Phono Stage upgrade to complement Dohmann Helix One Mk 2

lewm always argument something with " wrong " questions as this to myjos:

" You have heard the JC1 and the Hyperion driving the same pair of Sound Lab speakers in the same room with the same upstream gear? "

First mijos was not talking of the old JC1 but today JC1+ that's way different and maybe he never read the MF review along the measurements on the Hyperion amps where we can read:

by MF:

" 

No doubt the single tube in the Hyperion's signal path subtly greased the musical proceedings with a smooth yet transparent overlay of richness. Having become acclimated in recent years years to the sound of the darTZeel NHB-458, which is less generous in the upper bass and lower midrange (detractors of solid-state designs might describe its sound as "thin") and is faster in the transient realm (detractors might say "overly and unrealistically sharply drawn"), the gross distinctions between these two great performers were easily audible..........

But even while the contours of the new sound were still easily definable and the differences between the two amplifiers were still clear...."

 

and JA measurements comments:

 

" 

While the Hyperion's input impedance is specified as a moderately high 47k ohms, my measurements indicated a lower value at low and middle frequencies: just over 21k ohms for both the balanced and unbalanced inputs. This is still high enough not to be an issue, but at 20kHz the impedance dropped to just 3k ohms, which will be marginal with some preamplifiers, rolling off the top octave. Fortunately, this shouldn't have affected Michael Fremer's listening, given his associated equipment: His Ypsilon PST-100 preamplifier has a low output impedance, and his darTZeel preamplifier has a fairly uniform, if high, output impedance across the audioband.

Despite the Hyperion's large number of output devices, its output impedance was relatively high for a solid-state design, at 0.35 ohm. As a result, the modification of the amplifier's frequency response with our standard simulated loudspeaker reached ±0.25dB (fig.1, gray trace). Of more concern is the ultrasonic peak in the Hyperion's response, centered between 40 and 50kHz and reaching 2dB in height. The peak gave rise to a single damped cycle of oscillation with a 10kHz squarewave (fig.2) and was not affected by the load impedance, which suggests that it occurs before the output stage, perhaps at the input transformer. 

 

 However, as figs. 3–5 reveal, at our usual definition of clipping, at which the THD+noise reaches 1%, the Hyperion delivered 239W into 8 ohms (23.8dBW), 400W into 4 ohms (23dBW), and 315W into 2 ohms (19dBW). It did meet its specified power when I relaxed the definition of clipping to between 1.4% and 2% THD+N, but these are disappointing results.

 

Of more concern in these graphs is the Hyperion's linear increase in distortion with increasing power output above a few hundred milliwatts. While the THD+N percentage remains acceptably low below 10W or so, above that power, and especially at low frequencies, it reaches levels that will be audible with continuous pure tones...

When MF comments on "the immediately obvious added harmonic and textural richness," that it is what I would expect from this distortion signature. In addition, the Hyperion's intermodulation distortion was not as low as I would have liked.

Given that, it is not an amplifier that I would recommend, especially given its price. While I have found that power amplifiers tend to sound different from one another, I feel they should be engineered to be as close to neutrally balanced as possible, and not designed to produce a "tailored" sound, as the Hyperion seems to be.—

 

Obviously dover made the same that lewm in this specific matter. As I said, knowledge levels is the " name of the game ".

R.

 

 

@dover

I have to agree with you: measurements are only a guide. I am personally not convinced that we know enough about hearing to rely definitively on measurements. For instance, I have played several stringed instruments, and I have observed that when one string is played, it’s not just that string that vibrates and intonates sound, but you also get a minor vibration of any strings in that same note, usually one octave higher, which would be the second harmonic, if I’m not mistaken. Interestingly, this is the same harmonic that the Ypsilon Hyperions accentuate when pushed to the limit, which sounded very good (in fact, the best I have ever heard); however, the measurements demonstrate this as distortion.

@mijostyn

Yes, I’m sure the JC1+ are great amplifiers, but I doubt they could hold much to either the Lamm M2.2 (which, by the way, are also excellent amplifiers) or the Ypsilon Hyperion. If someone wants to ship me a pair to central Florida, I’l listen with an open mind and report back. . .

@rauliruegas

You are no doubt very knowledgeable, and probably know more about specifications and engineering than most people here. However, the data can only reveal what we currently measure. I think it’s important to consider that we don’t know enough about sound to know everything to measure or how to measure it fully. While analyzing data is definitely a strength of yours, I’m of the opinion that the data can sometimes be misleading, and incomplete, and listening to the Hyperions seems to confirm my opinion, despite Atkinson’s measurements.

 

Now, if anyone can recommend any other current-based phono stages, with two MC inputs, I’m all ears!

@lewm , I heard Hyperions on big Wilsons in comparison with Boulder 2150s. I preferred the Boulders. The two most popular amps with SoundLabs users are Atma-Sphere MA 2s and  JC 1s for whatever it is worth.

@drbond I have never heard or seen a Lamm amp so I can not comment but you are very wrong about the JC 1+. John Curl's point with the JC 1 was that he can make a top amp for much more reasonable money. I wish I could send you a pair. There is much more involved in the pricing of audio gear than the quality of the parts and engineering.  What is left has nothing to do with the sound quality of the equipment. John Curl has a record that is hard to ignor. People do not want to hear that an $18,000 amp is better engineered than their $90,000 amp. So be it. My personal goal is to get Atma-Shere MA 2's a $45,000 amp which due to their design are a perfect mate for Soundlabs speakers. I would love to get MA 3s but at $145,000 I would never get them by my wife. On the other hand with the price of propane we could use the extra heat next Winter:-)

@rauliruegas , my feelings exactly. I am going with whatever produces the best results. You should look into Channel D's Pure Vinyl program. It is a lot of fun. You can compare different versions of a recording and different equipment in the analog chain, cartridges and tonearms. Very enlightening.

Dear @drbond : " However, the data can only reveal what we currently measure. I think it’s important to consider that we don’t know enough about sound to know everything to measure or how to measure it fully. "

 

Yes, data is what we measure. What’s wrong with that? and yes till today does not exist measurement proccess that can tell us how an amp can sound but this fact does not means that today we can diminish measures like in the past like the corrupted AHEE teached to us.

J.Atkinson is not a simple mesurement gentleman he was an analog lover till 10-15 years ago when he learned about and left it, it’s a very well regarded reviewer and it’s one with a lot more honesty than other reviewers ( he can’t recomend the Hyperions when MF did it. What a difference ! ! ! ) and it’s a recording engineer.

It’s ovbious that any gentleman that spends 90K+ in an audio item be at defensive attitude against facts with not very good quality design in that audio item.

 

But this is not only about measurements but about common sense. Ypsilon likes transformers and almost all is transformer coupled and that fact means that the audio signal travel for those " hundreds " of meters of transformers wires that certainly damage that audio signal and I said common sense because almost a rule is that we connect the tonearm to the phono stage input with the shorter IC cable to let at minimum degradation signal issues and here we are speaking of 1m. now imagine if the audio signal must travel over " hundred " of wire meters. Higher distortions that you like and is fine with me.

Common sense tells not spend high K $$$ to achieve top quality level in the cartridge signal only for that valuable cartridge signal be destroyed in the next system links. That’s all and is up to you because in this thread all gentlemans already gave you a lot of choices many of them with out that " common sense ".

Btw, FR on the Hyperion against load speaker impedance . This is a fact not imagination or subjective:

 

Anyway, enough.

R.