There's enough "us vs. them" already in this world, so I think anyone who considers himself an audiophile should be welcome into our little club.
Should people with no turntable or reel to reel be considered audiophiles?
Just like those driving a Porsche SUV can join PCA (digital audio fans can join Audiogon) but are certainly not Porschephiles unless they also own a coupe (Panamera owners I guess gets a pass here).
Please respond with a yes or no and we'll tally a vote for the first 100 responses.
Please respond with a yes or no and we'll tally a vote for the first 100 responses.
489 responses Add your response
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It seems that "audiophiles" and "opinions" go together. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. Until, that is, when one's opinion is to demolish and abhor the opinion of another. Come on, guys... Let people enjoy what they enjoy. So long as you're not hurting someone than what should it matter if you have a preference that differs from someone else? For instance, I could afford to have bought a Porsche in years past and at present. However, it isn't what I value in life. That doesn't make it right or wrong for someone else. I have plenty of friends who own a Porsche (or two, or even three) and they are wonderful people. They certainly don't hold it against me that I prefer to own a different brand of medium sized SUV with AWD because that better serves my lifestyle of skiing a lot (as in my handle here, mammothguy54. I ski a lot at Mammoth Mountain and I was born in 1954). We all get along and enjoy sharing our thoughts on life, including our personal preferences in hobbies, passions, etc. None of us put down the other for not having the same passions or levels of enthusiasm for their given preference. Being an audiophile is about the pursuit of happiness in the domain of better sounding music reproduction. As well, in admiring, respecting, and enjoying the gear. At least, that's what it is for me. It may be different for others and, of course, that is OK too. So actually that means a "yes" from me and please do add that to the tally. Guys, lighten up. And do enjoy the music. |
@mammothguy54 This question is similar to the ski and snowboard debate. I know it’s different in California but up here in Canada(whistler mountain) snowboarding numbers are dwindling. I have done both equally but have to say skiing is the superior over snowboarding. Now snowboarding is only occasionally with my snowboarding friends. I used to do digital and vinyl equally also. Now I’m only vinyl. But snowboarding is still a serious sport and digital is still a serious source. |
Mostly great comments. A couple big disagreements - I have a basic submariner Rolex for 20 years (a working man's watch) - and a 9 year old 911 - I certainly am very happy with both, but can I mention another plus to these 2 investments - lack of depreciation! If you have good audio equipment and buy it correctly, it will hold decent value. You don't have to have a 911 or Cayman to be a Porshchephile mijostyn - you need a coupe (or cab or Targa). I know some PCA club members that love 924s, 944s, 914s, 928s (not sure why) and even 968s. And you don't have to track them - insurance is a killer and I will not self insure. Vermonster - a reputable $500 TT playing a good pressing will provide deeper, warmer sound than any digital file. I asked this question thinking "no", but started thinking about it, lhasaguy has a good point. I met a VERY serious audiophile a few months ago who sold my cousin a loaded Rega P5 for like $600 - the list price of the complete package he sold him is probably $2500. When I asked him what he replaced it with (I recently went from the P5 to the P8 because of the arm), he said "nothing" - unfortunately after his wife and government were done with him he had to sell everything and he said that if he gets back on his fee and has some cash, he said he could easily see dropping $50K on audio equipment. I bet it might be his first $50K.....That guy definitely IS an audiophile and knows more than anyone I've ever met. So, I am a Yes, and yes is WAY ahead. |
A more pertinent question (to me, anyway) is: are audiophiles music lovers first, or second? I don’t listen to my system, I listen to music through my system. Just a means to an end, not the end itself. That’s why I don’t call "it" a hobby. Musicians don’t call acquiring and using superior instruments a hobby. They are tools, just like a hi-fi system, a means of access to either the making of or listening to music. An easy way to answer the above question is to compare the amount of money you have invested in each, your music library vs. your system. One reason most musicians don't have good systems is that the little disposable money they do have goes into the acquisition of more and/or better instruments. They will actually go without food if need be. No music, no life. |
Judging by the serious sound modifying love of "vinyl' I am not sure what they are into, but guessing most don't know what instruments truly sound like in a live space, and many have lost most of the frequency range anyway. If audiophile is the pursuit of accurate musical reproduction then most jabbering here are not audiophiles. Perhaps the reduced information of vinyl better suits them? |
sokogear writes “Vermonster - a reputable $500 TT playing a good pressing will provide deeper, warmer sound than any digital” Piffle. I say again (Know) both can be great or so so. A great Flak file into a DAC and into tubes or Ss and with your backs turned many would/could never tell that sound verses that found a high end vinyl rig. By high end I mean 10-30K or more verses 5K up. |
Reduced information of vinyl???? Robertdid you must be kidding. Even oversampling can't deliver all the information of a continuous information flow from a cartridge that is not sampled. It is a scientific fact. You can try to get there, and maybe come close, but you can't get there. An audiophile appreciates high quality sound and the never ending pursuit to improve it. I would say if you are not an audiophile, this forum is a waste of your time. Just about everyone's posts seem to be coming from audiophiles. If you don't understand how vinyl is an important part of that, then just listen! |
“Reduced information“ means different things to different people. For the electrical portion of the system Signal to Noise ratio and Dynamic Range are very good measures of “information.” Theoretically, digital should win hands down, you know, with stated SIGNAL TO NOISE ratio of at least 90dB and DYNAMIC RANGE at least 90dB. But things don’t always work out in the real world like they do theoretically. Playback systems have inherent issues as I’ve oft pointed out that reduce the theoretical values of SNR and DR to where LP playback competes with CD playback, there are too many variables to say which is better in terms of “information” retrieval. It’s apples and watermelons usually . The industry further exacerbates this problem by overly compressing CDs and LPs. So, you can’t win. Other harder to define aspects of sound like sweetness, air, tone, transparency, etc. come into play as well, and can also be considered “information.” |
Hello, I believe if you love to listen to music you are an Audiophile. The medium keeps changing and probably will do so in the future. If I kept to analog I would have missed out on a lot of new music and artists that I found streaming. In the end I get to enjoy even more different types of music and spend more time enjoying it and my system. Who knows in a 100 years the purists might be the ones who stream due to new technology. In the end our body and brain have to convert sound waves to electrical current to interpret what was recorded on the black record. Who is to say we cannot go directly to electrical and still feel like we are experiencing the analog record. We can just remove our built in DAC so to speak. |
Of course what we hear is subjective.....if you think it sounds better it does. as far As “more” information,think of the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. Which is more precise or has more information, 3.1417, or the symbol for pi? Records well recorded and pressed ones in good shape are pi. Or think of 1/9 or .1111111111111111111. I do believe in the real world and majored in engineering, not math, but certainly had to take lots of math classes. Turntables deliver infinite significant digits of information. |
sokogear Turntables deliver infinite significant digits of information.No, they don't. That's why they're bandwidth-limited and have finite frequency response, dynamic range, and s/n. I'm an analog guy at heart. But the notion that it is "continuous" or "infinite" while digital is sliced into a lot of little pieces is mistaken and easily shown to be false. |
Your original post, in my mind, shows poor character. I can’t respect anyone who needs to create a divide between people in such a childish way. The posts below shows that you don’t understand digital sampling/audio technology, but you are very good at repeating the tired talking points of other people who don’t understand technology either. I could go into all the ways that vinyl throws away information, and there are a lot of them, but I expect the lesson would be lost. Do many so-called audiophiles truly appreciate high quality sound, or do they appreciate a certain "sound" that they label as high quality? The only absolute evaluation of high quality we could define would be how close it comes to an original live recorded instrument or voice. What is your experience w.r.t. hearing a live instrument then hearing that same recording on vinyl? tape? digital? .... I can tell you that high quality tape sounds pretty much exactly the same, other than a touch higher noise, than a high res digital recording. Listen closely, and the tape will have some anomalies that reveal itself as well. Hear the vinyl pressing and you will instantly pick it up as different and if you value accuracy of reproduction, I don’t mean that as different in a good way. You like Vinyl. Nothing wrong with that, but it does not make you a better audiophile. sokogear OP22 posts06-14-2020 11:58pmReduced information of vinyl???? Robertdid you must be kidding. Even oversampling can’t deliver all the information of a continuous information flow from a cartridge that is not sampled. It is a scientific fact. You can try to get there, and maybe come close, but you can’t get there. |
I remember chasing a particular Porsche.. the conversation was short - “ prospective owners are expected to demonstrate a significant level of support for the breed as demonstrated by a long and extensive history of Ownership. I think at that point I was at P#5 or 6. MC - Squire was trusted to maintain our 993 and I certainly miss that |
Robertdid - I'm not creating a divide, just curious as to what Audiogoners believe. Within the range of human hearing, vinyl delivers a CONTINUOUS stream of sound. Tape/reel to reel is better - that's what they use to capture the music in the studio and it delivers a continuous stream of sound as well. I don't own one do to convenience, cost, etc. and I know that is a compromise. We compromise in all decisions. If I had unlimited space, and money, I'd get one for sure and buy any copies Acoustic Sounds sells. A friend who says he wants to get one says they're like $150 per title. I guess you could tape your records, but what's the point of that? I don't think audiophiles appreciate a certain kind of sound. Some like tubes, some solid state, some electrostatic speakers, some drivers in boxes, some analogue verse digital. In many cases that depends on the music they listen to. It is impossible to replicate a live experience because of many factors, too numerous to name, so no, home audio does not compare. I once spoke with a stereo store owner a while back who himself couldn't believe that someone had purchased a $150K turntable (there are probably more expensive ones now) and his comment was "do you know how many concerts you can go to for that money". Obviously live music is the best, audiophiles just want the best quality sound they can get in their homes. There is no "better" audiophile. I would say more serious, crazier, committed to spending a bigger % of their total net worth on the hobby, etc. I wasn't a "better" audiophile when I was in college and had a sizable % of my assets in vinyl and equpment. I had more time and spent more of it concerned on expanding my collection and making it sound as good as possible. Yes, people thought I was crazy, just like my neighbors do now when I wash, cleanse, polish and was my car, but they just don't understand passion. Mijostyn - audiophiles are not silly, just a bit nuts and passionate about getting music they like to sound as good as possible to their tastes at home. If you want to turn up the treble and bass knobs in your car (or I guess on an old receiver), use an equalizer or DBX in your system, listen to Beats headphones to pump up the bass....whatever floats your boat. And Steve McQueen was cool. |
By the way, I almost forgot, I’ve had the opportunity on many occasions this past year to hear a big system, an evolved, grown-up system, for which the Reed Solomon error detection/correction codes were disabled on the CD player. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, is he insane?! The codes can be disabled AFTER the scattered light problem is eliminated AND AFTER the fluttering disc problem is eliminated. It’s smooth sailing after that. The disc played on this system must be emmaculate, scratch, fingerprint and dust free obviously. It’s a whole new ballgame folks. Anyone in N. Va can go hear it for yourself. Trust me. You will be inclined to drive home as fast as you can and throw whatever system you’ve been ranting and raving about in the nearest lake. Conclusion, for whatever reasons the Reed Solomon codes hurt the sound. The only reason they are there in the first place is because the whole digital playback system is on the very edge of failure so they threw everything but the kitchen sink at it so it would at least fly a little bit. Kinda like a kiwi bird. That’s what a stereo system sounds like when it’s all grown up. 🤗 |
Within the range of human hearing, vinyl delivers a CONTINUOUS stream of sound. And so is the output of a digital audio device. Within the limits of human hearing, a digital output is far more "continuous" than vinyl. Instead of repeating this statement, which shows you really don’t understand the underpinning of audio/digital audio, why not try to do some research and understand what is actually happening. There is nothing truly "continuous" about vinyl. Once you throw in noise, the continuity is gone, period, and guess what, vinyl has a lot more noise than digital. Vinyl also has more speed issues (throwing away information), vinyl has very poor channel separation (throwing away lots more information), vinyl has RIAA issues (throwing away information), all added to the noise (throwing away information). Yet vinyl still sounds good to many. Accuracy of sonic reproduction, and preference for sonic reproduction are not the same thing, but it is important to understand which is which. Some of those inaccuracies in vinyl, lets call them "analog signal processing", could even be good from a perspective of the brain either extracting information or creating a pleasurable but false outcome. Who cares what Audiogoners believe on this question. It’s like asking people to put up their hand and declare they are a bigot. Is there a positive outcome in that? Robertdid - I’m not creating a divide, just curious as to what Audiogoners believe. |
Shhhh ... don't anyone tell Geoffkait, that rip and streaming eliminates real-time CD error correction from the process, and just as 1+1 = 2, if you are doing Reed-Solomon offline, and there are no uncorrectable errors, then it is impossible for it to make a difference in the sound quality, no matter what someone may convince themselves of. We are not in the realm of personal preference here, we are in the realm of 1+1 = 2, and that does not change based on where the 1 came from. |
Ah magic pebble man. Quick with the ad-homs, quick with the deflections, slow as as a dead tortoise at providing a reasoned argument. So magic pebble man, if the CD is ripped offline, we know the following factually:
So, given all those, please tell us magic pebble man, how your argument holds any water. I don't really expect I will get a meaningful reply. I am sure whatever you respond back will be one of a) more insults, b) an answer that ignores all the points I raised, or c) something completely unrelated and probably coupled with an insult. Of course, you may see that you were wrong (sort of like the RF frequency things and power) and just choose not to reply or admit your error. |
And magic pebbles man goes with (a) just as expected. Without the ability to support their selfish attention seeking posts with a reasoned approach, the usual path for certain people is to resort to insults. It is pretty much the first indicator that you have won an argument, or they really had no argument in first place. They have no argument, so their only path is to attempt to discredit the other person. |
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No geoffkait, you are only discrediting yourself. I doubt you will ever see that though. Those that buy into your abuse and deflections are lost anyway, but they don't represent anywhere near the majority. It appears you have never really grown up from being the class clown. I guess you never realized that most of the time people were laughing at you, not with you. geoffkait22,708 posts06-15-2020 1:31pmYes, you’re right, robberrttddidd, I’m discrediting the other person. How perceptive of you! 👀 |
Forget about the DAC for a second. Most of the errors are made in the transport and simply passed on to the DAC. Buffering the data won’t help because the errors occur when the laser tries to read the nanoscale data spiral. The errors occur in the first picosecond. The errors are buffered right along with everything else. I’m not saying some DACs are not better than others. It’s just that DACs aren’t smart enough to know when they’re being fed garbage. Garbage in/garbage out. 🔄 |
What condition is it, that no matter the discussion, you always bring up the same argument whether it applies or not? I wasn't feeling quite 100% last night. It must have been that low pressure depression over Kansas. There is no way it was the beer and the excessive sun ... not to mention I don't live in Kansas because low pressure depressions cause one not to feel 100% so it must have been that. |