Phono Stage upgrade to complement Dohmann Helix One Mk 2
Thanks to the recommendations from many users on this Audiogon blog, I think I was able to make a more informed purchase of a turntable, the Dohmann Helix One Mk 2. I've really been enjoying the turntable for the past month!
The next phase of my system now needs attention: the phono stage. Currently, I'm using a Manley Steelhead v2 running into an Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE pre-amplifier (into Ypsilon Hyperion monoblocks, into Sound Lab M745PX electrostatic speakers).
I've been told that I could really improve my system by upgrading the phono stage from the Manley Steelhead (although I've also been told that the Manley Steelhead is one of the best phono stages ever made).
Interestingly, two of the top phono stages that I'm considering require a step-up transformer (SUT). I'm not fully informed about any inherent advantages or disadvantages of using an SUT versus connecting directly to the phono stage itself.
I suppose my current top two considerations for a phono stage are the Ypsilon VPS-100 and the EM/IA LR Phono Corrector, both of which utilize an SUT. I don't have a particular price range, but I find it hard to spend $100k on stereo components, so I'm probably looking in the $15k - $70k price range.
Thanks.
@lewm, it depends on what state I am in. In New York and Vermont I can, but in Rockingham County, New Hampshire, not at all.
SLs have so much surface area impedance matched to air that they can surprisingly produce very low notes even though they are dipoles. I don't think they can do it accurately, the wild swings in output below 100 Hz are measurably worse than regular dynamic speakers in my room anyway. As lewm knows I cross out of them to the subwoofers at 100 Hz. Relieving them of low bass helps them to perform better everywhere else. It sounds like lewm is thinking of the possibilities. I was always a volume freak. If it did not go loud I was not interested. I got into subwoofers back in 1979 because I had fallen in love with loudspeakers that did not go loud enough, not even close. Subwoofers solved that problem but added others which I struggled with for years not willing to give up on ESLs running cleanly at volume playing anything from Chopin to Nirvana and everything in between except Lawrence Welk. ESL owners who lead more sedate lives might fare better without subwoofers especially if they are unwilling to go down the digital signal processing path. Bad subwoofers are way worse than no subwoofers. Distortion is noticeable lower in full range ESLs if you remove the bass from them. The louder you listen the more noticeable this becomes.
@lewm@rauliruegas@drbond, that is lay instinct. I can make a 7 hz sound in a telephone booth. It will not reverberate but it is quite measurable. Same goes for most rooms. It is true that you only hear the harmonics but you feel the note and you can measure it with a calibrated microphone which I have. Very few subwoofer systems are capable of projecting anything below 25 Hz. It takes a lot of surface area to create the wavefront properly. I currently use four 12" drivers in a 16 foot wide room. The 3 dB down point is 18 Hz and it falls off rapidly under that. The system I am working on has eight 12" drivers. I would use 15s but they would make the enclosures too large for my situation. Eight 12's are the most I can cram into the room. If that does not do it then I give up. Playing Vinyl I use a very steep subsonic filter anyway, 80 dB/octave.
Yes, that makes sense. I'll see how things work out. Presently, with just the SL speakers, and playing the 16 Hz note on vinyl, the walls shake; oddly, playing the same piece on digital doesn't cause much to shake, but just the normal vibration of the listening chair, etc.
Dear @lewm : " to generate 16Hz in my listening room... " well a sub can generates the 16z tone but the real problem is that the 16hz wave is big and can't be " developed " by the room/system.
Big organs normally are instaled in cathedrals/churchs.
The original 1812 Telarc LP ( that many of us own. ) has recorded deep bass notes ( 6hz-8hz ) coming from the different cannon shots and the only I can listen and feel for all and around my body are its harmonics.
The transient response in a room/system that cause the " bass impact " are all harmonics developed by those really deep bass notes.
Even that and at high SPL the experiences with are overwhelming.
In a real room/system almost only the gentlemans that own the MM7 speakers could have a more " complete " experience about that Telarc due that the speaker active subwoofer goes down 7hz but I don't know if M.Lavigne already tested that 1812 LP in his MM7.
We have the "automotive crew" to thank for ear-damaging incoherent bass thumps, not music.
drbond, I love classical music and especially I love Bach, because he would have been a great jazz composer. I just have the Clint Eastwood approach to deepest bass: "A man's got to know his limitations." Which in this case means I would not make the sacrifices or put up the cash needed to generate 16Hz in my listening room. There is probably only one actual organ (let alone an audio system) in the DC area that can reproduce that note, at the National Cathedral, about 4-5 miles from our house. But I admire your determination.
@rauliruegas, now you've hurt my feelings. No desert for you tonight:-) There are a few strange comments your references make. Nodal behavior is a function of the room. Certainly it can be modified by placement. This fellow asserts that more drivers result in a lower LF factor (Low Frequency). I can only guess what he means by this.n Maybe @lewmknows. Larger and more numerous drivers decrease excursion distances resulting in less distortion. He want to position subs at the midpoints of walls. If you are using your subwoofer array to lower distortion in the main speakers the higher crossover points have more benefit particularly with ESLs. Crossing at 100 Hz requires a stereo subwoofer array to avoid locating the subwoofers. There are also differences in requirements for the type of main speaker, line or point source. If you put a point source subwoofer array under a line source the subwoofers will become lost not having the same power projection. Its easy to cut volume but harder to increase it. Given large high quality drivers the quality of the subwoofer is mainly determined by the enclosure, large enclosures being significantly more problematic. Controlling resonance in a large panel is much harder than controlling resonance in a small panel. Given proper digital signal processing it is very possible to make a 1.5 cubic inch enclosure with two 12" drivers. Given enough power you can make them do anything you want and you do not need ports to get lower. We have the automotive crew to thank for modern driver designs, light cones, large voice coils and magnets, kapton formers, adequately vented, with shorting rings to lower distortion and finally long throw suspensions and kevlar spiders. You can get the finest subwoofer drivers for $250.00.
Dear @drbond : I can see that you are not taking bass quality level sound that's the first and critical target when we are speaking of true high end.
Integration of subs is not only to lower IMD but the bass THD response level because its harmonics are the ones that puts " dirty " and makes that the mid/high frequencies range get dirty too and this fact has a name: degradation sound reproduction.
Talking of quality lvel performance I can't know how your sub's seller can even the quality of the Krell/Gryphon amps and how the THD of each sub stays inside 1% at full power down to 20hz.
In the other side I xcould think that your seller/manufacturer will gives you a configuration of 4 sub's that helps to even the room bass response especially to use in HT systems where you need several seat positions with that evenly bass.
In the other side if your main system is for listen stereo MUSIC then normally you have only one seat position where the mid/high frequency ranges performs at its best and the Harman Int. research shows that for one seat position 2 subs performs really good.
I can't link here the 30 pages of that modeling deep research and here only some highligths:
""" With 5000 subwoofers, modal variation is virtually eliminated. The frequency response at all 16 seats is nearly identical. ASIDE This curve is a combination of 2 influences: The power response of the modeled subwoofers (the simulations included measured Entre 12” subwoofer power responses). The effect of the real-world subwoofer response can be seen above 8 Hz. ""
""" The next four figures show results of optimization of 1 to 4 subwoofers in the test room. Locations of subwoofers were constrained to be along the walls, at intervals of 2 feet. Optimization is based on Std only, i.e. the configuration with the lowest std is considered optimum. ...Obviously, wall midpoint locations result in optimum room response, based on the std anyway. Not surprisingly, symmetrical configurations seem to work better than non�symmetrical ones. Four subwoofers results in the most symmetrical configuration and the best results, but with significantly less (normalized) low frequency output than two subs """
"" Two and four subwoofers at the wall midpoints are still the best configurations overall. Four subwoofers in the corners does not seem as advantageous as when the grid was centered. There is still little or no advantage to using a large number of subwoofers. LF factor still goes down for higher numbers of subwoofers. ""
""" One subwoofer at each wall midpoint is the best in terms of Std, Max-ave and Max-min but does not support low frequencies particularly well. Two subwoofers, at opposing wall midpoints, performs very nearly as well as four at the midpoints and gives a much better LF factor. One subwoofer in each corner also has good low frequency support, but does not perform quite as well as one subwoofer at each wall midpoint, in terms of Std, Max-ave and Max-min. If cost and aesthetics are considered, subwoofers at 2 wall midpoints is preferred. ""
The fact that 4 sub's could even the bass response it does not really matters if you have one seat position where 2 sub's can doit if the sub's have the whole quality levels.
I don't know if you noted on different links in my last post that all those subwoofer ( as the Magico. ) use metal frame for its box. The 1% THD does not comes just at random no inclusive Gryphon said something That I posted here: " his dedicated class AB amps were designed to fulfill the woofers needs and re-read what Dan ?dagostino said in his Krell sub manual and what Wilson posted too and Evolution Acoustics where its common denominator/main target is QUALITY and a side advantage of that quality is to have deeeper bass response.
Anyway is up to you and of course is your money and only you can decide how spend it or invest it.
Dear @mijostyn : In this regards and with all respect I really don't care of your opinion because I'm not talking of your " holly grail ". Live with and let live.
@drbond, just another dance tune. I have three versions of it, two by Biggs and another by Herrick which I like the best. That note makes my vision blur.
For subwoofers you want an amp that goes down to 0 Hz, DC or darn close. The Parasound JC1+ is perfect. It will produce it's rated power down to 2 Hz. 180 amps!
@lewm, it is not just notes. Large venues breath. Lots of noises are generated by instruments that are not notes. It is that information under 30 Hz that gives you the sensation of a live performance and elevates a system from just another stereo. Low C causes my entire house to rattle, my vision blurs and you feel it but you do not hear it. The hand of god. IMHO ESLs make lousy subwoofers.
@rauliruegas, shoot Raul, I wouldn't put those in my tree house. Huge resonating enclosures, crossovers all over the place, el cheapo air motion transformers. Yuk. A pair of LS3 5As on stands with subwoofers would sound better than those things. Remember the Nearfield PipeDreams. You could not get those speakers to image if your life depended on it.
The standard amplifier that he pairs with his subwoofers goes down to 18 Hz. We'll see what he's able to find. (By the way, if you haven't heard that organ piece, you should give it a listen. My friends who don't even like classical music are amazed by that composition.)
As I mentioned about a week ago, you’re in good hands with Duke. You’ll be going to a lot of trouble to hear one lowest note in one piece of music, which I presume is emanating from a mighty organ pipe.
Thanks for your suggestions. I'm going to see what Duke at Audiokinesis comes up with. He sounds like he really knows what he's talking about, and is interested in helping me get the best out of my Sound Lab ESL's. He's also a Sound Lab dealer, so he's very familiar with what the speakers could use for augmentation. It sounds like I'm probably headed down the custom-built subwoofer route. Presently, we're looking for an amplifier / HPF combination that can work down to 16 Hz, which is low C. (Yes, that is a key note in Bach's Passacaglia and fugue in c minor.)
Presently, most every other component in my system is non-negotiable.
Now and if you are really seriously about the full integration bass managdement then maybe what you could need is something " radical " as could be to put on sale your SL speakers in change for something like this:
Fathom is another company that make expensive high end (or high end because expensive) subwoofers complete with x-over and amplifier. I's sure without looking that Wilson Audio do too.
Dear @drbond : You are a gentleman that go where the " wind " " hold " you and change your targets as you can change your shirt. Nothing wrong with that because is what you show in the subwoofer issue.
Your main word about subwoofers was: trial and from there several changes to even disregard the Magico sub’s because its amps are class D and perhaps ( but I doubt because you have the kind of money need it for the Magico’s ) its price.
Now you are looking for a custom made sub’s and all your mind changes only for what you read through internet with out listen to any sub in your system or in a more or less similar room/system. Again nothing wrong with that.
Well taking in count your kind of mind about here are two truly good options for what you are looking for that I don’t tall before because I had in mind that " trial " you ask for. Anyway here it’s:
I spoke with Duke LeJeune at Audiokinesis, and he agreed with you that the "Swarm" would not suffice in my room, due to its size. He mentioned that he could make some custom subwoofers with either 12" drivers or possibly with s 10" drivers per box. His set up would have the potential to be sealed, vented, or double vented. He also mentioned that his subwoofers are passive, but he recommends a amplifier that can be set to a 4th or 5th order LPF. Presently, I'm going to investigate and pursue this option for the next few weeks.
@drbond, The best bass I have heard comes from monster class A amps with exceedingly low output impedance, vanishingly low. I agree that passive subwoofers are the way to go. The problem is getting them, ones that fit your spec. AudioKinesis swarms do have outboard electronics and Duke might sell you a set without the electronics. The swarm system is a great, high value subwoofer array for people with small to intermediate size rooms and systems in the $20,000 or so price range. To play around and get used to subs and not spend to much money doing it I suppose they are fine. In the end they are not up to the quality of the rest of your system and even with four 10" woofers they are really not enough for your rather large room. My current system uses four 12" subs in a room 16 feet wide. There is no back wall as it is an open concept house. The room was designed to avoid standing waves. The system I am working on now will include eight 12" drivers in 4 enclosures.
The best way to get passive sub is to make them. There are great kits available at Parts Express with SOTA drivers. They are as good as 90% of the commercial subs on the market and very easy to build. The only fly in the ointment is putting a fine finish on them. You can give them to a Piano restorer and they can put an excellent black finish on them. Many people cover them in equipment carpet.
@lewm, not at all. I can AB straight analog with full bore processing by pressing a button. I have to assume you know what you are listening to and in that context it is a no brainer. I know you don't think so which makes it more fun.
I've read some comments on a subwoofer thread about how the user preferred Class A/AB amplifier for the subwoofers, as the class D truncated notes too quickly, and the like. Consquently, currently, I'm leaning towrards favoring passive subwoofers driven by a Class A or AB amplifier(s) (which I already have). I think I'll give Duke a call at Audiokinesis sometime soon to see what he has to offer, as I think the "swarm" can be purchased with only passive subwoofers. . . but I'll still have address LPF, HPF, etc. with that option.
@lewm, any decent processor corrects phase and time. Once in numbers you can do pretty much anything without adding any distortion. It is hard for old analog guys to believe. If there is anything detrimental in the process the advantages far outweigh it. It is a new world. Some of the old ways still apply after all, our ears are analog devices. However, when it comes to processing signals to do exactly what you want, digital rules. Lew, if we were face to face I would have absolutely no problem proving that to you.
@rauliruegasOf course not! That does not change the fact that it is digital recordings we are listening to and they are superior in many ways to older analog ones assuming they are mixed correctly and not compressed into oblivion.
Mijo, You wrote, "Analog crossovers add distortion and phase shifts. Some can shift phase 180 degrees with a knob but only by ear which is a trial and error nightmare." Do you seriously believe that doing a DAC to ADC conversion, where also the signal is manipulated in the digital domain, in the signal path adds no distortion? With the very steep filters you favor, there would be phase shift too; does your TACT enable you to correct for phase shift? For me, phase shift is a non-issue, because with my speakers and no crossover, neither I nor anyone else can hear a 180 degree change of phase. Double-blind tested with my wife and son and other experienced listeners. Once you add a subwoof, I suppose that phase between the main ESL and the subwoof needs to be set appropriately, but that is easy; there is just one variable. I credit your taste in components (other than the digital ones), which makes me very curious to hear your system some day. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned.
If you look at the Stereophile review of even the old SoundLab A1, they measured the panel as flat out past 20kHz, so the need for a super tweeter escapes me. But of course ESLs do beam at HF. Depends where you sit, and your hearing acuity. Your present digital volume control would seem to be wanting in fidelity. Ok if you can run wide open.
@lewm, sorry I forgot to mention. At this moment I am using my outdated TacT 2.2X. I have a DEQX Pre 8 on order. It has a much faster processor so you do not have to worry about digital volume. When you lower volume in the digital domain you loose bits. With my Tact at low volumes you are worse than a CD about 12 bits. With the Pre 8 you are still above 24 bits. The Pre 8 also has four crossovers so I can see what a ribbon or horn tweeter will do above 12 kHz. There is the Pre 4 which is essentially the same unit as the 8 but with only one crossover for your subwoofers. You manage the units with your computer and a dedicated program. You can design any target curve equalizing the system any way you want. I keep mine dead flat until 100 hz where I increase the bass at about 3 dB.oct down to 20 Hz were I roll off steeply at 80 dB/oct creating a digital rumble filter. It also prevents launching your subwoofer cones across the room when you drop the tonearm:-)
@rauliruegas, if you listen to any modern music of course you do. It is all digitally recorded. I record other people's special records to my hard drive in 24/192. You can easily AB the recording with the original and nobody can tell the difference. In other words the full characteristics of my turntable playing a record are 100% maintained even after all this digital monkey business. It is also a lot of fun getting cool free music!
@lewm, the problem is most commercial subs do not have any HPF. Yes, the LPF is always active. Analog crossovers add distortion and phase shifts. Some can shift phase 180 degrees with a knob but only by ear which is a trial and error nightmare. The crossover you are thinking about is too low. You should be up around 100 Hz to get the maximum benefit in terms of lowering distortion in the SLs. The problem is the subs have to be in time and phase with the SLs or you will hear them. this is true at 80 Hz also. I have listened to every crossover point and slope you can think of between 40 and 150 Hz 1 to 10th order slopes. As I have said before I can change crossovers on the fly from my listening chair. My Acoustats did better at 125 Hz. For some reason the SLs do better at 100 Hz. My guess is it is more surface area. Below that you start to loose headroom and increase distortion. Another issue is a subwoofer array for your system would be more involved than dr bond. He has 7 foot SLs with a high ceiling so below 200 Hz he is point source. You have 8 footers and if you have 8 or nine foot ceilings you are line source. In order to match the power projection of a line source speaker you have to have a line source sub array. This mean subwoofers at up to 6 foot intervals from wall to wall, corner to corner. I operate mine in stereo due to the high crossover point. Obviously, this is a more expensive set up but you are very clever and capable of building your own.
drbond, In most cases both the HPF and the LPF built in to a high grade commercial sub would be ACTIVE filters, not the same as just inserting a capacitor in series with your main ampifier, which is a PASSIVE filter. The difference is that in an active or electronic crossover, usually there are some active gain components that correct for insertion loss (remember insertion loss from way back up this thread?). A side benefit of an active (electronic) crossover is you don’t have to be concerned too much about the input and output impedance of the driven and driving devices. In other words, you don’t have to worry about the input Z of the amplifier you are connecting to. Remember I mentioned that your amp with a 22K ohm input impedance needs about 0.1uF capacitance to roll off below 80Hz? With an active crossover set at 80Hz, you could buy a new amplifier with a very different input Z and not have to change anything. Also, you can just twist a knob to experiment with a lower or higher HPF point, if 80Hz is not satisfying. With a passive filter, you would have to re-calculate the capacitance and install the new value.
Also, your thinking about the cello frequencies as you outlined it in your post at 12:47 pm today is a bit off target. If the main speaker and subwoofer are well adjusted, then you will not hear a problem. Of course, that takes some thought and effort to get right, since as you say the cello operates right at the crossover frequencies one is most likely to use with a full range speaker + sub, 60 to 80Hz. Like everything else in life, there is no free lunch, which is why I have resisted subwoofers with my SLs even though I acknowledge the potential benefits. (I’m rethinking the issue as a result of this thread.) One point to consider is that subs are very re-sale-able, if you end up disappointed. There is a big market among home theater gurus. Finally, with a passive 6db filter, the chosen crossover point represents a frequency where the attenuation is -3db; it’s not flat down to the crossover point. Thus, another octave down is -9db, not -6db. Not so with most active crossovers.
holmz , Not at all. You ever tried an analog crossover on ESLs? Wel I have, several ones and they all turned out to be awful in the end. You can do it but there are far superior ways
^Nope I have not.^
I have only tried the Vandy HPF and their sub… and it is the older one.
(not old when I got it, but it is now.)
But yes the three options are:
A Vandy like HPF cutting the main L/R and a sub that account for that
The same HPF (or a capacitor) and do the bumping up of the sub digitally using another cable from the preamp like RCAs.
A digital XO and the running the HPF to the main L/R and LPF to the sub(s)
In any case reducing the low frequencies to the main L/R is “always” beneficial - unless one never has low notes, DC offsets or subsonic rumble freqs.
Dear @mijostyn : I did not change my way of thinking on digital reproduction. The issue is that I don't mix analog / digital at same time.
When I'm listening to analog I want to listen the analog alternative colorations and when I listen to digital I like to hear the digital color.
You are totally immerse in digital and nothibng wrong with that because it's what you like it. Maybe in the future I could be immerse in digital too but not now.
Analog has its own and specific color and digital too but way different. drbond is now thinking to mix it, fine for him.
As I already posted your holly grail is just yours and you are enjoying, good.
Mijo, my question was specifically what are you using to provide digital domain filtering, that is, what brand and model? Thanks.
Here on Audiogon and elsewhere there are always a plethora of good high power solid state amplifiers for sale pre-owned at prices far below the cost of a new JC1. You’ll say the JC1 is best and I’ll say we’re only talking about the lowest 2 octaves of low bass. I’d look for a Threshold or Krell or any of many other good choices. In fact one might find a used JC1. I do also like the force cancellation idea.
@lewm, all my filters are digital. I can select any slope and any frequency at 1 Hz intervals and I can make adjustments on the fly from the listening position. This is TOTALLY different than analog filters.
@rauliruegas, I have heard you say on multiple occasions that digital reproduction is not just a little, but far more accurate than analog. Have you changed your position? I have owned Velodyne Subs and have listen to some of the more current models. I would never have one in my system. There are many great woofer drivers out there now. The differences in the good ones are relatively minor in comparison to the differences in enclosures. There is not one commercial subwoofer I would have in my system, not one. Not even the Magicos (to effin big!). But in order to have a chance at being uncolored the sub has to have two drivers at opposite ends of the enclosure operating in phase. This keeps the sub from shaking at volume which causes distortion. The only commercial subs that do this are the Magico Q Series, Some of the KEFs and the ML BalancedForce series. The best way to avoid driver distortion is to use large ones of high quality. The amps used in any of these subwoofers are compromised because they can not produce significant amounts of heat. They also have to fit within the subs and the manufactures want to keep them small. IMHO passive subwoofers with outboard electronics are the only way to go. I double darn guarantee that not one subwoofer plate amplifier can produce the bass of a JC1. Unfortunately, this is a much more expensive approach but that is life.
Now as for as my turntable is concerned. If I remember correctly your most significant concern with phono stages is an accurate RIAA correction. My phono stage is connected to a Lynx Hilo, a studio ADC, DAC router. The phono stages output is set to flat (no RIAA correction) and the correction is performed by a program in my audio computer. It is way more accurate than anything you can do in the analog domain, very cool. You should try it or are you going to be one of those stuffy analog only guys. Good luck trying to find an analog record now a days.
@holmz, Not at all. You ever tried an analog crossover on ESLs? Wel I have, several ones and they all turned out to be awful in the end. You can do it but there are far superior ways.
@drbond, 6 dB/oct is no where near fast enough to get the drop in distortion and increased head room I have been talking about. My filters are currently 48 dB/oct and the only way you can do that in an invisible fashion is with digital crossovers. I have been through every permutation of this problem some several times and have lost a lot of hair over it. If you do not want to use anything digital in your system you are better off without subwoofers otherwise they will drive you nuts and you will have wasted a lot of money. Subwoofers have to disappear into the music. You should not know they are there until a very low note comes along. In order to get the benefits of lower distortion and increased headroom, critical for ESLs you have to cross over in the area of 100 Hz which makes life even more difficult. Subwoofers also have to be placed in specific locations in order to work well. They are over 6 dB more efficient against walls and even more in corners. You also eliminate some (but not all) of the room interaction this way. This places them three to 5 feet behind the ESLs. In order to get the speakers aligned in time the ESLs have to be delayed a little. You can only do this in the digital domaine. Any other approach is a compromise you are not going to like.
Hmmm. . .I’m back to the consideration stage: apparently, the most neutral approach to add a HPF in my current system is via a high-grade capacitor. However, these capacitors only give a 6 db / octave adjustment, which means starting at 80 Hz (so that the mid-range isn’t affected), would only drop the volume by 6 db at 40 Hz, which is the lowest sound played by the cello, although the piano may drop to 30 Hz on occasion, which would give about a 9 db decrease in signal to the main ESL speakers.
To put things in perspective, one click on the volume knob on my pre-amplifier is about 2 db (and it is usually set around 26 clicks) so we’re talking dropping the volume only 3 clicks for most low frequencies, and at most 4 clicks for the lowest, which is only going to be about a 10-20% drop in volume for these frequencies. So I’m not sure a standard analog capacitor HPF is going to make much of a difference in attenuating the signal to the main ESL’s; and apparently, the built in HPF in subwoofers are also the standard 6db / octave. Ideally, I would get a high quality analog HPF, which would minimally affect the SQ, and filter at 24 db / octave. . .but that may be like the tooth fairy: impossible!
I would suggest that going a bit slow is not a crime.,, and doing it right can be a chin-scratcher.
You can call or find dealer and look at what is on offer.
And some manufacturers answer the phone.
I could not find Velodyne, but Martin Logan has a bunch of dealers around Sarasota, and Vandersteen in Miami or Atlanta.
My pre-amplifier has two outputs: RCA and XLR, so I can run the RCA to the amplifier and the XLR to the subwoofer, or vice-versa, as the amplifier has both RCA and XLR inputs.
That works if the sub needs an RCA input and has its own filtering scheme.
I have not been overly shy in liking the approach of pulling the signal off of the binding posts.
I was leaning towards a lower crossover for the HPF, something like 80 Hz, or maybe 60-80 Hz, to keep the midrange in the ESL’s
Again I have not been shy in advocating the 1st order (6 dB/octave) at 100Hz.
You attach the HPF at the amp side of the cable.
Attach the line level cables to the speaker posts.
Turn some pots on the back to set the levels.
and then you’re I’m done.
I would suggest seeing what the fuss is about, and if you go with a Velodyne or ML, then you at least went in with the eyes open.
Mijostyn, Speaking for myself only, I am curious to learn what you use to effect steep crossover points in the digital domain.
I didn't state it previously, but the crossover is a matter of trade-offs. Mijo makes the case for a very steep hi-pass filter. The rationale for that is you want as much as possible to reduce the burden on the main speakers to produce bass frequencies. To do that, of course a steep HPF slope is in order. The problem is that filters with very steep slopes are very likely to color the upper frequencies (because a lot of parts are needed to effect a steep slope, each of which is likely to reduce fidelity) and to introduce phase shift. (I am not convinced phase shift is such an audible problem if kept moderate, especially with our dipolar radiators.) One reason I am intrigued by the Pass XVR1 is that it can do a 24db/octave slope with Linkwitz-Riley character. In L-R, the phase shift is no worse than that of a Butterworth 6db/octave filter. The XVR1 is a stand alone electronic crossover; in theory you would use it with a subwoofer that had no built-in crossover and which was driven by a separate outboard amplifier. Does anyone know of a commercial subwoofer with built in x-over and amplification that also affords a L-R filter? On the other hand, selecting a HPF with 6db/octave slope, whether done actively (using whatever HPS is built in to your chosen high end subwoofer) or passively, using a capacitor in series with the amplifier input is least likely to do harm to the main speaker's output. Obviously, in a given case with lots of $$$ having been spent, a steep HPF might sound great. That's why I am curious to know what Mijo uses for a digital filter ahead of his speakers.
drbond, for your amplifiers with a 22K ohm input impedance, about an 0.1uF capacitor would give you a HPF at 80Hz, 6db/octave, assuming a single-ended input. My choice among capacitors I have heard would probably be a Russian SSG silver mica capacitor,
Dear @drbond : As you go followwed reading through google you will make more false assumptions as that one that Velodyne are more for multi-channel HT. Your ststement is not only false but wrong Nothing bad with that because you are or better yet you want to be a newcomer to the sub's room/system integration.
ML is no better than Velodyne: the cone are made by aluminum even Paradigm carbon X and the kind of fiberglass by Velodyne surpass the ML and as almost all subs ML uses too las D amps but there is something crucial that in this thread already was posted and that crucial issue is that we add subwoofers in our high end room/system first to make the IMD and THD goes as lower we can and this issue is to improve severely the whole room/system quality performance ML only bla, bla, bla, in its site ( I know that this bla, bla is something you like it. Ok but means almost nothing ) but with out facts/measures no other but Magico shows its sub's THD a 20hz full SPL.
Velodyne 12" has a better and lower measured frequency response than the ML. So What's your deal about?
Do you think that all those subwofeers manufacturers that use clas D amplifiers all those amps are almost the same ? yes? wrong all those amps are different because each used woofer is different, its self unique characteristics demads that the amplifier can achieve what that woofer needs to shows at its best.
No, your class A or AB you own can't even the woofer needs and this means higher distortions.
@mijostyn is the " worst " ( no offense. ) audiophile gentleman to take it as an example because what he found out was the " holly grail " on that bass rangebut that " holly grail " is only his " holly grail " . He likes to play with his computer/digital that at the ends he used as a very advanced digital equalizer because he manipulated the system frequency response on some discrete frequency to tame the tone color to the tone color that likes mijostyn. Fine with me but not my cup of tea because it does not make sense to put all his efforst in analogue TT/TONEAR/CArtridges and the like when the system signal at the end the signal coming from his speakers/subs are both digital that pass through two filters: ADC/DAC. Again fine with me.
Silver Duelund cap?, ( no offense please ) but you are the typical audiophile that as higher its price has to be better when that Duelund is no more that a mid-fi capacitor. You can read my capacitor thread where you find out several links and first hand experiences with information why the Duelund is mid-fi and what is the role of a cap that has nothing to do with its price. You are a novice too on caps., even some manufaturers of speakers too.
My opinion is that your first step in the " rigth " direction to trial sub's is not the external HPF but a complete subwoofer unit as the 12" Velodyne ones.
My pre-amplifier has two outputs: RCA and XLR, so I can run the RCA to the amplifier and the XLR to the subwoofer, or vice-versa, as the amplifier has both RCA and XLR inputs. I was leaning towards a lower crossover for the HPF, somthing like 80 Hz, or maybe 60-80 Hz, to keep the midrange in the ESL’s. The input impedance of the Ypsilon Hyperion is 22 kOhm, and I was looking at a silver capacitor to make the HPF happen, although, I’ve got much to learn about the science and the curves.
I figure I could use a digital LPF crossover for the subwoofers, since the signal to the bass might not be so noticeably affected by the change.
drbond , you will hate any analog high pass filter.
^That^ is a bold statement.
And how do we reconcile the fact that most speakers have a crossover in them, and those are analogue?
(Or are we throwing that out because the ESLs may not?)
While I generally appreciate digital, when one has a nice analogue system, there is an allure in keeping the front end free of digital.
To operate a subwoofer correctly all filters have to be digital. The highest quality units now use 64 bit floating point processors and have none of the issues older units had like the volume control problem. Conversions in and out of 24/192 are invisible
The idea that a sample rate and bit depth used for recording bats and other high frequencies is “required”, starts to fly in the face of logic.
Couple that with people tolerating many % of distortion in the lowest registers makes that paragraph a bit absurd.
I like digital as much as the next fellow, but one could just about do the math with a slide rule or abacus and keep up, and the idea of 64-bit math for the signal that has the highest amplitude in the spectrum means with probably could do it with 8-bits and 500 samples/second.
But if you are saying that the HPF for the main speakers should be 24bit/192k or something like that, then I have no argument. One pretty much needs that to keep the HP stuff that is going to the main speakers sounding good at 20kHz and beyond.
… can a high grade analog capacitor (e.g. silver Duelund CAST) be used for the HPF to the ESL with good results?
Of a battery biased HPF.
Is your connection from preamp to amp RCA or balanced?
(I am guessing XLR if you ran Atmasphere amps at some point.)
I cannot figure out a way to post a photo of the inside of my Vandy M5-HP (high pass filters), and I have the older RCAs as well. The XLR ones have a row of dip switches for matching to the amp’s input impedance, which then makes the knee of the curve exactly at 100Hz.
I am not overly “bowled over” with the battery biasing cables, but perhaps there is something to it. And the cotton and silk covered cables do not have the dielectric polarising issues… and people rave about them… so maybe it makes a difference.
What are the higher end passive sub woofers on the market? (I do have an extra couple of amplifiers (class A and AB) sitting around).
The powered subs are more of a system, and there is an allure to having a sub that either comes on when the rest of the system does, or has some efficient amp that can be left on.
Other than power outages, mine was on for 20 years in the old house.
I rarely even thought about it… it just sat in the corner.
While I am intending on some DIY jobs for the new house, a lot of that is for Feng Shui and WAF… and there not a lot of choice in my location nor places to find them in the wild or in shops. In FLA they should be “springing up” somewhere.
I only chose Velodyne as an example of a good company that’s been making and selling subwoofers for at least 30 years. I am aware that for very big bucks Magico and others also make subwoofers. I’ve never heard them and the question was how to incorporate a subwoofer with minimum effort not what’s the best subwoofer. I don’t live in your world of absolute certainty and perfection but you’re entitled to your opinion. However it would be nice if you acknowledged that you’re stating an opinion or in this case a set of various opinions.
Understanding that digital LPF is better for sub woofers, can a high grade analog capacitor (e.g. silver Duelund CAST) be used for the HPF to the ESL with good results? What’s the main disadvantage to using an analog HPF via an in line capacitor and a digital LPF to a subwoofer?
What are the higher end passive sub woofers on the market? (I do have an extra couple of amplifiers (class A and AB) sitting around).
@drbond, you will hate any analog high pass filter. To operate a subwoofer correctly all filters have to be digital. The highest quality units now use 64 bit floating point processors and have none of the issues older units had like the volume control problem. Conversions in and out of 24/192 are invisible.
@lewmcorrect. IMHO the Velodyns are mid Fi. The Balanced Force MLs are superior in every way The Magicos Q series, also balanced force, are the best on the market because of their extremely stiff, heavy enclosures. Because the electronics in all subwoofers are sort of second rate I prefer passive ones. You can only get these in kit form or build them yourself. Otherwise you can just bypass the electronics. This is mandatory for the filter section. Some class D amps are tolerable for subwoofer duty but the best bass I have heard comes from A, AB amplifiers with vanishingly low output impedances. The JC 1 is a killer subwoofer amp. These produce way too much heat to put in an enclosure. Only Class D amps are efficient enough for that.
because of the quality components of the pre- and amp, I am leaning towards an capacitor HPF, as opposed to running it through the sub, which just has a standard 6db per octave HPF, which would just be a standard, probably low-grade capacitor, correct? A silver Duelund CAST capacitor in line with the two components, and then a separate line to the subs: it seems that Martin Logan subs might fit in the system better, since they also make ESL, and are more designed for a two channel system. It seems that the Velodyne is for multi-channel home theatre use.
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