Phono Stage upgrade to complement Dohmann Helix One Mk 2

@rauliruegas 

Thanks for sharing the recommendation of the DSA phono III.  I think a few others had recommended that one as well, and I'm sure it's an excellent phono stage, but the first sentence of the review sums it up for me:  it is not the sonic equal of the CH Precision P1. . . 

Thanks. 

 

@rauliruegas

I personally have not investigated the purported benefits of a current design vs voltage design in the phono stage, however, most on this forum seem to indicate that a current design will be more precise and detailed due to the effect on the MC cartridge, if I’m not mistaken.
I personally, hold no bias towards either design, but I am simply looking to purchase the best sounding phono stage that isn’t insanely priced, given my system. No doubt, I will have to audition different items before purchase in order to make a reliable decision.
Thanks.

@drbond  : No, not current design but very good performers.

 

This Agoner just bougth two phono stages one voltage and one current designs and at least his preview of a top current design was not very good against the other new voltage design unit:

I think that if you are biased to the current designs you need to listen the unit you want against a voltage new unit in the same room/system and with your cartridges.

The advantage with today good top voltage designs is that we can't go wrong with.

R.

@rauliruegas 

Thanks for your phono stage recommendations.  I haven't looked at the details of those three that you recommended.  Are they all current based phono stages?  
Thanks. 

No one of them in your price range but ....! ! ! ! 

 

R.

 

Please don't distress because its extremely low price.

R.

@drbond  : Why don't go with the myjostin phono stage advise the : L20?

 

R.

@drbond  : " most solid state amplifiers, as I'm sure you're aware is dramatically geometric, and that's why solid state can sound so bad at the extremes. "

I respect your opinion and maybe you are talking of SS electronics coming from the " old " times. TODAY what makes the differences for the better in SS over tube alternative are precisely the excellent wide and accurated frequency extremes ! ! !

along its very low noise and distortion levels with extremely low output impedance.  

R.

 

@drbond 

@lewm ​​​​@rauliruegas are always disagreeing over something or other - lol

if you must by tube try a Tron. Supremely musical. Graham Tricker makes some very fine valve gear (and i don't like valves). I think they have 2 inputs. I dont think they have adjustable curves though.

This thread that was supposed to be about top of the line phono stages has temporarily morphed into a thread about amplifiers. . .

@rauliruegas

Of course I was aware of the so-called "weakness" of the Ypsilon Hyperions before I bought them. Importantly, the distortion that is graphed in your picture is linear, and only at very high frequency. Distortion in musical instruments is also rather linear, so the amplifier seems well designed for music.  (Distortion in most solid state amplifiers, as I'm sure you're aware is dramatically geometric, and that's why solid state can sound so bad at the extremes.)

By your critique of transformers, it seems that you need to learn how transformers actually work.

I suppose a good summary of this last part of this discussion is that we don’t know as much as some people think that we know, and that includes engineers and doctors.

Since you are the sole repository of "common sense", in your opinion, and since your opinions are all over this thread, why would you say there is no common sense here?

I shouldn't bother to respond, but I cannot resist pointing out that I said nothing, zero, in support of or in criticism of the Hyperion amplifiers, because I did admit from the beginning that I had never heard a pair, much less even seen a pair.  I didn't even know whether they were solid state or tube based until now.  I have heard a Ypsilon phono stage in my neighbor's system with which I was very familiar, and it was stellar in that context.  Drawbacks are that it provides only 39db of phono gain and so far as I know has only one pair of inputs.

I did compare the JC1s to my Atma-sphere amplifiers because I briefly owed a pair of JC1s and have always owned the Atma-sphere amps, it seems.  And I compared them on my home system. My question to Mijostyn about the context in which he made a comparison of the JC1 to the Hyperion is a perfectly valid one, and it's a question of the kind you often ask as well, when someone offers an opinion on a cartridge.  In fact, for anyone to say "I like A better than B" without giving some context is worthless. Mijostyn was kind enough to respond to the question; your judgement of the quality of my question (argumentative) was uncalled for. I wasn't addressing you.

lewm, certainly it has to do with phono stage because this unit will be inserted in an audio system. You confirm what I said: no common sense to help OP in this thread or any other thread. As you are accusto to: always argumentative. No problem.

In one of the last theads in this forum the OP ask for advise to change his cartridge and his budget was 2K-3K.

Well, the very first post was from a gentleman with common sense trying to help the OP:

 

" You would be better off buying a better quality phono stage first................."

 

Followed by other two audiophiles with a +1.  This is what I'm talking about: HELP other people.

 

R.

This is not the only example where a reviewer speaks wonders on an audio item and measurements says NO it’s not true.

 

I remember that years ago that same magazyne and same gentlemans made the review/measurements of the over 60K Vitus phono stage and the reviewer said that the unit had really good and tigth low bass but that unit ( if I remmeber ) design use the IEC RIAA eq. that makes that from around 50hz the bass goes very quich down/fall. There are more examples/facts.

 

Measures can tell us a lot of things on any audio electronics items IF we are willing to accept it. That IF is the big problem for we audiophiles/MUSIC lovers.

 

R.

Fremer is listening without measuring. Atkinson is measuring without critical listening. Thus they offer two entirely different perspectives. The reader needs to make up his own mind based on the total information.

This sidebar has nothing to do with phono stages.

Dear @drbond : " However, the data can only reveal what we currently measure. I think it’s important to consider that we don’t know enough about sound to know everything to measure or how to measure it fully. "

 

Yes, data is what we measure. What’s wrong with that? and yes till today does not exist measurement proccess that can tell us how an amp can sound but this fact does not means that today we can diminish measures like in the past like the corrupted AHEE teached to us.

J.Atkinson is not a simple mesurement gentleman he was an analog lover till 10-15 years ago when he learned about and left it, it’s a very well regarded reviewer and it’s one with a lot more honesty than other reviewers ( he can’t recomend the Hyperions when MF did it. What a difference ! ! ! ) and it’s a recording engineer.

It’s ovbious that any gentleman that spends 90K+ in an audio item be at defensive attitude against facts with not very good quality design in that audio item.

 

But this is not only about measurements but about common sense. Ypsilon likes transformers and almost all is transformer coupled and that fact means that the audio signal travel for those " hundreds " of meters of transformers wires that certainly damage that audio signal and I said common sense because almost a rule is that we connect the tonearm to the phono stage input with the shorter IC cable to let at minimum degradation signal issues and here we are speaking of 1m. now imagine if the audio signal must travel over " hundred " of wire meters. Higher distortions that you like and is fine with me.

Common sense tells not spend high K $$$ to achieve top quality level in the cartridge signal only for that valuable cartridge signal be destroyed in the next system links. That’s all and is up to you because in this thread all gentlemans already gave you a lot of choices many of them with out that " common sense ".

Btw, FR on the Hyperion against load speaker impedance . This is a fact not imagination or subjective:

 

Anyway, enough.

R.

 

 

 

 

@rauliruegas , my feelings exactly. I am going with whatever produces the best results. You should look into Channel D's Pure Vinyl program. It is a lot of fun. You can compare different versions of a recording and different equipment in the analog chain, cartridges and tonearms. Very enlightening.

@lewm , I heard Hyperions on big Wilsons in comparison with Boulder 2150s. I preferred the Boulders. The two most popular amps with SoundLabs users are Atma-Sphere MA 2s and  JC 1s for whatever it is worth.

@drbond I have never heard or seen a Lamm amp so I can not comment but you are very wrong about the JC 1+. John Curl's point with the JC 1 was that he can make a top amp for much more reasonable money. I wish I could send you a pair. There is much more involved in the pricing of audio gear than the quality of the parts and engineering.  What is left has nothing to do with the sound quality of the equipment. John Curl has a record that is hard to ignor. People do not want to hear that an $18,000 amp is better engineered than their $90,000 amp. So be it. My personal goal is to get Atma-Shere MA 2's a $45,000 amp which due to their design are a perfect mate for Soundlabs speakers. I would love to get MA 3s but at $145,000 I would never get them by my wife. On the other hand with the price of propane we could use the extra heat next Winter:-)

@dover

I have to agree with you: measurements are only a guide. I am personally not convinced that we know enough about hearing to rely definitively on measurements. For instance, I have played several stringed instruments, and I have observed that when one string is played, it’s not just that string that vibrates and intonates sound, but you also get a minor vibration of any strings in that same note, usually one octave higher, which would be the second harmonic, if I’m not mistaken. Interestingly, this is the same harmonic that the Ypsilon Hyperions accentuate when pushed to the limit, which sounded very good (in fact, the best I have ever heard); however, the measurements demonstrate this as distortion.

@mijostyn

Yes, I’m sure the JC1+ are great amplifiers, but I doubt they could hold much to either the Lamm M2.2 (which, by the way, are also excellent amplifiers) or the Ypsilon Hyperion. If someone wants to ship me a pair to central Florida, I’l listen with an open mind and report back. . .

@rauliruegas

You are no doubt very knowledgeable, and probably know more about specifications and engineering than most people here. However, the data can only reveal what we currently measure. I think it’s important to consider that we don’t know enough about sound to know everything to measure or how to measure it fully. While analyzing data is definitely a strength of yours, I’m of the opinion that the data can sometimes be misleading, and incomplete, and listening to the Hyperions seems to confirm my opinion, despite Atkinson’s measurements.

 

Now, if anyone can recommend any other current-based phono stages, with two MC inputs, I’m all ears!

lewm always argument something with " wrong " questions as this to myjos:

" You have heard the JC1 and the Hyperion driving the same pair of Sound Lab speakers in the same room with the same upstream gear? "

First mijos was not talking of the old JC1 but today JC1+ that's way different and maybe he never read the MF review along the measurements on the Hyperion amps where we can read:

by MF:

" 

No doubt the single tube in the Hyperion's signal path subtly greased the musical proceedings with a smooth yet transparent overlay of richness. Having become acclimated in recent years years to the sound of the darTZeel NHB-458, which is less generous in the upper bass and lower midrange (detractors of solid-state designs might describe its sound as "thin") and is faster in the transient realm (detractors might say "overly and unrealistically sharply drawn"), the gross distinctions between these two great performers were easily audible..........

But even while the contours of the new sound were still easily definable and the differences between the two amplifiers were still clear...."

 

and JA measurements comments:

 

" 

While the Hyperion's input impedance is specified as a moderately high 47k ohms, my measurements indicated a lower value at low and middle frequencies: just over 21k ohms for both the balanced and unbalanced inputs. This is still high enough not to be an issue, but at 20kHz the impedance dropped to just 3k ohms, which will be marginal with some preamplifiers, rolling off the top octave. Fortunately, this shouldn't have affected Michael Fremer's listening, given his associated equipment: His Ypsilon PST-100 preamplifier has a low output impedance, and his darTZeel preamplifier has a fairly uniform, if high, output impedance across the audioband.

Despite the Hyperion's large number of output devices, its output impedance was relatively high for a solid-state design, at 0.35 ohm. As a result, the modification of the amplifier's frequency response with our standard simulated loudspeaker reached ±0.25dB (fig.1, gray trace). Of more concern is the ultrasonic peak in the Hyperion's response, centered between 40 and 50kHz and reaching 2dB in height. The peak gave rise to a single damped cycle of oscillation with a 10kHz squarewave (fig.2) and was not affected by the load impedance, which suggests that it occurs before the output stage, perhaps at the input transformer. 

 

 However, as figs. 3–5 reveal, at our usual definition of clipping, at which the THD+noise reaches 1%, the Hyperion delivered 239W into 8 ohms (23.8dBW), 400W into 4 ohms (23dBW), and 315W into 2 ohms (19dBW). It did meet its specified power when I relaxed the definition of clipping to between 1.4% and 2% THD+N, but these are disappointing results.

 

Of more concern in these graphs is the Hyperion's linear increase in distortion with increasing power output above a few hundred milliwatts. While the THD+N percentage remains acceptably low below 10W or so, above that power, and especially at low frequencies, it reaches levels that will be audible with continuous pure tones...

When MF comments on "the immediately obvious added harmonic and textural richness," that it is what I would expect from this distortion signature. In addition, the Hyperion's intermodulation distortion was not as low as I would have liked.

Given that, it is not an amplifier that I would recommend, especially given its price. While I have found that power amplifiers tend to sound different from one another, I feel they should be engineered to be as close to neutrally balanced as possible, and not designed to produce a "tailored" sound, as the Hyperion seems to be.—

 

Obviously dover made the same that lewm in this specific matter. As I said, knowledge levels is the " name of the game ".

R.

 

 

Enjoy the Music reviewer on the OP model:

 

"  The company claims that the speaker requires only 60 Watts to perform to its high standards, though my experience sheds some doubt on the usefulness of this figure. The Pass Labs A-250 Class A amplifier, which was otherwise a tonally wonderful match for the speaker, was unable to control the speaker's bottom end satisfactorily. In this regard, the Merrill VERITAS mono-bloc amplifiers at 400/watts a side proved far more to the speaker's liking. "

At the end really don't care about because I don't own those speakers but I listened and are very good ones.

R.

 

R.

Specifically, I have found that I favor OTL tube amplifiers to drive full-range ESL speakers.  This category does not include conventional transformer coupled tube amplifiers.  Why add another coupling transformer where it is not needed? A further qualification is that I made my original judgements based on ESLs that were available in the 70s and 80s, to include KLH9s and Quad 57s, and a few others.  Later on in history, several speaker makers, SL included, made a decision to design crossover networks or input stages for their ESLs that made them a more favorable load for solid state amplifiers.  I have not liked such speakers as much as I liked the early high impedance ESLs, whether driven by tubes or by SS amplification.  For another example, the very first M-L ESL, the CLS, with a 16 ohm impedance, was made in heaven for the Futterman amplifiers I then owned.  I enjoyed them for several years. Then M-L messed with the input stage to lower impedance for SS amplifiers, and the resulting CLS IIs lost all the glory of the original, regardless of how you drove it. I am very happy having removed the crossover parts from my SL speakers that wasted amplifier power across a resistor and that artificially lowered input Z to favor SS amplifiers.  I am quite happy with what I have now in my PX845s, and I commend Dr West for modifying his speaker line in accordance with solving the problem they had.  I plead guilty to all of the above.  Now, will you admit that the very thought of a vacuum tube makes you have conniptions?  The JC1s plain and simple do not hold a candle to the Atma-sphere amplifiers I own for driving my current version of the 845PXs; if they were better sounding, I would have kept them.  Believe it or don't.

@lewm  : You can listen the Devialet  audio electronics. I don't know if today still handled phono stage unit but I heard it and was really good.

Exist other manufacturers that have a digital RIAA in its design.

 

Btw, the today JC is really different to the old ones and every body knows that you are married with tubes in that specific sytem link. Nothing wrong with me.

 

R.

I, for one, would welcome the opportunity to audition a top quality phono stage that does RIAA in the digital domain.  There's nothing inviolate about the precision capacitors, resistors, and/or inductors that are necessary for accurate RIAA in the analog domain. But I need to hear it.

Still wondering whether Mijo directly compared the Hyperion to the JC1.  I owned a pair of JC1s and ran them on my Sound Lab speakers before I later made a major change to the SL input circuit.  In the original configuration of the SL crossover, my Atma-sphere amps had a tough time with the very low impedance offered by the old SL crossover at midrange frequencies (2 ohms minimum at about 2kHz and only 5 ohms at around 500 Hz).  Also, the resistor in the hi pass filter sucked amplifier power at those very frequencies.  In that condition, the JC1 had no problem, but I did not care for the overall gestalt. (This goes back to Dover's statement that you choose an amplifier to suit a speaker; I totally agree.)  The JC1s were better suited to drive the old SL backplate than were my Atmas, in the midrange.  When I later modified the crossover drastically, I eliminated that impedance dip, and the Atmas sounded far better than the JC1s.  Just my personal experience. Presumably, drbond owns SLs with the later revised version of the crossover, which was implemented by Dr West in response to this same problem. I can say nothing about the sound of the Hyperions; I never even saw a pair.  But the JC1s are good but not transcendent, in my particular experiment.

Dear @mijostyn : "" has way more features than I will ever need or use. It looks beautifully made. It's "Hum and Noise" spec is very misleading. "Equivalent input noise below full output 22 Hz - 22kHz: - 137 dBu." I have no idea what that means. "

Yes, me neither and about the spec figure I posted because you posted before the same kind of noise figure for the L20 and that's all.

In the other side and talking of the L20:

" By virtue of his feeling that digital RIAA correction is superior to analog filters "

With today digital technology I agree with him. You can outperform easily RIAA deviation accuracy in the digital domain and you can " do " anything you want it with digital that you can't in analogue because you have to pay the " price " doing in analogue.

Problem with inverse RIAA eq is that the anlog lovers just can't digest that the beloved LPs be listened through a DAC in the phono stage. A really complex whole audio industry issue for say the least.

 

R.

Dear @dover : " this was posted by @lohanimal and I said agree with his post:

" Many a reviewer has very specific loves/prejudices - Martin Colloms loves Naim and Linn - Roy Gregory anything stocked by Audiofreaks (he had to answer letters about this in hi fi plus) - Michael Fremer (anything new and stupendously expensive) . "

That gentleman always does that and is in " love " with the " week audio item " till discover the next " marvel ".

Why don’t ask him to make a comparison between the amps he has rigth now against the JC1+ and ask too for absolute honesty about.

Expen$ive is far away to be a synonymous of quality in audio items as the ones we are talking about.

There is a CH P1 issue that @mijostyn mentioned and that I already was thinking before:

" The CH was also on my list but it fell off due to price and the admission that it’s stock power supply is not good enough. They will be happy to sell you a second one so now you have paid for two power supplies instead of the one you should have had ...."

When we are talking of first rate quality design what happened with CH should not be happened through the original design and specially in the power supply that is designed and calculated extremely carefully to cover all " fundamental and not fundamental issues ". Power supply is the most important characteristic in a SS phonolinepreamp specially at that $$$$.

CH ask all the P1 unit owners to spend additional 17K dollars for the power supply that should be came in the original design and when the owner spend those 17K for the new power supply the original power supply that the owners already paid for is totally out of operation. Incredible and more incredible is that owners are so happy only because are gentlemans with a lot of money to spend. Such is life. Of course CH are really happy with.

Btw, there is one critical and way important issue in audio that $$$ can't buy and it's KNOWLEDGE top levels.

 

R.

 

You have heard the JC1 and the Hyperion driving the same pair of Sound Lab speakers in the same room with the same upstream gear?

@dover , you make the same mistake underestimating John Curl. The Hyperion is significantly softer in the bass than the JC 1+, muddy would be the appropriate term. The JC 1+ is more aggressive sounding but still manages to come of like a tube amplifier. If you demoed the two together you would never be able to justify spending $90,000 of the Hyperion. I said that wrong. You might be able to justify it but I would not.

@drbond , You make a big mistake underestimating John Curl. The JC 1+ uses totally first class components and very slick internal layout. It is less expensive because it is mass manufactured in Taiwan. Robots do a much better job than humans and we all know that surface mount is better than through hole. There are many people who think the JC 1+ is one the best amplifiers made regardless of price. 

@rauliruegas, FM Acoustics has a very colorful web site. The 233 has way more features than I will ever need or use. It looks beautifully made. It's "Hum and Noise" spec is very misleading. "Equivalent input noise below full output 22 Hz - 22kHz: - 137 dBu." I have no idea what that means. I know what "A weighted signal to noise ration" means. It is certain that they are two different ways of characterizing noise and can not be compared. The Seta's signal to noise ration even improves the lower the impedance of the cartridge. 

@lewm , I totally agree that Channel D's web site is fractured and should be re-done. Rob Robinson is a computer geek and they view life differently than normal people. However, your comments on the companies name and product's name are trivial to say the least. By virtue of his feeling that digital RIAA correction is superior to analog filters he has already lost the analog audiophiles. No great loss IMHO. I plan on trying it when I get the unit as I already have the programming. Don't worry. I also ordered the analog circuit. 

Well the Ypsilon Hyperion monos got a blisteringly good review in both Absolute Sound and Stereophile. Michael Fremer concluded that the Ypsilon passive preamp was as transparent as his reference Dartzeel. He also concluded that the Hyperion monos were as good as the Dartzeel 458 mono’s

"Side 2 was mind-bogglingly better than I’d ever heard it, all of the inner instrumental voices clearly revealed. Especially amazing was the return of the trumpet call, backed by delicate, barely audible woodwinds that were now clearly delineated—and, a few minutes later, the triangle, each stroke’s attack, sustain, and decay convincingly reproduced with great deliberateness and delicacy. And string pizzicati were perfection." MF review

It is clear that the Ypsilon PST100/Hyperion monos are superb by any standard.

In my experience the most compelling systems are those where the owner has selected a speaker they like, and then they found the best amplifier to drive those chosen speakers. In the case of @drbond he owns Atmasphere OTL’s, CJ , and Lamm M2.2 mono amps and has concluded the Ypsilon Hyperions are superb in his system on his Soundlab speakers. I don’t doubt this having heard many amps on Soundlab A1’s, both tube and solid state, they are very sensitive to amplifier choice.

You cannot select an amplifier based on specifications, they are only a guide. Of course if one partakes in copious amounts of tequila and electric puha then perhaps a JC1+ might be perceived to be SOTA

Now back to phono stage options....

 

 

Dear @drbond  : "  I've never heard music any better than with the Ypsilon amplifier and pre-amplifier.  Even with my "lowly" Manley Steelhead connected to they Ypsilons, "

Well that could be because you do not listened something really better, that's all and does not means Ypsilon is what you think i's. Even that now you could question the validity of my posts you can be sure that I know what I'm talking about and more important I know why I'm talking in that " dramatic " way. I only want to help and that you stop to spend money instead to invest in true high quality performance level audio items.

 

" I highly doubt the JC1+ would produce anything close to what I currently hear.  ", well one reason is that the JC have a way better design. @lohanimal  agree with all your post.

 

R.

 

Many a reviewer has very specific loves/prejudices - Martin Colloms loves Naim and Linn - Roy Gregory anything stocked by Audiofreaks (he had to answer letters about this in hi fi plus) - Michael Fremer (anything new and stupendously expensive) 

And most reviewers will wax poetic as out the positives, or maybe “they” find the reviewer that will be positive.

So it is a bit of a feedback-loop as negative reviews, do not result in a negative reviewer getting more products to review that “could be” heavy on the negative side.

@drbond 

funny you say that about @rauliruegas  - i always find my discussions with him to be very productive. It might just be he is not a fan of Ypsilon - I've never them. Please remember we all have our own natural prejudices - me I am not a fan of KSL/Kondo - Zanden and Dartzeel - all well loved brands and I'm sure to many ears are mana from heaven - I find them either mushy or too coloured. 

Many a reviewer has very specific loves/prejudices - Martin Colloms loves Naim and Linn - Roy Gregory anything stocked by Audiofreaks (he had to answer letters about this in hi fi plus) - Michael Fremer (anything new and stupendously expensive) 

@rauliruegas 

While I appreciate your recommendations, I will have to admit that such dramatic and extreme comments such as you have mentioned about the Ypsilon products make me question the validity of some of your perspectives.  I've never heard music any better than with the Ypsilon amplifier and pre-amplifier.  Even with my "lowly" Manley Steelhead connected to they Ypsilons, the performers sound like they're in my room, so I'm looking forward to hearing how much improvement there is with an upgraded phono stage.  

Perhaps you're correct that another amplifier, like a DartZeel, would perform better than the Ypsilon, perhaps not; perhaps they just render slightly different presentations.  I highly doubt the JC1+ would produce anything close to what I currently hear.  

Regardless, please just stick with discussion about phono stages on this thread. 
Thanks. 

Dear @drbond  : It's useless and even could be futile that you spend thousands of big dollars for a top phono stage as many of the named in the thread only for that excellent quality level coming from the phono stage been destroyed/ruined by your Ypsilon preamp truly poor quality levels against any of the phono stages named here.

If you are not willing to change youfr preamp then you have not worried really wich Phono stage is better because at the end what you will listen be the terrible Ypsilon and all those wires transformers that degrade the signal but it's not only that but its terrble frequency bandwindt and several other critical issues.

 

Then which your point or the other gentlemans ones?

My point is that you need at least the same quality levels/design in the line preamp than in the phono stage. Same for your amps where I gave you the advise to go for the JC1+ monoblocks that makes a in heaven mate with the Soundlabs.

 

R.

Dear @pani  : Mi advise to the OP was and is for the 223 that has 62db on gain and even can go higher if the customer needs and ask to FMA for it.

@mijostyn , you like the numbers and the FMA 223 beats the noise levl of the Channel L20 with its incredible: -137 dBu at full output ! !

At the FMA quality levels it has no single problem to compete and even could outperforms current mode units.

Anyway the 223 is only an OP option good enough as other posted alternatives.

 

R.

What strikes me about "Channel D" and their many products is that they need a PR guy.  First, the name of the product line (Channel D) is non-descript if not misleading (because it makes one think of Class D amplifiers, which are not exactly a la mode with high end audiophiles). Second, the naming of the different phono stages of ascending value makes no coherent sense.  And on top of that, reading the blurbs on their website to understand their design philosophy, I don't get a clear picture.  It's too bad, because their products might be great and might suffer for lack of proper promotion.

@drbond , The CH was also on my list but it fell off due to price and the admission that it's stock power supply is not good enough. They will be happy to sell you a second one so now you have paid for two power supplies instead of the one you should have had t begin with. The L20 gives you the best possible power supply up front, batteries that are disconnected from the line during play. The trickery does not end there either. To reduce noise to extraordinary low levels the L20 uses 20 of the Seta L's gain modules, 10 in each channel. I think this is a computer trick. You increase gain without increasing noise levels and the signal to noise ratio increases. In MkII form it now has multiple inputs and will also run in Voltage mode for higher impedance cartridges. I have no idea why you would want to. With cartridges like the Lyra Atlas SL, Ortofon Verissimo and the My Sonic Platinum Signature there is no need to look elsewhere. (that is going to cause some frowns) The sad part is that there is no way I'll get 60K for a phono stage by my wife. She had a heart attack when I mentioned $25k for a projector. So, I'll have to do with the lowly Seta L Plus. Same circuit with two gain modules, fewer bells and whistles noisier but still very quiet. Could be worse.

@dover 

Thanks for sharing those links.  I'll have to review them this weekend, when I have a few free moments.  

Thanks also for your recommendation of the van den Hul Grail SE+, as a current-based phono stage.  That seems to be a contender.  @kennyc also recommended that one. 

@lewm 

Thanks for bringing up a shortcoming of the FM Acoustics phono stage.  Since my pre-amplifier is Ypsilon, and I run it in the passive mode, I would need a phono stage with higher gain settings. 

@mijostyn 

Thanks for the recommendation of the Channel D Seta L20, which is another current-based phono stage.  I'll have to admit that I'm most skeptical about this one, though, as I'm not sure if it's really going to be worth the $60k, if another one for $30-40k is just as good. . . 

So far, I would have to place my leading contenders as all current-based phono stages: 
CH Precision P1

van den Hul Grail SE+

Channel D Seta L20

I really appreciate everyone's contribution to my learning experience, as I would really otherwise have no idea where to start.  

 

I am cautious to bring this up but given the caliber of your table and arm, have you ever listened to the DS Audio.  I had a dps turntable with Schroder arm, and an Ortofon MA 90 with a Tom Evans Groove SRX +, until I heard the DS Audio.  I was stunned.  So much so that I got out of moving coil and now have Grand Master and Emm labs DS-EQ1.  The two would be the price of many hi end phono stages.  I realize you have a lot invested, and it won't lend itself to 2 arms but if you ever get the chance do listen.  I, in no way, am trying to suggest the other choices aren't great.  Best of luck

@drbond , you just bought one of the very best if not the best turntable on the market. There are many turntables that are much more expensive that you could have gone for so, you were also interested in value. I also assume that the Dohmann's design and the reputation of it's designer led you to the purchase. 

I look at things the same way. Here is how it goes with phono stages. All my favorite cartridges are low impedance moving coil cartridges. I am not sure why that is but, so be it. These cartridges are low output and require a very quiet phono stage with a lot of gain unless you run the cartridges in current mode then the lower the impedance the higher the gain resulting in a better signal to noise ratio. The magnetic braking on the cantilever is far less resulting in better tracking than you would get with a voltage mode phono stage. All the current mode phono stages I know of are solid state. This limits my search to solid state current mode stages. I think Rob Robinson of Channel D is a brilliant designer as I think of Mark Dohmann. If you want to spend $60,000 than the Seta L20 is IMHO the way to go. It is a great example of American ingenuity. I will not spend that much on a phono stage. I went for the Seta L Plus wired for current mode. If I wind up with a second tonearm I'll get a second one.  

@clearthinker 
you are spot on of why I purchased a VDH Grail SB- excellent sonics, very low noise floor, long track record, bargain priced in used market.  I’m hoping for additional brand synergy with my VDH Colibri Grand Cru.

Pani, if you mate the FM122 with a linestage having 12-18db of gain, you’d be in a good place to drive most amplifiers with most LOMC cartridges. (At the far end of that range, you’re adding 18db of gain which would be very capable.) Or did you mean to say that the FM Acoustics linestages have about that much gain? If so, many other linestages also have gain in that range.  But a passive linestage or an active one with zero added gain need not apply.

If shopping for a current mode phono stage, my advice is to try to find out exactly what is the input impedance. You want it to be as close to zero as possible, but of course it cannot be zero, because that would represent a short circuit, like a mute switch, for the cartridge. I would look for 10 ohms or less, to take the most advantage of the current output of a LOMC. Likewise, you can estimate the current output of the cartridge by dividing its voltage output by its internal resistance. Right away this tells you that LOMCs with high-ish internal resistance, say greater than 10 ohms, are not going to work so efficiently with a current mode design. So, for one of the lowest voltage output cartridges ever made, the Ortofon MC2000, at .05mV, it has an internal resistance of 2 ohms. Thus it makes ~25 micro-amps of current. Do the calculation for other LOMCs and you will see that the MC2000 actually makes a credible amount of current. Because most have an internal resistance much higher than 2 ohms.

Please let us know which one you got and how it sounds because whilst I can’t afford your kinda high end I guess as the saying goes ‘a cat 🐈 can look at a king 🤴!’ 😆 

@drbond 

Here is a great comparison of state of the art phono's FM Acoustics, Goldmund  etc - an excellent read - you can use google translate. It is well worth it.

Part 1 :

6台顶级唱放对比测试，超跑级黑胶系统为参考（1）

唱放之间的差异，远远超出我们的脑放，尤其在参考级唱盘上。

 mp.weixin.qq.com

Part 2 :

11台顶级唱放对比测试，超跑级黑胶系统为参考（2）

德国Trinity黄金参考前级的加入，把本次测试推向了高潮。

 mp.weixin.qq.com

Part 3 :

12台顶级唱放对比测试，黑胶元年真的来了（3）

顶级玩家那里黑胶一直没有衰落，软硬件革命性突破更是火上加油。

 mp.weixin.qq.com

Part 4 :

唱放中的"金陵十二钗": 唱放测试终结篇（4）

哪个是黛玉？哪个是宝钗？大家最关心的可能是哪个是秦可卿。。。

 mp.weixin.qq.com

 

Personally I find current mode input mc phono  stages such as the van den hul grail to be the most transparent and musical - step up transformers have phase shifts and cartridge matching issues, fet's are grainy, and tubes whilst very musical can be too noisy for some.

I have settled on a bespoke current mode mc input combined with tube preamp - ultra low noise, high resolution and musical. The current mode mc input I use can amplify from cartridges with output down to 0.1mv with ease.

@pani never knew that about the low gain - I guess you are then forced to get a full FM amplification chain £££$$$€€€ 😂 

@drbond i have heard some CH precision at a show and found the set up a tad cold

The constellation is probably voiced like my Vendetta SCP2A and that is (to my ears at least) kind of dark chocolatey in that it is warm but not not fuzzy. It’s got a knack of making you listen and draws you in.

Many say the Mares/Connoisseur @jcarr is incredible but they are no longer manufactured 

The only problem with FM Acoustics 122 Mk2 phono is it has a max gain of 56db only. While it goes well with its own high gain preamps, it can sound like lacking life and vigour through a regular preamp with 12-18db gain. It is not its true sound, but simply the gain structure issue. I have heard it doing that multiple times when paired with non FM preamps.

@clearthinker 

@lohanimal 

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the various phono stages that you've heard. 

I'll have to look more closely at Constellation. . . I imagine it would be quite similar to the CH Precision. 

There's review for the Gokd Note PH-1000 Phono Stage on HiFi Pig magazine.

Read the review here: https://www.hifipig.com/gold-note-ph1000-phonostage/#more-146474

Have never heard this unit but have their smaller PH-10 and matching PSU-10 and works and sounds great.
https://www.hifipig.com/gold-note-ph1000-phonostage/#more-146474