Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.
For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.
Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.
If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.
So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?
IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.
Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!
I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.
Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.
I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).
I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:
over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.
Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).
I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges. The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.
First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.
Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.
Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!
Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.
When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).
I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.
Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.
So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.
All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.
I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!
You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.
All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.
Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:
first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.
we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.
we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).
I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.
I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.
I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.
Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.
I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.
All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.
Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.
Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.
Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs. Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.
I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft. All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm. Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.
Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.
What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.
The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!
IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.
This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.
Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””
Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!
There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for. These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.
Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones
I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.
If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:
Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.
There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.
The other ones are very good too but less refined ones. I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers. I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.
What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.
Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.
Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.
I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.
Dear @chakster : You don't have to live with that set up if you don't want it. Let me explain it.
In those times I made the tonearm/cartridge set up with the protractor I had on hand ( maybe DB one or other, I can't remember. ) because I never had the original as you have. In tIhose times almost no one took really care about accuracy on that kind of set up.
Now, I don't know for surethe reasons Sony choosed that special set up but you know you can change it and I think it will be better if you do it.
Comparing the Sony set up parameters against Löfgren A ( Baerwald ) this one ( by numbers. ) outperforms the Sony one:
Sony average dist. %: 0.536 vs 0.405 in L A. "" Max. dist.: 0.965 vs 0.536
tracking error 2.81° vs 1.81°
As always, an accurate set up makes a difference with any choosed gemoetry set up. You can try the Löfgren A and decide about.
Btw, you need to test your Sony tonearm and cartridge combination with other headshells and of course make changes in the headshell wires and tonearm internal cables. The tonearm deserves it and of course the MUSIC.
The jump from mm to mc requires a significant investment in both turntable and system.
Believe it or not, but some of us returned to the vintage MMs (say $300-900) from the very expensive MCs (up to $4500, not to count the SUTs etc) with no regret and no loss in sound quality.
A statement devoid of explanation or scientific fact.
Really? A decent moving magnet cart can cost as little as $40 and a good one as little as $100.
If I'm just getting into vinyl and I have a $100 turntable and a bottom of the line Onkyo A/V receiver that has a phono input and a pair of cheap speakers let's say, some used bookshelf speakers that cost $50...or even some new Polk Audio T-15 bookshelf speakers.
What good is a moving coil cart costing $500 (cheapest I could find) going to do me?
So now you add a complete and detailed description and pricing of a system which was totally missing in your first generalised statement.... My former system of Rega Planar 3/Hadcock GH-228/Garrott P77 and Kebschull preamp with inbuilt phonostage for both MM and MC required zero investment to "turntable and system" when I moved to a series of MC cartridges over 20 years ago.
Your original statement proclaims the word "jump" as a descriptor for MC against the supposedly 'lower' MM and as such is false. Many turntables and systems may benefit from "significant investment" regardless of, and independent from, their choices of cartridge types.
I reread your post and see your point a little clearer. Your point is only about cost, not sound.
The point the guys were making, and the point of Raul's original post, is that our MM/MI's are, with very good turntables and arms, the equal, and many times, better than the expensive MC's, with there rising unnatural high end. Some like it some don't.
Yes, your example is a no brainer because, you would need to get a better turntable and phono amp to see any improvement in an upgraded cartridge of any type. I believe Schubert likes the Shure 97 for cheap. Maybe he will give the exact number as I am to lazy to research it.
We, "the hardcore hobbyist" are saying that MM/MI's are not only for cheap setups, but can play with the big boys, therefor you got negative responses.
I have a selection of MM, MI and (one) MC cartridges. I play 45s using a Shure V15 Vxmr with the brush down to ensure rock solid tracking since I can't clamp them as effectively as LPs. Yes these are vinyl 45s not styrene so no fear I am chewing any of the 45s. I hate mistracking so
with the Shure
I gave up a little on other sonic attributes to minimize it with the 45s.
Anyway I got a retip last year from Soundsmith with their optimized line contact (OLC) stylus. After breaking in I couldn't believe the transformation as the Shure became more dynamic and lively, almost a different cartridge. I was so impressed that I left it on to test it with LPs as well and the effect was maintained there too.
Has anyone tried the Soundsmith OLC retip with this or other Shures? What changes did you note? Thanks
From extensive experience, Ortofon 2M Black is without doubt the best sounding MM cartridge. Very few MC cartridges can rival it and they just give a somewhat alternate flavor, not necessarily a better sound. My favorite cartridges at any price are:
1.) Ortofon 2M Black 2.) Audio Technica AT-OC9 II/III 3.) Ortofon Quintet Black S
I think you are overrated this 2M Black, seriously, it's nothing special in my opition and definitely not the best souding MM for sure, a friend purchased vintage Stanton 881s mk2 (Stereohedron) from me to replace this 2M Black and it was a huge improvement over the 2M. Not sure which cartridges have you already tried, but you'd better try vintage models to beat everything you have mentioned in your list above. I would add some serious contenders: Grace Level II BR MR, Grace F-9F, Pioneer PC-1000mk2, Audio-Technica AT-ML 170 and AT-ML180, Glanz MF61, Stanton CS-100 WOS, Joseph Grado Signature XTZ ... All those are discontinued models, very rare, but these are the real killer MM cartridges, probably the best ever made. So if you think the 2M Black is the best MM then you should try a better cartridges for sure. That 2M has never been mentioned as something special in this thread, but the others have been mentioned by many users. I have tried and still own all of them and very happy about the sound on 6 different tonearms. Do you believe that modern MM can compete with vintage MM cartridges?
P.S. I also enjoy the original Garrott P77 which is amazing cartridge when loaded at 100k Ohms.
invictus, I believe you left something out of your statement, "Ortofon 2M Black is without doubt the best sounding MM cartridge". It should have been preceded by "In my opinion . . ."
Anyone who has been in this hobby very long knows there is no universal best component of any type. Individual tastes are simply too varied and systems too different for such an all-encompassing statement.
Even chakster's list (which I respect based upon his many thoughtful posts) cannot be considered to be exclusive. A simple review of just a few of the 249 pages here should prove how varied our opinions and recommendations can be. So yes, there is some doubt. ;^)
Perhaps I included too much information as my only question concerned retipping the Shure Vxmr I had via Soundsmith and my surprise at the change thereto. But I wanted to provide some context. One thing I left out is that SS also provided a boron cantilever from some unspecified new source. So the sonic changes may be due to stylus or cantilever or both.
As for your reply thanks, but I wrote that I could not clamp 45s As Effectively as LPs, not that I couldn't clamp them at all. I have a 45 clamp but the reflex clamp I have for LPs is too big and it is not possible to use an edge clamp either.
SHURE ULTRA 500 sounds great everywhere, quote from David (dlaloum, a Shure specialist). After nearly thirty years´ experience I couldn´t agree more. And hard to outperform, for any cartridge.
It's my absolute favorite MM from current production of cartridges.
I see, unfortunately modern MM cartridges are not the best or very expensive, except maybe for the current production Garrott MM cartridges from Australia.
But they are practically impossible to find for normal people
I'm normal, but i have a few spares of AT-ML170 VM OFC from the late 80's, so not really impossible to find, but still very rare.
I think it’s pretty easy to find Raul’s list earlier in this thread and he’s definitely much more experienced than me in this aspect. I have learned a lot from this thread years ago and i did tried many of the recommended cartridges. It was some sort of "the cartridge of the month" everytime, lol. I have not tried the highly regarded Signet and Precept top of the line MM models, also the Sonus Dimension 5 or Shure Ultra series. Don’t know of any other MM/MI cartridge i have missed here. The AT-ML170 and AT-ML180 did everything right to my ears along with the other cartridges i have already mentioned several times.
I’m waiting for a few mega rare models from well know brands, fingers crossed, it’s hard to google anything about them.
P.S. I do not listen to digital (in my system) at all, so it’s all about vinyl passion.
Chakster, want to sell me one for a reasonable fair price?
Maybe i will regret it, but i can sell one of my spare Audio-Technica AT-ML170 / OFC cartridge. This model was made in Japan in 1988. The Absolute Sound (TAS) magazine thought it was the best MM cartridge ever made (see issue 72). They are extremely rare! For me it was hard to decide which one should go. I have not detected any difference in sound quality between my 3 samples (here is a picture), all 3 are amazing cartridges in superb condition, just listed one on fleabay to see what is the reasonable price.
Since making my initial 2M Black comments, I finished reading this super long thread (looks like Raul prefers modern Clearaudio MMs over vintage in the end) and have recently personally sampled several vintage cartridges listed throughout.
Vintage MMs have nothing on modern cartridges. And yes, I prefer the sound of a good MM over good MC.
I will now definitively state, in my opinion, Ortofon 2M Black is without doubt the best sounding cartridge ever made.
It is the closest sound to a master reel to reel tape that I have ever heard.
Ortofon M20FL Super and B&O MMC2 to name a few. I've tried 100K, but do not prefer it. It makes the sound brighter, which is not what I like most of the time, but I can see it working in some cases.
Chakster, Per your post of 6/21/17, I would take issue with some of the cartridges you chose to place on your "best ever" list. For example, many believe that the Stanton CS100 is not even the best vintage Stanton cartridge. But my point is that we should all keep in mind our own fallibility and biases as judges, the fact that there are probably many dozens of cartridges manufactured over the last 30-40 years that could legitimately lay claim to a place on a "best of" list, the effects of loading on the cartridge response, the interaction between the cartridge and headshell, tonearm, phono circuit, and the vital importance of context. In other words, none of us knows what we don't know. I follow the "love the one your with" philosophy. The cartridge I am listening to that week or that month is always "my favorite".
Is it true that Raul now favors modern Clearaudio MMs, when he even bothers to listen to an MM? I thought we/he clearly established a few years ago that at least one of their rather expensive MMs was nothing but a re-badged version of a rather cheap cartridge made by another company. I don't recall the vital details.
Chakster, Per your post of 6/21/17, I would take issue with some of the cartridges you chose to place on your "best ever" list. For example, many believe that the Stanton CS100 is not even the best vintage Stanton cartridge. But my point is that we should all keep in mind our own fallibility and biases as judges, the fact that there are probably many dozens of cartridges manufactured over the last 30-40 years that could legitimately lay claim to a place on a "best of" list, the effects of loading on the cartridge response, the interaction between the cartridge and headshell, tonearm, phono circuit, and the vital importance of context. In other words, none of us knows what we don't know. I follow the "love the one your with" philosophy. The cartridge I am listening to that week or that month is always "my favorite".
Is it true that Raul now favors modern Clearaudio MMs, when he even bothers to listen to an MM? I thought we/he clearly established a few years ago that at least one of their rather expensive MMs was nothing but a re-badged version of a rather cheap cartridge made by another company. I don't recall the vital details.
Chakster, Per your post of 6/21/17, I would take issue with some of the cartridges you chose to place on your "best ever" list. For example, many believe that the Stanton CS100 is not even the best vintage Stanton cartridge. But my point is that we should all keep in mind our own fallibility and biases as judges, the fact that there are probably many dozens of cartridges manufactured over the last 30-40 years that could legitimately lay claim to a place on a "best of" list, the effects of loading on the cartridge response, the interaction between the cartridge and headshell, tonearm, phono circuit, and the vital importance of context. In other words, none of us knows what we don't know. I follow the "love the one your with" philosophy. The cartridge I am listening to that week or that month is always "my favorite".
Is it true that Raul now favors modern Clearaudio MMs, when he even bothers to listen to an MM? I thought we/he clearly established a few years ago that at least one of their rather expensive MMs was nothing but a re-badged version of a rather cheap cartridge made by another company. I don't recall the vital details.
Chakster, Per your post of 6/21/17, I would take issue with some of the cartridges you chose to place on your "best ever" list. For example, many believe that the Stanton CS100 is not even the best vintage Stanton cartridge. But my point is that we should all keep in mind our own fallibility and biases as judges, the fact that there are probably many dozens of cartridges manufactured over the last 30-40 years that could legitimately lay claim to a place on a "best of" list, the effects of loading on the cartridge response, the interaction between the cartridge and headshell, tonearm, phono circuit, and the vital importance of context. In other words, none of us knows what we don't know. I follow the "love the one your with" philosophy. The cartridge I am listening to that week or that month is always "my favorite".
Is it true that Raul now favors modern Clearaudio MMs, when he even bothers to listen to an MM? I thought we/he clearly established a few years ago that at least one of their rather expensive MMs was nothing but a re-badged version of a rather cheap cartridge made by another company. I don't recall the vital details.
All Clearaudio MM cartridges are modified Audio Technicas in wood bodies. The new Mobile Fidelity MM cartridges are also Audio Technicas in special aluminum/plastic bodies.
This is why I don't bother with them. If I want Audio Technica, I just get the real deal. The newish AT150Sa is fabulous.
Dear @lewm : I think there is a mix-up down the Clearaudio cartridges.
In those time I " fall in love " with the Virtuoso black wood body that was and is manufactured by Audio Technica.
Today is it a good performer?, yes it's a good one but several vintage MM cartridges and LOMC ones are very good too inside that " context " you are talking about.
Chakster, Per your post of 6/21/17, I would take issue with some of the cartridges you chose to place on your "best ever" list. For example, many believe that the Stanton CS100 is not even the best vintage Stanton cartridge.
In my opinion the CS-100 WOS (signature reries) is way different from some other best Stanton carts i have owned. CS-100 has the most involving sound presentation, technically it was many unique features such as sapphire coated cantilever (which is looks like ruby coated). This CS-100 cartridge is way superior to Stanton 980 LZS and Stanton 881S mk2. I woner all 3 on hands at the same time and CS-100 is the best. For me it's a keeper (luckily i have nos spare stylus). I would group together the CS-100 and Pioneer PC-1000mk2. i can listen music with them forever, just some how they sound. Of course it is just my opinion, but i do not change my favorite list every month, but i can add some gems to the favorite list when i discover something interesting. Currently got some very interesting and obscure model on hands which is a prime contender to add in my top (will report later).
Dear @chakster : As @lewm pointed out all depends on the " context " we listen and in that context is critical the real validity that has each one of us test comparison process.
I had at the same time the CS, 981LZ, 981HZ and the best quality performer cartridge was and is the 981HZ with the Pickering latest stereohedron stylus ( in theory the same as in the 981 top ones. ). I sold the CS100, it's not at top level and not only that Stanton is superior but other cartridges too. I think that it's more the " glamour " that surrounded in its time on the CS100 that its real quality level performance.
As always and for you the important subject is your ownn opinion. Don't you think?
I too own an NOS 881S mk2, a used 980 LZS (pretty much used up by me), an NOS 981LZS, and an NOS CS100. The operative phrase is "NOS", which means that I have never even unpacked the cartridges in question. The vintage Stanton that I have listened to extensively is the 980LZS, and that cartridge is exhibiting signs of being worn out or at least past its peak. Thus I am not qualified to compare the 3, but what I wrote was that there are "some" who do not regard the CS100 as the best of the Stantons. One of those is Raul. When Raul wrote about the CS100 there were others who agreed with him. (I think Raul prefers the 980HZS, among the Stantons.) Thus, I defend my statement.
My only point in mentioning the CS100 specifically was that there are lots of us out here listening to these cartridges, and due to all the variables mentioned and more that I did not think of, each of us will have his or her own list of favorite vintage MM cartridges. I am fine with the fact that the CS100 is on your particular list. Maybe I should break down and listen to mine, based on your accolades.
I would happy to buy CS-100 from you and Raul at lower price than 881s mk2 if you think CS-100 is not good :) Personally i sold 980LZS when i've checked CS-100. At the same time the Astatic MF200 and MF100 (equivalents of the Glanz MF31L and MF71L) are lower in my experience than Stanton CS-100, but those Astatic were top rated here by many, including Raul. So i trust my own ears (in my system), i would not rate the Astatic/Glanz higher than SC-100 for sure, no matter what other people stated here. The only Glanz which beat all of them is Glanz MF-61. The CS-100 is currently on my Luxman TA-1 on PD-444, but the main cartridges at the moment is Garrott P77 on Reed3p and AT-ML180 OCC on Lustre GST801.
Dear Chakster, For the second time, I did not say, and I have no basis to believe, that the CS100 is "not good". I said that some (others) don't rate it as highly as you do. This is not to say that you are not correct in your judgement, either. I have no way to know. I actually hope it is as good as you say, since I own one.
Raul entered his post 10 minutes before mine, but it was not showing up on my computer as of the time I clicked the "Post Your Response" button. Raul did say it's not top caliber, but you should indeed trust your own ears. Raul's favorite Astatic, and possibly when all is said and done his favorite MM, is the MF2500. Unfortunately, his professed admiration for that cartridge has raised its cost into the high end, too.
I really really like my Acutex LPM320STRIII and my SS re-tipped Grace Ruby.
Chackster, Lew is being fair in his responses and giving you full credit for the subjective evaluations of your cartridges. It is one of the most difficult areas of analogue high-end to equate subjective experiences of phono cartridges. There are so many variables that can affect each user's individual experiences....from turntable to tonearm to headshell to phono-stage to SUT. And a significant factor can indeed be the attention to set-up....🤗 To illustrate the point.....I have owned a vintage Sony XL-88 LOMC for several years after having owned its bigger brother, the XL-55 for even longer. The XL-55 is a romantic, ballsy cartridge which delivers delicious full-bodied images totally in contrast with todays analytical/detailed products. If one imagined the XL-88 to offer similar tonal 'house-sound'.....one would be shocked...🤔 The contrast between the two is enormous....the XL-55 is a monster...10 Gm and massive in comparison to the XL-88's 6.8 Gm diminutive stature. When I first mounted the XL-88 in one of my FR-66s tonearms on the Raven AC-2 and ran it through the Kondo SUT.....I was disappointed in its diametrically opposed presentation to the XL-55. Instead of the gutsy full-bodied bloom presented by the XL-55......a somewhat insipid and lacklustre performance relegated the XL-88 to one of my FR-5 cartridge storage boxes. Today I mounted the XL-88 in my FR-64s on the Victor TT-101 running through the Halcro MC phonostage and my jaw dropped at what I heard. This may just be the best sound I have yet heard in my system...😎 But it is a sound that remained 'undelivered' when mounted on the Raven/FR-66s/Kondo....So, absolutes are dangerous in audio and can vary enormously... that's why we usually write....YMMV 😁 Regards
No problem, but i was not impressed by XL-55 when i had Zyx Airy, it was long time ago, maybe XL-55 was slightly worn, it was a cartridge of my flat mate.
Over the years i've been looking for top vintage MM cartridges, tonearms and turntables to find a reference standard for myself. It's important to have a choce between different arms, shells etc. Now i'm more relaxed because i got some decent stuff here, if i don't want to change the cartridge quickly then it must be a good one just to enjoy the music. There are several cartridges that does not impressed me (no matter which arm etc) and to be honest i do not believe in miracles, the character of the sound are eather good or bad in the system. At least this is my principle. If the sound is not involving at all after several sessions (when evething set up correctly) i would rather look for another better quality cartridge than to mess around with minor changes i can get by changind wires, shells, settings etc. Most of my favorite cartridges impressed me from the first listening session and only countinued to impress. Luckily i have several phono stages and i can change the loading etc. I understand it's subjective, but i'm not a reviewer and never pretended to be a reviewer. I often bring my cartridges to listening sessions on different systems (with friends), even with much lower quality systems than my own system. Everyone is able to hear the difference between mediorce cartridge and top quality cartridge in the first hour (imo).
I know this information is on this thread already, and I've done my best to look through it, but there's just too much here! Could any of you point to MM cartridges that are either currently being produced, or vintage ones that are easily available that will work well with a massive arm like the Kuzma 4point that I have? I currently have a Kieski Purpleheart on it but I would love to hear what these MM's are all about. How about a Garrott P77i? TIA!
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