Noske,

In my culture we are taught to be gentle to those people who are not completely normal as they cannot help themselves. Consequently I will no longer respond to you. I wish you well.

I understand. Thankyou on this occasion for your generosity of spirit in explaining to others about your own predicament.  In psychology it is called projectionism.

In the meantime, others may wish to know the answer to my quite simple question - is that too difficult?

@Noske,

In my culture we are taught to be gentle to those people who are not completely normal as they cannot help themselves. Consequently I will no longer respond to you. I wish you well.

@laoman Given your open hostility and generally confronting and aggressive manner, would it make any difference to you and the tag team here at AG were Amir to answer any of your leading questions?

If so, how?  

@amir_asr

Let me ask you this.

Have you purchased Topping equipment yourself of the shelf and compared the insides to what is sent to you for testing to ensure they are the same?

Why did you not speak up when 39% of the purchasers of the DS90 owners experienced problems - this of a Dac that you highly recommended? Should recommendations not take reliability into account as well?

Do you think it is reasonable that John Yang comes on your site to rubbish the products of other manufacturers, but runs away at the first sign of a problem.

If your site is not a cult, why have you thrown out members who have differing opinions to products and to measurement than you and your members? This site allows all opinions and views.

@amir_asr Well spoken amir. Although, banning someone for stating an opinion is quite harsh, could such in future maybe be solved via discussion or a PM?

OK ... so ... someone claims he/she has a nicer ’soundstage’ after installing an expensive ethernet cable, while if we measure this cable there’s no difference at all in the transfer of the bits and bytes. Or someone else claims more bass extension after upgrading to an expensive power cord ... while it’s inexplicable? These people enjoy their purchase, while others may say they are scammed. How can we live peacefully together?

I have no solution, other than please stay calm. There’s no reason for quarrel between objectivists who solely rely on facts and measurements and subjectivists who don’t discard the measurements but also rely on their feelings. If he/she hears a difference, who am I to deny this is even possible?

It’s like wine tasting ... we can objectively measure acidity and spectrum analyze the exact chemical composition, still people will smell and taste different things.

As long as measurements are not brought upon us as better or worse ’sound quality’ and as long as subjective hearing is not brought upon us as a fact, maybe we can all appreciate each others measurements and opinions and live peacefully together? Without bans?

@kota1

@amir_asr, welcome to the forum, will you reciprocate and allow members here to post on your forum without instant bans because we have a wide range of opinions that may not be popular on asr as long as we are respectful?

You know, your members simply lose it if anyone likes a component that they have 0 personal experience with, but is simply popular to bash. Is this a dialogue that goes two ways or did you just come here to tell us that you are right and we are all wrong?

The idea objective analysis of the performance of a product is that it no longer requires personal touch. An amplifier producing 10 watts vs 200 watts that another produces is a fact. You don't need to be present, own the amp, run it, etc. to know if that is a fact or not.  You look at measurements and see the data.  So the notion that only people who can have an opinion about a product are those that own or used one is no sequitur. 

You seem to be used to people making up imaginary characteristics for audio which only they can experience by playing with such gear.  To the extent the facts like this cannot be verified or depended on, then there is no there there. 

BTW, the above attitude did not seem to matter to you signed up into ASR to say that the Audioquest Go-4 cable is too old to sound good even though you had not heard it.  And the fact that the cable was introduced 7 years ago.

You went on to say that there has been amazing advancements on cable technology as to make that obsolete.  And that I and others should abuse return privileges from dealers to keep borrowing cables and returning them. I responded to you that none of this made sense and that it would violate my ethical standard to borrow cables like this.

You then kept posting and posting with nary a single back up research, engineering, etc.  Folks eventually got tired of wasting time and ban came.  You are welcome to show up and lecture us but make sure you are sharing reliable knowledge and not just claims and chatter. 

Finally, if getting banned is a loss to you, then I suggest next time not jumping into a review thread and lecturing how the world turns when it comes to cables.  And keep at it for 22 posts straight.  If it is no big deal, then move along.  We are not shedding a tear and neither should you.

@kota1

@amir_asr the militia is not nonsense, ASR is not what I call a forum, non conformrity is flamed, shamed, and banned, it is a firing squad. I think you allow it because if the people paying your bills get good information from other sources it won’t be profitable for you, what do you have to say?

Non-comformity is in play every minute on ASR Forum. As I mentioned, look at every review I do and see the volume of complaints about my review. Heck we have entire threads dedicated to people just complaining about us:

As for my "bills," they don't need paying. I retired after 40 years in technology and can pay for my own bills thank you very much. I do this work because I enjoy it and gives me something rewarding to do.  Members donate money because they like the enormous amount of data and information they get on the site. Unlikely many other youtubers, I am not reliant on any incoming.  This is why there are no ads, or sponsorships on ASR forum or audio science review youtube channel.

People get themselves banned because they jump into a thread and claim to know this and that is true without an ounce of back up. "Oh my ears tell me this." Great.  Keep them to yourself. If you want to convince us, you better come with some understanding of how your ears and perception work. Then folks will listen.

And oh, don't get insulting and personal and make false accusations like what I am responding to. This, will earn a temporary or permanent ban.

@fleschler

Sure you’re professional to a point. Your testing isn’t up to par for many products including speakers and DACs you have reviewed. If you read all this forum’s posts you would know of other review sites with much more extensive testing and testing parameters. I want more data, not less.

Oh yes, there are people who push a button on batch script in the audio analyzer and produce 100 graphs. I call them measurebators: measuring for the sake of measuring. Measurements that don’t provide additional insight into the performance of a product are of no value to me. I much rather test 100 speakers than to test 10 and produce 10 times more graphs just to impress folks like you.

I test some 150 speakers a year. Full anechoic response together with distortion and listening tests. The data is state of the art and verified for accuracy by a number of major companies. If this is not good enough for you, no problem. Just know that without me doing this work, you wouldn’t have any data on most of them.

Finally, what is your reference? Both Soundstage and Stereophile produce a subset of my tests. Their speakers tests are much less accurate and non-standard compliant to boot.

@fleschler

@amir_asr No, you don't use terms like snake oil and fraud, your minions do. 

Minions? How is right for you to use such derogatory term about ASR members yet you are outraged when they term a product those names? 

You creating animosity for no good reason. How does this advance understanding of audio technology and performance?  Why can't you say your "members" speak that way? Is it too hard to be professional?

And what you would you like them to say when I test a S/PDIF cable for $1,500 and does nothing more than a $20 video cable I use? They are supposed to smile and say, "good for them?" You get to be outraged about people on a forum but they should not about such high cost for a commodity performance cable?

@kota1 Your previous 4 posts would have earned you a permanent ban on ASR forums. I had a similar attitude to yours on the ASR forums earlier this year. I got permanently banned without warning. 

I found the ASR thread mentioning this Audiogon thread. As expected ASR view themselves as the gatekeepers of truth. And they view Audiogon as delusional snobs with expensive cables. I don't think that either side will change their stances and find compromises.

I question why Amir chose to interact with this thread. He could just stay quiet and preserve his moral high-ground on ASR. If anything, Amir is "lowering himself to Audiogon's level". He is god (on ASR forums). 

My dream is that someday ASR will bring an impressive and affordable system to Audiogon for people to enjoy. I just think that members on Audiogon want to be impressed with good sound, not schooled with "measurements and facts". Our ears cannot interpret an image of a graph and generate music that way. Ultimately, Audiogon members live in the physical realm. ASR members live in the theoretical realm. The two realms can converge on a venn diagram. Let's make that happen.

I mentionned this idea to ASR members on the ASR forum. I was basically laughed at. The ASR reference system is 100% theoretical. Picture target frequency response curves. Hey, I'm of the opinion that a pair of speakers is better than no speakers. But I'm delusional according to ASR. 

"My hi-fi system is so great, it's out of this world. No really, it doesn't exist. You cannot listen to it." 

@fleschler, I think amir-asr just did a drive by, we will see if he responds to my question about his business.

@amir_asr No, you don't use terms like snake oil and fraud, your minions do.  Just read today's new forum against Audiogon, audiophiles and expensive equipment Audiogon thread critical of ASR.   There's the proof in 100+ posts.  

Sure you're professional to a point.  Your testing isn't up to par for many products including speakers and DACs you have reviewed.   If you read all this forum's posts you would know of other review sites with much more extensive testing and testing parameters.  I want more data, not less.  

Your $20,000 DAC measured poorly.   Yet, there are many DACs that are expensive that measure quite well.   The sound differences are very significant.  Not all DACs are made or measure alike.  You got a bad one (design-wise).   Now one knows which one it is.   I guess we would find out by listening to it, huh?   

@amir_asr the militia is not nonsense, ASR is not what I call a forum, non conformrity is flamed, shamed, and banned, it is a firing squad. I think you allow it because if the people paying your bills get good information from other sources it won’t be profitable for you, what do you have to say?

Okay Amir, obviously you are trying to compare the finite with the infinite.  Plumbing equipment can be tested for their intended purchase, absolutely, just as aviation equipment must be tested and retested and hopefully not modified due to in flight failures.  So your plumbing analogy is wrong and made to sound stupid as a comparison.

Sound and music are infinite.  Hence, even the most exacting computer modeling of the most expensive concert halls results in failures.   The Elbphilharmonie in Germany is that $850 million hall.  The truth is that shoebox configured halls that seat under 2,000 people sound best and used zero computer modeling from the 19th and 20th centuries.  

I want audiophiles to use common sense and logic by learning to listen to sound and music, not just use measurements as their guide.   

I have friends with $500k to $1M audio systems.   I wouldn't own their systems.  They are pleased with them (one I now enjoy listening to).  However, the $1M audio system owner is constantly changing equipment because he is unsatisfied with it.  There are parts of their high end systems that I like.  The $1M system owner dumped $68,000 in High Fidelity cables and purchased GroverHuffman cabling for about $4,000.   After hearing the difference of course.

The $500K system owner chose to change the 6H30 tubes on his Audio Research SP 28 to 6N6 (6H6) tubes.  The result was fantastic.  He was also an electrical engineer and thought power cables were all the same despite his higher end ICs , digital and speaker cables.  He replaced all six of his Pangea power cables with GroverHuffman power cables after just lending him one power cable for his amp.  Since we live a few doors apart and enjoy a wide range of music, we visit each other and can now enjoy music together (but not prior to his major 2 changes in 2022).  

This is not an advertisement for GroverHuffman cables.  Just, one must listen to alternative equipment in one's own home to make a qualified decision, like an A/B test at a Harman Kardan factory (which is about 5 miles from me).    

@fleschler

ASR "militia" cannot differentiate the difference between biographical summary of one’s music expertise versus self-aggrandizement I am no more important than any other audiophile;

Please forgive me for being blunt but what is this "militia" nonsense? There is no single group in ASR. In every review I post (which is about one every day or so), it doesn’t take but a handful of posts before someone complains about my testing or conclusions. The membership is highly critical and does not at all behave like the caricature you are describing.

To be sure, you better expect to get push back when you make outlandish claims without proper evidence. It is no different than going to a Jazz club and insist that the band play country music. And keep getting more and more upset when they don’t and eventually throw you out of the club. This doesn’t make them a "militia" or a cult.

We, at ASR, have chosen to have a compass. That compass says we believe what we can prove. That any statement needs to have back up that is reliable. If you don’t believe in that and want to think ever random audiophile observation is as valid as another, then ASR is not a place for you. Don’t go there, get push back and banning only to complain here. It simply is not logical to do.

And please consider that my reviews are kept professional. I don’t use terms like snake oil, fraud, etc. I create data and let that speaker powerfully to the conclusions I draw. I don’t see why anyone would want less data about an audio product. Even people who send me gear that doesn’t perform well, like to see the facts. They can still choose to keep the product, or not. None remotely get upset. So how come some of you get that way?

@amir_asr, welcome to the forum, will you reciprocate and allow members here to post on your forum without instant bans because we have a wide range of opinions that may not be popular on asr as long as we are respectful?

You know, your members simply lose it if anyone likes a component that they have 0 personal experience with, but is simply popular to bash. Is this a dialogue that goes two ways or did you just come here to tell us that you are right and we are all wrong?

@fleschler

@amir_asr Either you are or are not the owner of ASR. Either way, my conclusion is based on listening results after measurement (if it can be measured-the CD trimmer can measure some characteristics prior to and post trimming by listening to the CD). Since I do not rely on measurements only, I (and all of my many music loving friends) use my listening skills to determine if audio equipment sounds more or less to my liking. Measurements can be very deceiving both in what is and what is not measured as well as the potential synergy with other equipment and listening room.

Of course it is me. Who can make as many typos as I can in a post??? 😀

As to your point, listening tests are the gold standard in audio and have more power than measurements. To get that though, you need to have your tests fully controlled and documented. Just saying  you have run this and that test that runs counter to what research and engineering tells us is of no value. You have to document and fully share the controls used to make sure you are only judging sound and results are not random guesses.

If you think measurements can be "deceiving," you have no idea how bad listening tests can be!  I can have you listen to two identical audio files and have you tell us they sound different. Indeed that has happened to me!  Only when I do a binary compare and realize they are the same that I realize how wrong I was.

To be clear, our sense are accurate. It is our brain that plays tricks on us. You have to learn this lesson. There is no better shortcut to audio truth than this. I wish there was. But there isn't.

@invalid

amir I guess you never heard the phrase you get what you pay for, of course there are exceptions to the rule, but in my experience the phrase is generally true.

Oh, of course I have. Problem is that audio marketing has gone so crazy, with people willing to accept any story behind an audio product, that the connection you talk about is long, long gone.

It is through objective testing and engineering analysis that we can figure out if you paid for fidelity, or for marketing claims.  I wish this was not the case. I wish there was transparency in audio marketing. I wish people spent more time doing controlled listening tests than to believe every random audio test. If that had happened, yes, more money could get you more fidelity.

A company recently sent me a $20,000 DAC to test. I was very appreciative that they volunteered to do that. I measure it and easily identify and implementation flaw that has long been fixed by "cheap" (but state of the art) asian audio products. The DAC weighed near 50 pounds! It was a massive beast. But it clearly had flawed engineering that was demonstrable. As a courtesy to the company I returned the product to them and didn't publish the results. My hope is that they revise it and produce a performant product. If so, then $20K is not out of  line if someone puts value beyond superb sound reproduction.

So no, your experience is not transferable. Any such conclusion means you are paying far more than you should be in audio. The only way to know is to have data otherwise

Okay Amir (if that's ASR's Amir), I also happen to be a beta tester of audio cables for a boutique manufacturer (GroverHuffman.com) for over two decades.  No, it is a subjective test after burning in cables and hearing other manufacturers high end/expensive cables (some, not all obviously).  No, we do not use controlled listening rooms or test equipment.  So, his business model is based on his electrical engineering experience of almost 60 years.  He is also successful with world wide distribution.  His problem is that he charges too little to satisfy many high end audio equipment owners as his cables lack the prestige of ownership (versus Nordost, Transparent, Siltech, Synergistic Research, Shunyata, etc).  I find fault with many "high end" equipment owners who base purchases on price rather than value (musical).   He has loaned cables for use at audio shows in high end systems where they just trounced the other known high end cables (High Fidelity cables being the absolute worst-luckily now defunct).   I've heard many cables which sound great in high end systems as well, with very high price tags (such as Masterbuilt cables used to demonstrate Von Schweikert speakers).  I've even chosen a Synergistic Research high end digital cable over his ($200-great value) but at substantially higher price after auditioning half a dozen.   

So, I don't have the hubris of being a golden eared reviewer of equipment or tweaks but I do have ample experience in listening/experiencing sound (and music) to be considered a critical listener.  I have friends who are superior to me in their critical listening capabilities who are well known (one a producer, another a producer/remastering engineer and lastly my electrical engineer friend who built every type of cable as a business and many types of tube equipment that measures closer to solid state than old tube sounding gear (he also owns a patent he wrote/submitted himself) on cable manufacturing.   

In other words, I trust what I hear more than I trust measurements.  Measurements are helpful, hearing is believing (and everyone hears differently).   

@fleschler 

@invalid BINGO!!!

I was a commercial property appraiser (to be distinguished from residential) for 32 years, constructed apartment buildings and single family tract homes.  I chose/use higher quality materials in low income housing to prevent future repair expenses and the safety of my tenants.  I use higher quality all brass plumbing fixtures and fittings,  only schedule L US or Mexican manufactured copper plumbing and best quality fittings, Bradford-White water heaters, Wilkins water pressure regulators, etc. as an example.  Sure, Loews has cheaper plumbing items, but you get what you pay for-expect plumbing failures sooner (a few years) rather than in decades later (w.h. exceptions since they only last 6 years now).  

If plumbing was judged like how audio is, you would be using paper for pipes, candles to heat water, little dots around water heater to increase its efficiency, magic tablets to add to water to cure every disease made to man. And have even a simple pipe coupling cost $2,000 because it was made out of this or that metal with cryogenic treatment!

My wish is that audiophiles bring the common sense and logic they use in other fields to their hobby. If the above sounds absurd in plumbing, similar talk for audio should do the same.

@td_dayton

@amir_asr cool of you to show up. i have a question - would you say that "if

[insert audiophile claim] can't be measured by my tests, it doesn't exist" is a fair description of your view? why or why not? 

Let me first tell you that there is far more to conclusions we draw than measurements. Myself and many members of the forum are engineers and understand how your audio devices operate.  We then combine this with careful measurements.  And then look at what audio research (published) tells us.  If all three arrows point the same way across testing multiple categories of products, then we have very high confidence in our conclusions as to efficacy of such claims.

As an example of above, we know how power supplies work in audio products. So when someone says this power cable "filters" noise that then does the same in your audio output, we can analyze this on all fronts. We know that there are multiple filters working far more effectively in your audio gear than anything a power cable (or conditioner) can do.  We then combine that knowledge by showing that said power cable provided no filtering. And even the company itself showed no such evidence. We then go further and produce highly distorted AC waveform and show that the audio gear did its job and nothing changed in its output.  After testing a number of such products with the same outcome, we then have a very high confidence answer with strong data to back it.

Please note that this is VERY different than what other objectivists do. I put in tons and tons of effort in testing these audiophile claims. I have tested more interconnects and power conditioners than I can keep track of. And when a new one is offered to me, I test it again in the thought that it may be the one that shows a difference. This should show you the openness I bring to this field. There is nothing "cult-like" about what we do.

Note that there situations where measurements provide part of the answer but not all. Speaker and headphone measurements are very powerful in their predictive power but not sufficient. We don't for example fully know the effect of radiation patter for a speaker in different rooms and for different people. Measurements do however rule out the poor designs and do so with authority. Maybe some of those are still good but there are so many good choices with good engineering so why take a chance?

I recently recommended an IEM. A bunch of people purchased it. About 70% love it and can't imagine how great this $50 IEM is. 10% to 15% say it sounds good but better with EQ. 10 to 15% say it is not for them.  This shows how powerful imperfect or incomplete measurements can still be. 

Adding on to above, post, I have zero skills in recording, mixing and mastering music. In those domains, your experience blows me out of water.  So there is no attempt to put that experience down in the slightest. It is just that it doesn't apply to the topic at hand (reproducing of recorded music as opposed to creating it).

@fleschler

ASR "militia" cannot differentiate the difference between biographical summary of one’s music expertise versus self-aggrandizement I am no more important than any other audiophile; however, music experience as an amateur recording engineer in major orchestral halls of well over 250 recordings and for the Erich Zeisl (brother in law of Schoenberg) centenary collection of 11 CDs for Vienna, UCLA and USC establish some credentials that my opinion in how vocal, chamber and orchestral music can (not should) sound is evident. I do not have a "golden ear." I just have a lifetime of experience performing and recording/mastering music.

This is a common retort.  That you have been either producing music for many years or an audiophile for the same and hence your impressions are correct.  Fact is that none of this trains you to a) be a critical listener and b) make your listening tests reliable.  This is not only position of audio research but also my personal professional experience.  In my last corporate job, we performed controlled listening tests of hundreds of audiophiles and sadly, they way underperformed our trained testers in hearing compression artifacts.

Research work would be so much easier if we could just recruit people like you and render an opinion about sound fidelity with no controls. But it is not. The only way we know you speak the "truth" about fidelity is to block all other stimulus than the sound arriving at your ear.  And further, repeat observations many times to rule out chance. Nothing replaces this.  Every shortcut to that is prone to serious faults.

This is an uncomfortable truth for many of us. After all, we call ourselves audiophiles with the intent of saying we know what good sound is like. But it is the nature of how we behave as humans.

You can argue with this and create your own domain of audio not based on realities of decades of research. That is fine. But please don't throw rocks at me at ASR or the membership for using proper science and research as compass of what is right.

@amir_asr cool of you to show up. i have a question - would you say that "if

[insert audiophile claim] can't be measured by my tests, it doesn't exist" is a fair description of your view? why or why not? 

@milpai  Every night I get to listen to music for 2 hours prior to bedtime.  Yesterday, I listened with friends for 4 hours.   My main audio system is so addictive and I have 42,500 LPs/CD/78s that I look forward to listening whenever I have a chance.  I am retired from my profession and only work about 20 hours weekly as an investor/manager.  I also take care of my family until it's music listening time late at night.  

I had some time to see my forum posts today so I added rejoiners.  My other forums over the past 20+ years only received no or up to four replies.   I obviously hit a nerve and this forum is probably the most popular of September.   I am concerned that ASR may have a physically violent "militia" although it is more likely that they just have much free time and personal angst they have to relieve themselves by posting on ASR, so often and often negatively.  

@invalid BINGO!!!

I was a commercial property appraiser (to be distinguished from residential) for 32 years, constructed apartment buildings and single family tract homes.  I chose/use higher quality materials in low income housing to prevent future repair expenses and the safety of my tenants.  I use higher quality all brass plumbing fixtures and fittings,  only schedule L US or Mexican manufactured copper plumbing and best quality fittings, Bradford-White water heaters, Wilkins water pressure regulators, etc. as an example.  Sure, Loews has cheaper plumbing items, but you get what you pay for-expect plumbing failures sooner (a few years) rather than in decades later (w.h. exceptions since they only last 6 years now).  

@decooney , I was not even aware of Soulnote. Seems to be focused in Europe.

@fleschler sometimes it is better to move on and not have the urge to respond. Hope you are having a great time with your music!

amir I guess you never heard the phrase you get what you pay for, of course there are exceptions to the rule, but in my experience the phrase is generally true.

@amir_asr Either you are or are not the owner of ASR. Either way, my conclusion is based on listening results after measurement (if it can be measured-the CD trimmer can measure some characteristics prior to and post trimming by listening to the CD). Since I do not rely on measurements only, I (and all of my many music loving friends) use my listening skills to determine if audio equipment sounds more or less to my liking. Measurements can be very deceiving both in what is and what is not measured as well as the potential synergy with other equipment and listening room.

The best test of audio equipment is to place it in the room and with the equipment it is to be used with. Aside from that, measurements and physical inspection of audio equipment can provide a basis for comparison and evaluation (such as will it more or less likely to fail in use). It goes without comment that different power ratings of amps and bass capabilities of speakers vary by design and parts quality which can result in lower or higher cost to manufacture.  Unfortunately, just as with so many other products (non-audio) on the market, you don't always receive what one pays for.  There are many shoddy expensive goods in many product categories.  That does not mean everything deemed "too" expensive is bad.  

ASR "militia" cannot differentiate the difference between biographical summary of one’s music expertise versus self-aggrandizement I am no more important than any other audiophile; however, music experience as an amateur recording engineer in major orchestral halls of well over 250 recordings and for the Erich Zeisl (brother in law of Schoenberg) centenary collection of 11 CDs for Vienna, UCLA and USC establish some credentials that my opinion in how vocal, chamber and orchestral music can (not should) sound is evident. I do not have a "golden ear." I just have a lifetime of experience performing and recording/mastering music.

When I conclude that each individual should not rely on measurements only, I am asserting that each piece of equipment should be tested for it’s musical value (not economic) in a specific room with specific equipment. ASR members laugh at anything outside of their sphere of experience and make derogatory remarks of someone’s character if they disagree with neutral statements concerning equipment or experience. If that is you Amir, owner of ASR, you know this to be true.

@fleschler

"Audiophiles are Snobs"  Youtube features an idiot!  He states, with no equivocation,  that $5,000 and $10,000 speakers sound equally good and a $500 and $5,000 integrated amp sound equally good.  He is either deaf or a liar or both! 

By now I hope everyone fully understands that OP got me confused with another youtuber (John Darko). He is the one that produced the video with that clickbait title, I did NOT.

As to the rest, price has no impact on whether something "sounds good" or not. As the risk of stating the obvious, I can make a speaker out of gold and charge a million dollars for it.  It doesn't mean it will sound better. So the example of $5000 speaker vs $10,000 is without meaning in audio.  Products in that price range start to get into luxury range and are often priced to what the market will accept, not what it costs to produce, etc.

A speaker will sound better than another if in controlled testing it shows that advantage, i.e. when you don't know the brand, make, history, looks, etc.  Just the sound.  Failing that, we can use measurements to rule out broken designs and praise the well engineered ones based on latest science of sound reproduction in rooms.

As a general statement though, a speaker that goes lower and plays louder will be more expensive.  So all else being equal, a $10,000 will be better than a $5,000 speaker in this regard.  This is why  I own a pair of speakers that cost $23,000.  It plays extremely low and dynamic in addition to being excellent in other respects.

The example of amps is also dead wrong. An amplifier can sound horrible if it runs out of power.  Or have audible hiss that is annoying.  Sadly you can get a $5,000 amp that is very low power and hence clips. And or have audible artifacts.  Or it can be superb with all the power you need.  The only way you know is again, using controlled listening tests or measurements.  Random opinion by Joe poster online or youtuber may not apply I am afraid.

@thyname Thank you for your concern. I haven’t spent much time on this forum and my metal well-being isn’t being threatened. I am a very stable 66 year old music lover. I’ve been a member since 2001.

However, your warning that ASR militia can be possibly dangerous, does that mean physically violent? That means that this bear (ASR) is a radical leftist or rightist group who political affiliation is measurement audiophilia uber alles? Wow!

Now I remember that one member had claimed in another ASR forum that he wanted to go next door and burn his neighbor.   I assumed that burning one's neighbor is a violent act.   He is a well known member.

I also just noticed that someone just signed up to audiogon posting as amir_asr. Could that be the owner of ASR? That is scary!

Someone claimed that on ASR the more you donate, the higher your status. No such thing exists.  Members can donate any amount of money they like.  They will all get the same title. This is on purpose as to make sure you can't buy your way into have more privileges.

Unlike other forums, donating to ASR doesn't get you anything extra *. You don't get exclusive or early access to content.  Everyone sees the same information regardless of whether they have donated or not. Donations are entirely voluntary.

* The only exception to above is that forum donors get to have longer edit time to their threads. This is because we trust them to not be destructive.  It is not done to give them a benefit.

@fleschler

Have any of audiogon (or any other reasonable audio forum site) posters encountered this horrible group of miscreants?  

 

No, I just got here.  😁

I'm just happy I came across that article demonstrating the fallacy of believing static measurements is all there is to know, and needed. 

Three things:

1. The stimulus is not static. A sine wave is time varying.  A multitone is time varying and complex.  Jitter signal (J-test) is also complex and time varying.  Only DC signals are static which we don't use for audio testing.

2. For the most part, audio gear is state and memory less. The system performance doesn't change or rely on what came 1 second before current time.  In that regard, "static" testing of this sort is quite appropriate.

When testing systems that do have memory such as lossy audio compression (e.g. MP3), we cannot use this type of testing because they do have memory and adapt to signal to being encoded.  There, we rely on controlled/blind listening tests.

3. I also using music files for such things as null tests of power cables and such.  This is more done to do away with objections like yours more than being a need.

Hey guys,

I'm just happy I came across that article demonstrating the fallacy of believing static measurements is all there is to know, and needed. Kind of reminds me of when Apple came out with those "moving" still images taken on an iPhone. When you took a photo, it was actually a very short video and when viewed, gave life to that photo that it never really could capture as a still image.

All the best,
Nonoise

Interesting. From the SOULNOTE site, a little more on their philosophy.  Some of them apparently came from the original Marantz crew, quote -

"Soulnote believes dynamic performance keeping accuracy of the original waveform on the time axis as the most important for music playback, which is, however, still unmeasurable by any of the conventional methods. At Soulnote, only listening dominates the determination and improvement of circuit, selection of parts and mechanical construction. This approach is a kind of antithesis against the supremacy of static performance."

 

@nonoise superb read, appreciate you posting that 

"If you can’t measure it then it’s placebo effect". I have an opinion, you have an opinion, can we measure these opinions, yes, are they the same, no. You can measure everything, doesn't mean we all like the same result.

@nonoise very good article and I am also intrigued by the Soulnote product. Very relatable article, thank you for posting the link.

@nonoise : +1. Fantastic article. Things we all know, but unable to articulate so decisively and eloquently, albeit still in down to earth, common folks speak

@fleschler : please give this whole thing up. This entire thing is not worth your time, and mental well-being. Engaging with the ASR militia is not only unproductive, but also outright dangerous. Trust me

sam_adams of ASR finally figured it out it was me.  Of course he took what I posted there out of context.   Shaving CDs, tried it and don't use it.  Paid $150, now selling above $1000.  Destat CDs, every time.   Synergistic Research cables-I never said they had magical properties but ASR members think that the company is committing fraud on the public and Ted Denney has committed a crime and should be imprisoned.   

And tmtmoh states that someone on this forum said that $500 and $1000 speakers sound the same (NOT).   That we believe in audio myths.   How many times did I post that measurements are important and can reveal a significant amount of the performance of equipment?   Yet, this counter forum states that we at Audiogon don't believe in measurements.   Ha Ha.  I'm getting a little thrill at poking fun at the miscreants of ASR (they hate that word-sorry).  Plus, they don't read all of this forum, just a few posts. 

By coincidence, I came upon this while reading up on new reviews by the designer of Soulnote products.

All the best,
Nonoise

Just the other day, I stumbled upon an interview with Amir.

Pass makes distortion machines.

That was enough for me.

@laoman Yes, you reiterated my reason for creating this forum. My wife said i shouldn’t have called @quiiet a troll, but it there some other word for someone who signs up to Audiogon and denounces the rest of us? Now there is a 5 page 95 replies to ASRs Audiogon thread critical of ASR. They’re so stupid that they don’t recognize the person (me) who got banned after reading this forum. I really can’t be nicer to them. I note that the two ASR members who wrote about vibration isolation for amps and Von Schwiekert speakers did not chime in. Some respectful and logical ASR members there.

Your comment about @noske is appropriate. He started character assassination of @jerryg123  Now after @kota1   Not Nice!   Apparently has his own character problems wherein he is obsessed with demeaning others to assert his superiority.

Ok, I may be an audiophile and a snob. And I still enjoy listening to music on my system. 

@laoman

Thanks for the link.

Yes, it was an interesting read.

No doubt there is a crossover of readership between the 2 sites and why not?

Amir himself has stated that measurements currently only account for 70% in predicting how a loudspeaker sounds.

It’s that remaining 30% that should keep us all going for a few years yet.

What measurement is there that will predict how a given group of components will interact with my room, my senses, and my content selection all at the same time?

Good luck with that much, and I didn’t even mention how it will please the personal taste of all listeners in the room simultaneously.

@invalid Yes, this is how science works. ASR and followers write off observations phase by the claim our senses faulty. Which means present measurement protocol is end game. Don't expect ASR to come up with new measurement protocols, this will come from manufacturers who listen (observe) to their equipment and ask themselves how can I make this better.

@elangley01

Jitter wasn’t measurable once upon a time, but it was definitely heard. Observation is why we have measurements.