sdl4: interesting that you should ask about ICs. I have 3.7's and an all PS system with the BHK and ted smith gear. i am not much on shoot outs but i have a friend who has the same system and did this pretty comprehensively and ended up with the Cardas Clear Reflection. his comment to me "I auditioned 5 or 6 cables in
that $1200 to $3,000 price
range for 1m interconnects and to me I really liked not only the clarity but
also the tonal balance on this particular cable the best. I am running it
between all my components. I don't think you could go wrong with it. You
may want to look around to see if you could find a used one pair-they pop up
from time to time." i am now using them between pre and amp and between DSD and pre. really like them
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ronkent, Thanks for the helpful info! The Clear Reflection is more expensive than I planned to spend, but I might have to expand my budget if these are really great cables. I only need one pair of them for now, so that helps things stay halfway affordable. Does the Clear Reflection have a definite sonic signature or display any specific characteristics that tend to stand out compared to other ICs you've heard in your system? |
pops, It's been several decades since I last listened to any MIT cables. It looks like there aren't a lot of inexpensive options, even in the Heritage series. I'm kind of wary of the little electronic boxes that adjust the electrical characteristics of the cables, but they must do something positive or MIT wouldn't use them. Do the EVO 2 interconnects have a particular sonic signature? |
jafant, I've been reading some great comments about the Clear Beyond interconnects, but the price of a pair of 1m ICs is well beyond my budget ($3,750 retail). I've also heard positives about the Clear Cygnus, which uses some of the Clear Beyond's design principles in a more economical version ($790 retail for 1m pair). Between the Cygnus and and the Beyond is the Clear ($2,020 per 1m pair) and the Clear Reflection ($1,150 per 1m pair). The least expensive IC in the Clear series is the Clear Sky ($490 per 1m pair). I'm trying the Sky in my system right now, and it's pretty transparent so I'm noticing more detail than I'm used to. However, it does sound a bit bright and harsh on some recordings, and it also seems a little thin sounding because there seems to be greater emphasis on the high frequencies than the lower frequencies. I'm liking the shimmer on cymbals, but not the sibilance on some vocals. I may have to spend more money to get a little more fullness and naturalness on voices. The Clear Reflection may be my best option, but the Clear Cygnus may be a possibility if it has the musicality that Cardas claims. |
Sld4, The EVO’s have no sonic signature, nothing gets in the way of the music. MIT has done a good job with the heritage series with trickledown technology from their megabuck cables. They have bridged the gap between musical and resolving. I have used lots of MIT cables in the past, the EVO 2’s are the best I’ve had in my system. They are expensive however as MIT has never been bashful with their price/marketing leadership position. Their heritage series at least offers a good taste of their top cables at somewhat affordable prices. |
pops, Thanks for the additional info on the MIT EVO's! Your description sounds great, though they are somewhat expensive - at least in terms of what I'm used to. Finding the balance between musical and resolving seems to be the holy grail of cable design, and the EVO's seem to achieve that in your system. |
sdl4 - an outsider you might consider is Morrow. I ended up outfitting my studio with Morrow ICs and speaker runs. My comparisons weren't terribly extensive, but I did read widely and compare against some old Kimber, Straightwire, OCOS, Mogami, MIT, Magnum, and Audioquest, all from the 1980s. I landed at Morrow's "4" series as their cost-effective sweet spot. Morrow direct markets with periodic discount sales and a generous return policy. If you do give them a try, or if anyone else here has tried Morrow, I am interested in your reports. To my ear it meets your "relaxed, detailed and natural" criteria at a modest price. |
Whats up everyone? I pick up my mint in the box 3.7s a week from Monday. I am so excited I can't stand it. I am currently researching and getting my cables together and got a really good head start thanks to RonKent, thanks again. I really appreciate the recent cable banter above, thank you all, very informative. I have also been day dreaming about future upgrades and an email from RonKent got me thinking about and reading about sub woofers. I was just curious what the general consensus on subs was among Thiel owners, 3.7 owners in particular. How many of you 3.7 owners out there include a sub in your setup? Thanks |
Congrats bighempin! The 3.7s are truly amazing! After having many different speakers in my room, these are here to stay. I did try them with a few cables and settled on a nice beefy Straitwire. I was also running a pair of REL subs with them for a little bit, and ended up deciding I liked them better without the subs. Depending on your amp, the 3.7s can produce some really deep and dynamic and nimble bass. Also, when I first got mine they had very few hours on them and I was not entirely happy with their sound. They actually took several hundred hours of play till they reached their full sonic potential! 🙌 So, my advice is to be patient and give them ample time to fully “burn-in”, before making other major system changes. |
hi Arnie, i told him the same thing. I about had a heart attack when i first played mine as they had almost no hours on them and they sounded terrible. the 2.7's just smoked them. but after about 200 hours they kicked in and now they are stunning. curious as to which REL you had. i am running a single SHO/5 and i find it really benefits my system a great deal. Enough so that i am considering a second one. |
Hi Ron, I had a pair of REL Storm III’s and was never able to really seamlessly integrate them with the Thiels. They certainly went LOW, but always felt they blurred a bit of the bottom end detail... Perhaps because they are a ported design. Also, at 14x16 my space is small enough that the 3.7s on their own really pressurize the room well. |
tomthiel, Thanks for the suggestion about Morrow interconnects. I'll definitely look into them. I'm pretty far down the Cardas path at this point, but options are always a good thing. I've also been interested in the Iconoclast cables that are manufactured by Belkin and marketed as an audiophile product through Blue Jeans Cables. I've never heard them, but I've read very positive comments about them. |
Congrats to all you 3.7 owners! I'm still hanging in there with my 2.2's, which have become more expressive and "alive" since I started powering them with PS Audio M700 monoblocks. My search for new interconnects has also shown me that the 2.2's can take on several different personalities depending on the cables being used with them. I had been considering trying a REL or Thiel subwoofer with my speakers, but I'm now leaning against that option after appreciating the positive effects of my recent amp upgrade. I already have a Thiel SS1 sub that is blended to five Powerpoint 1.2's via a Thiel 5-channel crossover in my HT system, so I know how well that sub can blend with other speakers. However, I also really value the naturalness of having the 2.2's cover the low frequencies without adding crossovers and dividing up the bass among more drivers. If I did add a sub or two, I would definitely do it via high-level connections (like the REL or Thiel approach). The fact that my 2.2's already have decent bass and I don't listen to music with a lot of content below 30Hz makes a sub less of a necessity for me. |
Sdl4 I’ve also read about the Iconoclast speaker cables and would also be interested in hearing from anyone about them. After I had my Naim NAP300 amp updated (DR update) my system has been sounding hard and somewhat strident with my newly-purchased CS2.4s (they’re 2007 production). I’m thinking my current NAIM NACA5 speaker cables may no longer be a good match. I’m looking for a detailed but more relaxed cable and have no idea whether the new Iconoclast cables would be a good match. I’ve also heard that Tributary makes a good sounding, inexpensive well designed speaker cable and have also heard good things about Chord speaker cable. Has anyone had any experience with any of those cables? Thanks. |
A Tweaking Suggestion... I have been checking out and critically evaluating my newly-purchased CS2.4s the last few weeks. They are 2007 production so- as I do with any new purchase - I’ve been checking them out very carefully. I decided to check the tightness of the screws holding the drivers - and was surprised to find that the woofer and passive radiator screws were really loose. I don’t believe they were ever tightened since they were manufactured 20 years ago. Big improvement after tightening all the bolts! If you haven’t checked yours in awhile I’d strongly suggest doing so. |
sdl4 Thank You for posting your impressions/thoughts of the Cardas Clear Cygnus. I looked over the current offerings and thought about how the underlying silver cabling is going to sound (transparently) on Thiel loudspeakers? I, too, enjoy cabling that brings out shimmer on cymbals. Brushes on drum heads via Jazz recordings appeals to my aural experience as well. I want it so real that I could touch the skins myself. Keep auditioning and reporting your findings here. Happy Listening! |
rosami, I don't have any experience with Naim cables, but you could be right about the Thiels needing different speaker cables to perform their best. I'm still using Straight Wire Encore cables from the 1990's because I know they're a good match for my 2.2's. Several weeks back, I spoke to Jerry Willsie at Straight Wire about my Encore cables, and he said they were still a great match for my Thiels. In fact, he said he had just recommended a version of the Encore to Kathy Gornik (one of the original Thiel founders) for her Thiels. In your situation, you may want to use the lending library at the Cable Company to try a few different speaker cables. Or you could try a cable maker that has a 30 or 60-day free return policy. Tom Thiel has recommended Morrow cables. Ronkent has recommended Cardas Clear Reflection with his system. Unfortunately, speaker cables can't be selected based on the performance of interconnects of the same brand since cables typically require a different design to function well with speakers. Good luck in your search! |
The terminal spade is almost certainly rhodium over silver but the strands are copper, according to their website http://www.cardas.com/clear_beyond_sp.php BTW, I hear a more relaxed and liquid presentation with my biwire configuration compared to single cable plus jumper. Also, a bit more dimensional with a tad more clarity. |
@jafant Not sure how to answer that and I haven’t kept careful records other than I had minimum 100-200 hours on new parts before I made comparisons. Most resistors have been run for about one year (3000+ hours?) other than Tom had me replace the 30 ohm with paralleled 60 ohm for improved cooling. And each channel was built independently as I waited for the minimum break in. So, lots of variability. New caps are surely >600 hours by now, some might be past 1000. The last changes I made were the Cardas hookup wire and binding posts. The more recent channel is probably at least 400 hours. I consider everything settled at this point although was not fully confident that 200 hours was adequate for the caps. @sdl4 I am running Cardas Golden Reference. I had Neutral Reference paired with my CS1.6. When I switched to Vandersteens, I briefly used generic speaker wire (16 ga?) to decide whether to splurge for biwiring. I was able to get a good deal on used GRs. Almost sold one pair after I bought the 2.4s. My procrastination paid off! |
beetlemania, Thanks for the cable info! With regard to Cardas cables, it looks like a number of Thiel owners are using the somewhat "warmer" cables such as Golden Reference among the legacy cables or Clear Reflection among the newer "Clear" series cables. In terms of interconnects specifically, the only IC I've tried from the Clear series is Clear Sky, which is too bright in my system. For my ears, the less expensive Parsec is a better match than Clear Sky, and I would expect Clear Reflection to be even better based on ronkent's comments above. |
@unsound @prof This should soothe the feelings https://www.avsforum.com/double-blind-abx-testing-proves-power-cords-effect-audio/ |
Ronkent interesting that you also had an “issue” with the screws loosening on the 2.4s you had a while back. I didn’t experience that same issue with my much older 3.6s so am not sure if this is due to the type of screws used to hold the 2.4’s drivers or to the bolts used. In any case - a cheap “tweak.” |
sdl4 Thanks for the suggestion to use Cable Company’s service to try out different speaker cables. I actually used them a couple years back to listen to different power cords. I haven’t had to think about speaker cables for many years, since Naim’s NACA5 had always been a really good sounding match for my amp and my Thiels, but ironically after my Naim amp was upgraded the Naim speaker cables are no longer a good match. I’m going to look into Straight Wire, Cardas and Morrow speaker cables as my next step. |
I was just reading an advertisement for Vitus Audio SIA-030 World Premier at the Munich Show 2019. Hope our friends attending this event has an opportunity to audition. Happy Listening!@jafant I will attend to next Munich Hi End and I will do my best to be able to listen to new Vitus Audio SIA-030.....preparing myself to cut my credit card before get in the room :-) |
A one owner sweet pair of 3.6's just became available in Santa Fe, NM. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9e40f-thiel-audio-cs-3-6-full-range |