New KEF Reference 5 speakers

Old thread I know, I have been trying a pair and initially they sound good tight base clear highs. But after 3 weeks they are sounding thin and kind of lifeless. Added back in my modded Tyler Acoustic Halo Extreme and the 3d was back the excitement and vibrant sound had returned. I have about 6k into these speakers you would think the kef would blow them away. Not.

Hi m669326

Yes I think the set up and room size/shape makes a immense difference. And I think the old kef references and the newer ones are probably on different ends of the sound spectrum. Eg with uni-Q and metal dome tweeters the new ref will sound more detailed and sparkling than the older ones. However maybe the old one sounds more musical? Not sure havent heard one before in person. But I'm sure they are totally different animals haha. Heard a kef 107 youtube demo before...sounds more old school/musical kind of sound. very different to the newer ones. 

And a lot of times, front end gear/dac/cabling will make a immense difference too in terms of system synergy. I dont think there's a need to compare esp online haha. Can go listen in person if you are interested - or just enjoy your current speakers :)

Regards
Ben

Thanks, Greenman. I listen in an unusual room that may make my generalizations invalid. And I haven't heard a recent KEF Reference. But the ones I had were certainly more polite than my ATCs -- less detailed and in your face, for sure. As my Irish mother used to say (much to my confusion as a child): "It takes all kinds, said the lady as she kissed the cow."
Let me know if any other inane folk wisdom might be helpful.
M

Hi m669326

Agree with Fast. The ATC and Kef ref 5 sounds are very different. Have heard the SCM19, 20, 40 before. Not sure if it was due to the speakers or front end or cabling -- I felt they were too bright for me. But then again I am very sensitive to bright sounds -- might not be a good representative of the population at large. But in terms of detail have to agree its extremely detailed -- if you are chasing for 100% accuracy that may be just the speaker for you :)

Enjoy your ATCs :)

Hi Fast!

Indeed you are fast in replying! Thanks for your replying! Glad that you are enjoying your system! Would be nice to post a youtube/sound demo to see what kind of sound you are enjoying!  :)

Haha totally agree with you that speaker positioning makes a world of difference! Haha have yet to try a dedicated pre-amp in view of budget constraints but I will remember your opinion if I am shopping for seperates in future! I remember one of the audio shop owners on "thomas and stereo" said the same as you too -- that pre-amp makes the biggest difference in a system. 

Haha for now I think I will still be looking for a more tube system until one day i feel that power is my thing I'm chasing. Haha have always been lusting after the 845/211/300B amps and always thinking if those 20-30W class A amps will be sufficient to drive the ref 5s! haha if I do make the jump will update more in here! for now I'm really loving the "colour" of the sound that the speakers/tubes are producing -- they sound so "correct" and indescribable. may be due to 3rd order harmonics but am willing to sacrifice big power for the correct "colour" :)

Please do update further when you have further upgrades/changes! Happy to hear that you are enjoying system, and stay safe wherever you are!

Regards
Ben

Heard ATC speakers. Couldn’t hold a candle to KEF Reference 5. Absolutely no comparison.  Some day you may want to upgrade. But thanks for your input.  

For what it's worth, I switched from an older KEF reference to an equivalent ATC, and I was much happier. They're along the same lines in terms of sound signature, but the ATCs just did everything better.
In your shoes, I probably would hang on to what I've got, but there you go.

Ben-this is Fast.  Good to hear from you. Glad you stuck with the Ref 5s and are now enjoying them. As I’ve said before, they do require patience when brand new but that patience is rewarded within a few months. Sounds like you’ve made some good improvements.  
As for my system, I’ve added Isoacoustics Gaia footers. I also had a professional (Sterling Trayle) spend a day positioning my speakers and had a dedicated 20 amp line installed...the latter two things a little over a year ago, just before Covid. I’ve upgraded some usb cables to Wireworld and some power cords to Audioquest Y3. As I may have mentioned, I added a Rega RP6 turntable with Dynavector cartridge (I don’t listen to records very much so I wanted something mid priced but good). Finally, I tried connecting my PS Audio Directstream DAC directly to my Krell power amp and liked it. I went looking for a preamp which would be similar to a direct connection but allow me to use my phono, tuner, etc. and arrived at the Benchmark LA4.  I I ordered an LA4 from Music Direct, which allows a 60 day trial.  I kept it. I think it’s about the closest you can get to a direct connection with multiple inputs. As a bonus, it’s very reasonably priced for such a preamp.  
So how does it all sound?  I’m happy and done fiddling, at least for a while. In terms of biggest difference, I’d have to say the preamp and the speaker positioning. I’m still not totally convinced that ultra expensive cables make that big a difference compared to good moderately priced ones (or maybe my hearing isn’t acute enough to appreciate it). The Gaias are a step up over the standard spikes but not a huge one, especially considering the cost. Most of all, I’m enjoying the Ref 5s and...happy I chose them over the many other speakers I considered and, like you, that I stuck with them. 

Hi Fast

Thanks for your post! Appreciate it alot and it has been really encouraging to learn from your experience. :)
Have bought a kef reference 5 around 4-5 months back and felt the sound harsh/bright/unpalatable for half the songs - similar to your experience. After reading your article decided to break them in -- after 3 months they sound so much better -- smooth, sweet, with the correct "colour" that I didnt know existed but I liked!

Other things I did:
1. Shift them 1.5m away from the back wall
2. Tube rolling - changed the pre amp tubes to nos brimar 12au7 (using a primaluna dialogue HP 70watt tube integrated with EL34s)

Upcoming improvements
1. Upgrade source - just put in an order for doge 7 tube dac (currently using a $200 usb stick streaming spotify from phone :p) and subsequently maybe a innuos streamer.

Any updates about your system? :) And what did you do you felt made the greatest difference? :)

Thanks
Ben 

Still trying to decide whether to get a new preamp and, if so, which one.  Obviously, it’s difficult to shop now.  I’m planning to try connecting my DAC directly to my power amp as an experiment to see if the Preamp is degrading the sound.  
My speaker wires are inexpensive Audioquests.  I’ve thought about replacing them but the wires run behind my baseboard for about 25 feet and then under some wood molding so all this would have to be removed and then replaced.  Not convinced it’s worth the trouble and expense...especially since my system sounds pretty good now.  

Fast- please do report if you switch out the pre-amp. I'd love to know how that changes things. I just got new speaker cables (Morrow Audio bi-wired SP7's, upgrade from Tara Labs- prism) The clarity and openness of the sound from the speakers is just stunning. The SP7's added more clarity and detail. Even with mighty bass- the full spectrum of sound is clear as crystal. So I am going to live with the Parasound unless something life altering comes up, i.e. a PASS or a KRELL comes up dirt cheap- or if my brother really sells me on Van Alstine! I got the speakers from a dealer. Demo's. Not sure how much time they have on them. 60% off- I couldn't resist! 

Doryb-glad your Ref5s improved when you moved furniture. It’s not clear whether you got the speakers new or used. If they’re new, they will need lots of time to reach maximum performance level (as you can tell from my prior posts) so stick with it.  They’re also very sensitive to placement as you’ve learned so don’t be reluctant to experiment.  You might even consult hiring someone with expertise in speaker placement, although this can be expensive.  As for electronics, I was using an Audio Research power amp and preamp.  I replaced the power amp with a Krell, mainly because I got tired of dealing with tubes. The Krell amp/Audio Research preamp sound great (although I am considering a new preamp as the Audio Research is 25 years old). The more I listen to the Ref 5s, the more impressed I am an happier that I patiently waited them out. Hope you have the same experience!

Fast
Thanks for staying with this thread. I just acquired a pair of KEF Ref 5.  I set them up where I had the r500, and they didn't impress me. I read everything I could find on Audiogon (and appreciated your persistence)- once I cleared out ALL FURNITURE from the room- then set up the system , and placed the speakers correctly in the room- they came alive! They need a lot of space! I will need to get rid of some furniture. I am using the PARASOUND HALO (original) integrated (and using the Parasound DAC) . Although I don't have to raise the volume past the 9 O'Clock position to get really good holographic and open sound with strong bass- I feel I am not getting as much as I could from these speakers at lower volumes. I also like classical, and violins seem a bit edgy with the Parasound. Now I am going down the rabbit hole of thinking about a different amp/pre-amp.

In the old days I had the KEF Ref 105/2 with PS Audio pre amp and Adcom GFA 555- I loved that sound. Trying to get there again with the reference 5's. Either my memory remembers them better than they were- or I still have room for improvement with the Parasound... I would love to hear from any KEF REF 5, 3 or blade owners on amp matching. My brother swears by Van Alstine (Tube pre-amp, SS Amp). Anyone tried that with KEF reference ?

@allhifi There are 5 Blades on sales today on A'gon, 4 of them by dealers. Dealers hardly ever sell Blades on A'gon in the past. It was mostly consumers. My money is on an new upgraded version of the Blades in the pipeline.

Paradigm Persona are incredible speakers...Only heard KEF Reference at shows, never impressed.

Persona 5f and 9h I know very well and compared against very serious competition, and I can say with confidence that Persona speakers are among the best in their price range. 

fast: Count your blessings that you purchased a KEF 'Reference' vs. Paradigm Persona.

pj

Kren: RE:  01-18-2020 1:03pm

" ..Dave, Does Ref5 beat Paradigm 5f and/or 7f in your experience? Can you compare and contrast them?"

KEF Reference are engineered and built to a level of sophistication the Persona's wood-screwed-in driver's can only dream.
(Seek/observe the bolted-in driver's of the KEF Reference (and current 'R' series), the enclosure's use of steel tension bars -and the sophisticated front panel baffle design.  I believe KEF offers an exploded/interior view of such design elements.)

pj

santabarbarbara: I agree:

 06-28-2019 10:38am

The Kef Blades have deeper puncher bass and throw a bigger soundstage. They do not disapear as well.

" ...I always though the Blades were great at the disappearing trick, the best I have heard. If the 9H are even better than this then that is something to keep in mind."

I suspect any advantage (staging) perceived by the Persona's likely due to the 'dialing-in' bass linearity via the powered woofer section. For, LF clarity/linearity is imperative in realizing the finest sound quality. Put another way, if bass response is not controlled -to perfection- it's impossible attain excellent sound quality; everything (music) hinges on this incredibly critical frequency range; it MUST be brought under control. This, particularly true with loudspeakers of extended low frequency capability. 

pj  

audiotroy (RE:  06-27-2019 )

OR, consider  3M 'Wrap' (extrorinary colors/patterns and much less expensive than
paint-work -I suspect.)

pj 

Hi fast: Realizing the age of this post, I'm wondering how it played out and your impressions today ?

pj

For those who added subs to their Kef’s I’m curious about Kef’s own subs.

I feel like I never seem them specifically mentioned.

Kef Reference are a safe bet to build a system around, but since the uniq driver I don’t think they have that traditional’British’ sound anymore and they require careful component matching as much as any hi end speaker does. Congrats.

@audiotroy I thought Rosewood and Walnut were 2 of the nicer colors.

I have to agree with you that the TAD ME1 is a little better than the Ref 1 but the TAD is overpriced in my view, especially when TAD were OK in reducing it to $10K for a few months.

I am going to locally audition another set of electronics you carry, CODA, I want to consider it with KEF Blade2 or LS50. The 07x preamp and #8 amp (they do not have #16).

Anyways, sorry to divert this thread. As I mentioned in the past a telephone call will be coming your way before I put money down on the Blade2.

Yystantabarbera what Fast said is accurate, there are no sales on any other models of the KEF line only the two finishes Rosewood and Walnut are being closed out. 

As the dealer who helped FAST the OP with his room and getting his system to sound truly fantastic, we agree with his assesement the combination of FAST's room size, and furnishings combined with the white and blue cone color of the Foundry edition looks absolutely stunning and should be in an ad for Kef. 

In our opion Fast's orginal setup with 20 year old ARC gear sounded more like real music than a local SF dealers $50k YG/Naim, setup which was about $200k with the cabling which was all Nordost, and the table.

The KEF designs are very impressive, if you read the white paper on the Reference series it is clear that KEF's engineers looked at every facet of how to reduce or eliminate distortion in the Ref series. 

You have to go to a $15k monitor such as the Vimberg or TAD ME 1 before you can truly best the Kef Ref 1. 

We had the Blade in one of its first demos in the East coast at the New York Audio show in 2012, our setup all Chord Reference amps, Esoteric Dac, and such sounded as good as a $400k plus setup down the hall with Solution and YG Sonias, for way less money,

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Kef dealers

The Reference 5 sale is only on a couple of finishes which, apparently, are being discontinued.  Other finishes are not on sale. 
Greatxsound-I agree with your assessment of the KEF Reference 5.  The more experience I have with it, the more I appreciate its natural, realistic sound and the 3D imaging/soundstage.  As for aesthetics, I have the foundry edition in white (the color was my wife’s idea). The looks are striking.  Visitors regularly suggest  contacting KEF about featuring our listening room with the white Reference 5s, in an ad. 

Anybody else wondering if KEF is going to release a newer version of the REFERENCE line or even the Blades. The REFERENCE line currently has a huge sale going on. I spoke with a dealer a few days ago about the Blade and my jaw dropped when I heard the quote for a new Blade2. I won't repeat the number here but me thinks the are clearing out the old stock for some new top end line at KEF.

I'm coming 1.5 years after your original post however wanted to share my experience with my KEF Reference 5's and center. I absolutely love them. Initially I tested other speakers (B&W and Sonus) but the KR5 (for my ears) have the best soundstage, bass, highs, and overall reproduction. And it's true that if you give them an inferior source they'll be reproduced as such. My living room setup is not measured as I have speakers about 15 ft apart from each other and about 12/15 feet from my sofa. I chose to accommodate based on the available area. The KEFs do not disappoint. They are powered by an MC205 and Marantz AV8802A. My sources come from an Oppo 205 and Rega RP8. While far from the ideal stereo pre-amp setup for LPs, when I play an LP, 45rpm, direct from analog tapes (e.g. Illinois Jacket, Oscar Peterson, Dave Brubeck) it is an incredible audio experience. Just amazing. At the same time, with a 3.1 setup multichannel sound just as good. The balance of soundstage, bass, and overall dynamics is just astounding. I am going to upgrade my amplification to three MC611 or Hegel H30 if I can hear them locally. I just wanted to share that the KEF Reference 5 speakers are, to my ears, unmatched in that price range. Oh, and I love the aesthetic aspect too.

Cool thx

Good morning Kren,

Here is our take on the Paradigm vs Kef shootout, both of these are great loudspeakers.

Kef throw a huge soundstge, very clean and natural midrange, good treble detail, very tight bass. 

Paradigm, more holographic soundstage, greater clarity in the treble and midrange, very tight bass. 

In a direct shootout we would take the Paradigms, however, the Paradigms require a bit more system matching. The clarity of the Beryillium drivers is amazing but does require a wamer voicing before they sound magical, vs the Kef which tends to sound great on a wide variety of electronics.

The T+A gear is spectacular on most speakers, the T+A sound is slightly warm in the midrange, smooth top end, a very wide and deep soundstage, excellent information recovery, tight but a bit on the warmer side of bass, extremely well designed, beautifully made with usually an upgrade path 

Hope that helps.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Kef, Paradgim Persona and T+A dealers

Audio Doc,
Not a trick question above ^^^^^^
Legitimately interested in your comparison of Kef Reference 3and 5 versus Paradigm 5f and 7f, given that you deal both of them. 
Also interested in whether T+A is good synchronous match for either esp Kef or if other brands in same price bracket are better. 
Thanks!

Dave, Does Ref5 beat Paradigm 5f and/or 7f in your experience? Can you compare and contrast them?

Ref3 to 5f comparison also?


Last question: which electronics pair best with Kef Ref? T+A?

For those interested in the KEF Reference 5, they’re running a sale for $13,999 while supplies last.  https://www.shop.us.kef.com/specials/kef-specials/reference-5-ultimate-floorstanding-speaker.html?gc...

Ls50s will always benefit from a sub.  They are  small speakers that work best in smaller rooms.  Set up well in right size room they are excellent wihin their low end limitations and will reveal any shortcomings upstream.   

I agree with room acoustics and the LS50. I had them in a bad room for years and I liked them a lot. Now I have them in a treated room, perfect size for them and love them. Everything has improved across the board. Of course, the bass is lacking but that is expected. 

I was astonished by the improvement when I moved a pair of LS50s into a different room. Room acoustics are critical. I’m now using LS50s for HT and KEF 1s for music with excellent results. The Ref 1s are driven by Ayre 5 Twenty series digital hub, preamp and amp. Source is mostly Roon via ethernet to the digital hub, but an Ayre DX-5 DSD is also available. Beginning next week, the LS50s will be driven by a 300 watt NAD M22; they sure seemed to love the 400 watt Parasound JC 1 monoblocks.  I gave away my beloved KEF Ref 107/2s. I think the Ref 1s are excellent, and given my preference for baroque and jazz, I’ll use subs only for HT because the Ref 1s have adequate LF for the music I enjoy.

db

The Kef Blades have deeper puncher bass and throw a bigger soundstage. They do not disapear as well.

I always though the Blades were great at the disappearing trick, the best I have heard. If the 9H are even better than this then that is something to keep in mind.

We just did a demo last week of the Persona 9H vs the Blades.

The Personas are more transparent, image with greater precision. Those Beryilium drivers are just extraordinary also the room correction system allows you to get great tight bass no matter the room.

Howerver:

The Kef Blades have deeper puncher bass and throw a bigger soundstage. They do not disapear as well. 

There is a used pair in need of a paint job in Florida for a ridiculous price 
for such a low price I would get those Kef Blades and invest in some really good electronics and digital. The damage is on the back and sides of the speakers you could get them repainted and save a fortune. 

A well setup pair of Blades are pretty awesome.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ KEF Blade and Paradigm Persona dealers

@audiotroy  would you go Ref 5 or Persona 9H ?

The fully tweeked up setup we had done at Fast's place sounded amazing and in terms of the marriage between the components, the room size and configuraton, as well as his taste in music, yes his system in our opinion did sound better than a local dealers YG Sonja setup with a Naim, DR 500 series amp and a Berkly Dac and Nordost cabling. which was a $300k rig.

What we added  a set of Isoacoustic Ghia Footers under the Ref 5
                           two set of Wireworld Platinum Interconencts
                            a Wireworld Ethernet and USB cable
                            a Innuous Zenith server
                            a Aqua Hifi Lascala MK II Dac 
                             two sets of Stein harmonizers
                              an Audio Magic Power Conditioner and an Isotek Syncro power cord
                              Audioquest Hurricane power cord for dac and server
                              ( the ARC gear had captive chords)

What was very interesting was the addition of another set of ears from the President? of the CA audio society who also heard the improvments that the Aqua dac and the Stein Harmonizers brought to the system. 

We have found that the carefully application of the right, components, cabling, and accessories will elevate the performance of a system tremendously. 

What wa clear is that as each piece of the tuning rig was added the system became more and more life like, which was really enlightening. 

The moral of the story system setup and synergy is what is crucial. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

I probably should have paid more attention to the front end equipment during the auditions but I wasn’t in the market for electronics.  I’m very happy with my 20+ years old Audio Research tube equipment and recently replaced the tubes and had it serviced.  I do recall that  the dealers tried to approximate my setup by using similar tube equipment for the auditions.

Glad you also had a good experience with Dave.  He told me that, before his visit, he thought I might need new electronics but, after hearing what I have, he no longer thought so.  He also visited some other dealers in my area and came away saying that some of their much more costly systems didn’t sound as good as my KEF Ref. 5/Audio Research equipment. He recommended adding  the Innuous Zenith 3, which I did and love, replacing my Aurilac Vega 1 dac, which I am working on, replacing my interconnects with Wireworld (which I have done) and adding a power conditioner—all of which I thought were reasonable recommendations .  

Hi fast, the reason I asked about the front end at the dealer when you were first impressed with the Ref 5 is that I would have gone the easy path of just buying the same gear. 

Regarding Audio Doctor, I called them and spoke with Dave, making it clear it was unlikely I was going to take a drive from Vermont to New Jersey to buy anything and I was accepting his invitation on Audiogon to call for his opinion even if not purchasing.  Dave was just very helpful and really spent an half hour just to answer some questions I had. 

As I mentioned, I never heard the Reference 5 at a dealer because no dealers had them in stock. I heard the Reference 3 at three local dealers but I honestly can’t remember what equipment they used.  I liked the Reference 3 at all three dealers and preferred them to several other models I auditioned, which is why I bought the 5s. I will add that, when the Audio Doctor visited, he was very impressed with the KEFs and with my older Audio Research amp, preamp and phono stage, none of which I bought from him.  To me, it was a good sign that he wasn’t just trying to sell the me unnecessary equipment.  

Congratulations fast on dialing in your Ref 5s.  I may have missed it, but did you ever mention what preamp/amp the dealer was using when you decided you wanted to purchase the speakers?  I would be curious.

This is a proof that good speakers really need
Very long break-in .my first Proac speakers open up after almost a year and my current Proac speakers (D30RS) opened up only after more than 6 month.
Glad you liked your Kef speakers eventually.

As I mentioned, I ran into the same problem finding Reference 5s to audition.  I even called KEF’s US headquarters but the closest dealer they suggested was several hundred miles away.  I had no problem hearing the Reference 3 at local dealers and really liked them.  After much thought and talking  to several dealers, I decided that the Reference 5 would undoubtedly have the characteristics I liked in the 3 but with added bass. It was a little gamble sine I’d never heard them.   When the 5s arrived, I had some doubts which led to my post last May.  As raised in another thread, I don’t understand why companies like KEF require dealers to buy their products to show in their  store rather than lending them.  Hard to sell what you can’t show or demonstrate. 

Good to hear, and congrats!  I’ve owned some iteration of the KEF Reference speaker since 1986, 107s.  I have a pair of 205.s and a pair of 203.2s.  I would like to hear the new Reference series, but the closest dealer is a couple hours away and doesn’t stock them.  Really like my 205’s and power them with McIntosh 452.  You may be convincing me to take a ride!!