Surely the difference in response time (if there is any) would be so insignificant to make it irrelevant. Maybe be so with antiquated drivers.
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I have not had an opportunity to own the REL sub however I have maintained Velodyne DD18's as well as the JL Audio Fathom F212 V2. The JL is a much quicker response sub due to the smaller driver however the DD18 is no slouch. Both excellent subs that I have incorporated in two seperate systems however I sway towards the JL. Using the JL with a pair of JBL Array 1400's which blend perfectly. |
I’m lately going more and more to the USA made products especially for premium products. I have a JL F113 and it “was” awesome. It’s a V1 and there is a $450 charge to fix anything period and send it back no matter what the issue is. They will but in V2 parts which is awesome. It’s got a buzz. It’s 220v cause I bought in Shanghai probably 10 years ago so I feel the 450 to update and fix it is very reasonable. I’ve been putting it off for 2 years cause I’m lazy and busy. I would say if the cost is comparable I would go JL all day long. I’ve heard Rel a few times at dealers. They sounded really good just as the JL. I’m sure they are comparable but my money will go with the American company as long as the cost is comparable along with SQ. |
I'll go for a better product with less failures as possible and easy customer support. Some are super "Made in USA" only despite the stuff breaking down and having difficult customer support which is baffling. The sub could be made by a Martian in Nepal for all I care long as it works well. |
What is for real is despite JL being made in the US....I see reports on here sharing shoddy support and some multiple failures but none for REL? Call it midfi or not - REL subs work and while some may complain about blowing 4K on a sub made in China, everything else people pretty much everyday is made in China so........*shrug*😂 |
@pedroeb -- People always choose only the most popular brand of subs which are not really the best What's really rejected is that which doesn't fit the narrative, and with subs that's anything that veers away from the smaller cube-sized, rather inefficient box and a, yes, typically well-known brand. I wouldn't deem anyone buying a pair of JL Audio, REL or SVS subs "inferior," I'm sure very good results can be had carefully implementing them in one's setup, but it's the other way 'round; those who go in different directions with (to audiophilia) lesser known brands like PSA, JTR, DSL, Funk Audio, DIY solutions and others usually aren't given a dime of attention from the audiophile community, and if they ever so rarely are it often comes down to perplexed or derogatory comments that boil down to "ridiculous size," "overkill," "only useful for Home Theater," "are you trying to bring down the house?" and such. With that in mind try giving the impression that this "apocryphal" segment of lesser known brands and (god forbid) deviating solutions actually surpasses what's more readily accepted in audiophile circles, and any further interest has effectively fallen by the wayside. |
I have owned a pair of S510 and now a pair of fathom113v2. I had no problems with the sound or build quality of the RELs. They have the benefit of speaker level inputs for those of us without two line outs. They are easy to lift using their handles. With the help of an a remote acoustician, I was was able to well integrate and flatten the frequency response up to 60Hz where there was a 10db node that could not be solved because it was vertical/axial coming from the main speakers. The acoustician recommended a JL CR1 crossover, so I bought the subs along with it. I had immediate buyers remorse because they are really expensive for me. The package arrived a few weeks ago, and I have just used factory recommended settings. The fathoms are much more feature rich than the S series, including auto turn-on, auto-equalization, a low frequency filter centered about 20Hz as well as a phase knob. They come with covers that I also use. I have only set it at the recommended 80Hz, set the 20Hz filter to -6db or so zeroed everything else. The CR1 eliminated the 60Hz issue. Nothing is particularly optimized, but bass is tighter with better resolution. The bass integration with the horn section of my JBLs is now better than with JBLs without subs, which has been an issue since I first bought the speakers. I would be happy with either brand, it is just that the JL offers a relative abundance of adjustability and I will not have to consider subs again. |
People always choose only the most popular brand of subs which are not really the best I'm wondering why they are not really the best, Is it due to one of these; better price, better advertising, better distribution, or simply a better product. One could ask why are they rejected. I hope it's not exclusivity and bragging rights? There must be a reason I'm not understanding. Is anyone who purchases a popular model judged as inferior? |
pimbo12 posts I will stack up any day my JL Audio 6W3 subwoofers, my JL Audio 8W7, or even Boston Acoustic Pro Series 8 or 10” subwoofers to Dynaudio top of the line subs. Been there and done that. I competed in IASCA Car Audio competition for SQ (Sound Quality) for several decades. I do like Dynaudio front stage 3 way speakers but I don’t care for their subs. My source that I have competed in the past are Alpine 7909, 7990, 9990 decks, Alpine 1310, Nakamichi CD700, Clarion DRX9255, DRZ9255, McIntosh MX5000, MX4000, MX406, Sony CDX-C90, etc. I learned from some of the best in the business like Richard Clark :-) |
mijostyn5,067 I use to have 2 Martin Logan Balancedforce 210 subs that did okay with my system. They utilize Balancedforce better than any other company. As good as there subs were, I felt even with their microphone setup, it overloaded the bass with the Wilson Audio Maxx 2’s. As you know with the Wilson Audio Maxx 2, they really don’t need a subwoofer as the speaker can go down to 22hz. I’ve owned a lot of high end subs over the year but for the setup I was looking for, I went with the JL because I wanted the subs to compliment the speakers without overwhelming them. Easy to do with subs. Most systems today probably need subs but mine really doesn’t. My crossover is set for 35 and below hence the reason for the Wilson Crossover. As for the the preamp is concerned, I have that covered utilizing the Cary Audio SLP-05 with the Ultimate Upgrade, Cardis wiring and tube rolling. I’ve utilized quite a bit of top of the line Monoblock and stereo amplifiers and the unit that has stood the test of time is the preamp:-) Thanks for the compliment though. The equipment you have mentioned are incredible by the way. |
05pm"B&W or Bowers and Wilkins, whatever they call themselves today makes fine loudspeakers found at Best buy. I've failed to see Wilson, Magico, Marten, Estelon, or MBL there for sale"........this post was posted to start a disruptive argument amoung members nothing more ,which is typical of the original poster....i think we've had enough of his nonsense |
The first subwoofer I had in my van was a top of the line JL. It was one of the first ones with a dual voice coil. It was a beast. I could run it as hard as I wanted and it took it all. When that one eventually died I replaced it with a Dynaudio driver in the same box, same amp, same everything basically. I blew it up within a week. Luckily the dealer thought it was a dud so I got a replacement under warranty. Somehow though, I knew I had just driven it too hard so I ended up changing the power output of the amp to keep it alive. Even though the JL was much more powerful and more fun if I wanted to play loud, the Dynaudio was by far the best sounding sub. There was no contest really, the difference was huge. The JL made low frequency noise, the Dynaudio played low frequency music. there was detail with the Dyn's that the JL's had never even hinted at. I put that to the way the drivers work. JL drivers need a lot more power to get going, the Dynaudio moves much easier. That makes it move quicker, hence it keeps up better with the rest of the drivers. JL's boxes are generally smaller and their amps more powerful that REL's. I assume REL subs don't need the power because their drivers are easier to drive and because their boxes are larger they also need less power overall to reach the same SPL. That equates to less movement of the driver for the same output. That can only be a good thing. Hence, on the above, I would go for REL out of the two but when I'm ready to buy subs, I'll put my money to Dynaudio subs. I might need twice as many to get the same SPL but they're much cheaper too so the overall outlay will be the same. |
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B&W or Bowers and Wilkins, whatever they call themselves today makes fine loudspeakers found at Best buy. I've failed to see Wilson, Magico, Marten, Estelon, or MBL there for sale. Inside the Bowers & Wilkins factory to see the new 800 D4 speakers |
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Interesting to hear from people who’ve used both brands. I used an f110 v1 for years in a couple of different rooms and systems and am now using two T7is in a large open living room with Magnepan 1.7s. As has already been said, it comes down to your personal taste and situation. Both companies make good products. For me, the setup approach of the RELs was easier, faster, and worked better. For me, things like differences in sub amplifier power or bottom-end limit didn’t matter nearly as much as how easily and how well they could be integrated with my room (including visually) and system. But whatever works for you, go for it. |
@james633 , With either the Anthem STR or Trinnov Amethyst all you have to do to completely integrate the subs is put the subs wherever you want them, set up the microphone at your listening position, tell the unit what crossover you want and tap the button. The units will ping each speaker in succession, calculate correction curves, crossovers and delays and plug them in automatically. Takes a quiet house and 15 minutes. This is a whole lot more like plug and play than crawling around the room trying to figure out what the right position for your subwoofers is. You will never be able to achieve this level of performance manually. I tried for 20 years and even though I thought I had it figured out the first cut I played after hooking up my old TacT 2.2x (Red Hot Chilli Peppers) totally blew me away. decathalon1991, You have a fine system. I believe you are using the CR 1 crossover? While greatly superior to the low pass filter found in the vast majority of commercial subwoofers it is not near state of the art. I am also intimately familiar with the Fathom f113 and JL's drivers. I considered using them at one time, specifically the 13W7. I decided not to use it because it overs no advantage over Dayton's Ultimax drivers in home installations and I am not inclined to pay extra for cosmetics. The system I am currently working on uses 8 12" drivers. At any rate digital bass management is far superior to anything you can do in the analog world. Distortion levels are orders of magnitude lower and you can delay the signal to various speakers as needed to time aligning the whole affair. It is close to impossible to do this by analog means. You have a fine system. Please, look into the Trinnov Amethyst preamplifier. It will push your system to a whole new level. Trinnov is a French company that makes commercial systems for theaters and studios. They currently make the best audio and theater processors and that is not IMHO. I have no interest in Trinnov other than I plan to replace my aging 2.2X with an Amethyst in the near future. I probably will not use it's phono stage but everything else is top notch. As for the efficiency of subwoofers, this is a real wild card. It depends on where you put them and how much correction they require. The beauty of digital correction is that you can get away with a much smaller enclosure as long as you have the power to do it. Adding a port or passive radiator does not necessarily make a sub more efficient. The sub will go lower before rolling off but when it rolls off it does so twice as fast making it more difficult to correct if you just happen to want to go lower. With correction like you have in your Fathom it is best to use a sealed enclosure. If done right you can push it lower with less power and avoid issues like port noise and passive radiators bottoming out. Take a strobe to any passive radiator and watch what it does! The only commercially made subwoofers I would buy are made by Magico. They are using what is called a balanced force design. This involves putting two drivers at opposite ends of a symmetrical enclosure. The drivers operate in phase so their reactive energy cancels out and the enclosure remains stationary instead of shaking. Turn the volume up and put your hand on your subwoofer. Any vibration or shaking you feel equals distortion, a lot of distortion. Countering this requires a very stiff, heavy enclosure with a balanced force layout. This is also the main advantage of a down firing subwoofer. The driver is trapped between the floor and the weight of the enclosure. The main problem with this is how stiff the floor is. |
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adsell I have had 2 JL Audio F112 v1 for a long time now, they are pair with Wilson Sophia v1, I use a Trinnov AL16 to do bass management, they are brilliant and build quality is tops. I have used them with multiple setups, tube and SS preamps. If you take the time to do the setup with location and built in room correction, they are solid addition to any setup.adsell, my experience with an F113 A.R.O. was quite similar. The cabinet and amplifier/driver are extremely robust but the internal test tone, single peak auto only room optimization was very limiting. With optimized placement and detailed manual parameter adjustments the 13" F series sub was every bit as potent as the 18" model it was compared with. The majority of onboard Hi-Fi subwoofer processing has advanced very little in the past fifteen years and judging by the brand loyalty customer experience has stymied. jeffvegas, does your name imply you reside near the Silver and Black Nation? |
I have two B&W DB4S subs and I love them. 1000w and 8.5Hz at -6db. Terrific for music and movies where you feel as well hear the sounds. No worries with integration. FOR Great sound Easy to position Superb calibration controls AGAINST Requires phone & app Limited Android support Wrong side of the Atlantic LOL |
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missioncoonery “Seems like the people with the high end loudspeakers are using JL AUDIO. Is REL Midfi?......are you for real?...” Don’t you know if your cables are not 3 months salary you have a mid-fi system lol. I find much of the discussion here to be total nonsense and relate a lot to psychoacoustics I bought a pair of revel and in the process of researching opinions I ran across a number of articles on Revel’s blind testing and found it fascinating. This recent video is good. Get better toward the end. https://youtu.be/xEZkz4Li-0M Anyway back on topic. It does not matter whether you go JL or Rel it is all about integrating it well. You need a highpass and you should measure your room or you will spend a long time dialing it in. Subs are super important these days as speaker prices are getting crazy and bass is very important. Even the newest crop of mid sized speakers (Sopra 2/3, Wilson Sabrina X, Olympica III, Revel 228be etc, 803d3) have no deep bass. They rely on room gain and that never sounds a good as a proper sub or very large speaker. |
mijostyn, thanks for the opinion. If my JL subs fail for the 3rd time I might give JTR a try. As for DIY just not for me. As an engineer for 20 years I sure I could figure it out (I dabbled in a lot of tech over the years in industry), but it just does not interest me. I want things as plug and play as possible. Creating things, tweaking software, etc just seems like work to me these days. But I really respect the big DIY setups, very cool for sure. I have also remodeled two houses from the studs up and I just want to listen to music these days. No more construction, electrical, plumbing, no more projects for me. |
