My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Classe is nothing special. They look cool though but besides that, nothing is good about these amps. I actually prefer the old cam400 monos over the 600.
-Update on the room: the AC is installed -the walls are painted but need a second pass - carpet to be installed this Saturday - room is wired for atmos and surrounds I should have the room hopefully finished this Saturday (just the room, not the equipment) which also happens to be my birthday. Fingers crossed !
Agreed about catering to a particular taste. The new XD line of amps have been mentioned to have a sound signature like the Luxmans, which some consider their sweet sound to be smoothed over compared to others. I haven't heard the 300i integrated, although reviews seem to be good so far. My Theater 7 without the XD is anything but smoothed over. I'm guessing the XD upgrade would possibly warm it up and maybe smooth it over. @WC - great news on the room - fun to hear how it is progressing. Happy B-Day in advance! Dave
@whitecamaross Happy B-Day . I can't wait to hear about the new room once it is all setup. I am interested in that USB cable too, unless it costs an arm and a leg.
axememan, My choice for top value with excellent sound is the Mytek Brooklyn Amp, now $2500 retail. This uses modified Pascal class D modules. It is fast, neutral, smooth with excellent detail. I have been happily using it for over 1 year while I wait to see whether any amp has significantly better sound for much more money.
tweak1, I am eagerly awaiting your opinion of the EVS 1200 from Ric Schultz. Your AA DPA-1, my Mytek, and the EVS 1200 are all similarly priced custom class D implementations. I am guessing that they are competitive in performance. Perhaps the EVS 1200 is the most transparent, since that is Ric's goal. Reviews are tainted by magazine politics, etc., so your findings will be of interest to many value seekers here.
@pokey77 It's not my opinion - I have no personal experience with Luxman. And, from what WC has described, I think the Luxman would be at the top of my list as well. I've just noticed in my journey that some folks do not prefer smooth and sweet and would consider that kind of sound overly smooth. Again, it's not my opinion, so I apologize for having mentioned it.
This hobby is certainly preferences. I can’t say that everyone would pick what i choose as my top picks. I still stand by what i said: Luxman is incredible for the money AND a few dealers who i am constantly in touch with totally agree with me. Luxman is killer for the money spent and could easily satisfy most people out there. As many of you know, i have owned amps FAR MORE EXPENSIVE than the luxman 900u and I STILL think that luxman is a "poor man’s ultra high end amp". I was offered a boulder 2060 today and i couldn’t run away fast enough from it. I don’t want cold, sterile amps that leave me bored or not wanting to listen to music for hours. I wouldn’t mind comparing the luxman 900u to the constellation inspiron amp since they are relative close in price and performance. Maybe that will come later down the road. If i were an amp designer, i think i would create a combination of the luxman/constellation musicality and the gryphon/block audio muscularity. That combo would be lethal for many of us.
Been playing SCAD/DVD-As for the last 2 weeks straight Consistently, the upper portion of the entire soundstage sounds compressed, I started thinking: why? It just seemed odd that both formats would have a similar issue, and though the hi-rez formats made the DPA-1 sound a lot more powerful (which distracted me for awhile) it occurred to me that something wasn’t right elsewhere in my system
Yesterday, it occurred to me to experiment with where my amp is plugged in. I used to plug my amp/s direct, but the DPA-1 (and the PS Audio M700s before it) were plugged into my Core Power Technologies 1800 PLC which is plugged into my 20 amp dedicated line with a 4 gang box into which are 2 cryoed upscale duplexes
So I shut the amp off and plugged it direct into the dedicated box, using a cheater (no ground). Wow. I had been listening to Count Basie DVD A last night which sounded thin (no fuzz on the peach), but now it sounds natural, properly/naturally fleshed out. I then put Livingston Talyor back on and the whole top of the music opened up where it had been pinched and congested prior to
I feel so dumb, but my inner voice finally got through to me
Looking back on why I plugged the amp/amps into the 1800, it was because Mark Schifter (then Core Power) said people were buying multiple 1800s just for their large amps, so I tried it, but never compared back to wall
Late last night I was listening to Dianna Krall DVD Love Scenes , which I have listened to on many high buck systems over the years since it’s debut in 2003 in redbook, as have I in many iterations of my own systems, but last night I felt closer to being transported to where she was, and it was amazing
Once in this league of kit a tiny thing like what your amp is plugged into, AND, is it grounded, and in which position is the cheater (it can sound better in one of the 2 options)
Room update: atmos, surround back, side surrounds are installed. Waiting to do the front inwalls, projector, and screen. The carpet is getting installed tomorrow. Still waiting on the solid tech stand I ordered which is coming from Sweden and I’m assuming it’s being delivered by a donkey trying to swim the ocean because it’s taking FOREVER. Until that arrives, I can’t begin to set things up.
WC, Which solid tech stand did you order, and what is the cost? I have been reading about the complete isolation solutions offered by Stillpoints, including their hugely expensive rack at $9000 and up. The review by Roy Gregory on their site suggests that the stand is most important, followed by speakers and electronics.
Has anyone here had experience with any part or the whole Stillpoints system?
WC, It's good to see your room progressing. Having a dedicated room should provide some sonic benefits, as well as a lot of peace of mind. There are two things that I love to do for peace of mind...go to the gym everyday and go to my music room, close the doors, turn of the lights and just loose myself in the music.
"I’m not spending 10,000 dollars on a stand." I wouldn't either! To be honest a decent rack is the last piece of the puzzle for me. I've asked this question before, if you have a decent rack and have Stillpoints under every component how much impact will a better rack have? It's impossible to have a home audition of an audio rack, so I just keep going back and forth on should I get a better rack.
I doubt I will spend big money on a rack. The Stillpoint reviews have a difference of opinions on where the priorities are. Some say to first use the footers under the CD or other source, others say to start with the rack. It is common knowledge that under the speakers is critical. Since I am just starting to learn about isolation products, I have an open mind. I suppose the complete systems approach of Stillpoints is valid, but as usual we should do our own experimenting.
"It is common knowledge that under the speakers is critical." I don't know if it's critical, but I do have Isoacoustics GAIA Is under my speakers. I think WC will agree that to a certain extent everything matters.
Back in the day I had Stillpoints and Risers under everything. Just because they are expensive doesn't mean they can't be equalled by something as basic as Machina Dynamica springs, which I use under everything except my speakers which are unstable with them
Your speakers are unstable with springs because when the center of gravity is high either more springs OR stiffer springs are required to isolate the load with stability. There are limits to how much weight 4 of my standard springs can support, without increasing the number of springs. But there are many ways to skin a cat 🐱
My new Super Stiff Springs have a much higher spring rate 3x and are intended for heavy loads like subwoofers and speakers and big amplifiers. But if speakers have a HIGH CENTER OF GRAVITY 4 stiff springs may not have sufficient lateral support if placed directly under the speakers, the footprint is too small. You can increase the number of springs from 4 to 5 or 6 under the speakers OR the springs must be arranged in a wider pattern for high COG - which means you need a maple plate around 18” x 18” under the speakers, under which 4 springs are placed in a WIDE PATTERN 18x18 to provide enough LATERAL SUPPORT for STABILITY. Voila! 🏋🏻♂️ 🤗
Give me the right spring and I will isolate the world 🌎
Ricred1, I have heard some great things about the Isoacoustics GAIA speaker footers. There was a back to back demo on YouTube of all places and even through this recording, I could hear the (positive) difference they made. I think the site was “pursuit of perfect system” a Brit site. Not cheap, but in our crazy audiophile world, they could be considered bargains compared to some of the snake oil products out there.
I still don’t believe I will ever ever buy a stand that’s 10,000 dollars. Yes I have quite a big investment in my set up but I won’t go into that realm of this hobby. Footers, stillpoints etc, sure I’ll venture into that but I still believe one must first find the components that check all your boxes (or most of them anyway) and then you can begin to play with footers. However, cables need to be addressed first in my opinion. I feel like footers are the final touches after you’re done with cabling, power conditioning, room treatment, and possibly even outlets.
I did try to use HD springs under my Emerald Physics KCIIs BUT in addition to being open baffle they have about a 15% tilt and a very heavy magnet at the top, plus tapered base which is maybe 6" smaller in the back. The slightest bump would start them rockin and rollin, so out they came
WC, "I still don’t believe I will ever ever buy a stand that’s 10,000 dollars." If I recall correctly early on you were an opponent of expensive cables, but now you have expensive cables. We never know what we're going to do in this crazy hobby. I can only speak for myself, but as soon as I say never in this hobby, I ended up doing the opposite of what I said.
I was wondering about that. I had seen a post about HD springs previous to the above one, and when I looked at the website, I did not see them. Interesting website... Dave
I have two types of springs, Baby Promethean mini isolators for components up to about 50 - 60 lb. Five or more Baby Prometheans may be required for some loads. The other type is Super Stiff Springs for loads greater than 60-70 lb. - heavy turntables, amps, subwoofers, speakers. Four Super Stiff Springs will isolate loads up to about 120 lb. just add one or more spring for heavier loads. You wouod be surprised how little it costs to isolate the whole system.
I agree that vibration isolation devices like a rack or specialized footers shouldn't be prioritized above components such as speakers, amplifiers, preamps, DACs, etc. but I feel they should be prioritized equally to things like power cords or interconnects and should be considered sooner rather than later. In the same way that you cannot fully appreciate what your amp is capable of with the wrong power cord, it's the same thing with vibration, especially micro-vibrations, which are airborne, floor-borne and component-borne. In my own experience, the noise reduction brought about by good isolation devices, whether it be a rack or a footer, can be rather dramatic.
Here's a youtube video comparing the impact of the Furutech NCF Booster. These are basically cable lifters (signal and power) but they do more then elevate cables off the ground and isolate them against floor-borne vibrations. Furutech's NCF (Nano Crystal Formula) sounds like voodoo but Furutech purports that it converts micro-vibrations into heat, essentially dissipating them. Do cables vibrate? All cables that pass an alternating current vibrate. Power cables, for example, vibrate at 50 or 60Hz which is in the audible spectrum.
Regardless of what you may think, listen to this A/B comparison of this system with and without the Furutech NCF Booster. Even through this recording, the differences are obvious and in my opinion, the impact of these boosters (and I own a few of these) pale in comparison to the improved clarity and image focus brought about by a good rack and footers.
Sorry. It was all I could think of for heavier stuff
I figured whoever went to your site would quickly note no HD, but then they can scroll through the various options to decide which sets to buy. Hope I wasn't overvaluing their intellect
viber7 Furutech's NCF (Nano Crystal Formula) sounds like voodoo but Furutech purports that it converts micro-vibrations into heat, essentially dissipating them. Do cables vibrate? All cables that pass an alternating current vibrate. Power cables, for example, vibrate at 50 or 60Hz which is in the audible spectrum.
>>>>>Most likely the vibration is caused by acoustic waves in the room, once the cables are suspended off the floor, not by the cables themselves, since the current is comprised of photons, which have no mass. Without mass there is no force. Without force there is no vibration. The signal is not vibratory.
@geoffkait , an alternating current is absolutely vibratory. Alternating currents result in magnetic fields that are then capable of electromotive force. Why do you think a transformer (which is a passive electrical device) vibrates when an electrical current is passed through it and why do you think transformers cause a 60 cycle hum that is audible? This isn't the thread for this type of discussion and so I'll leave it at that.
A transformer is a separate issue. The signal through a wire is not inherently vibrating without external forces. If it was vibrating, suspending the cable or power cord would not fix the problem. The induced magnetic field force can obviously interfere with an adjacent wire’s magnetic field force. That’s why we try not to run parallel cables.
@whitecamaross Hope your new room is all set and dandy by now. Fill us in on your take on the Levinson 533h when you get a chance, hopefully top to bottom and particularly the bottom... -:) did you use it with the Logans too? Or only your HT speakers?
To the rest of the gang, As the title of this thread indicates it's Wcss's experiments with amps and such... Could you kindly start your own threads, whether it's about Tuna & Mercury, vibration control, or the Man who fell to earth etc.? you'd be life savers
I think most of the conversations here start on topic, but can easily segue to related topics, which seque again, until we are definitely not on the original topic. Just a human thing - we can easily do it when in conversations with others and a certain word or phrase sparks something in our minds and/or hearts and off we go.
Most folks understand the right idea to bring it back to the topic and send the unrelated topics to another thread and/or to PM's. For others, the passion of the topic seems to overtake them a bit. It's nice that we help each other out to get back to WC and his journey. Dave
WC you were wondering about the SimAudio 860A V2. I have had one for a week and it is much better than the original, and that's saying a lot. Whereas the original ran cool the V2 runs hot. You might want to move it up the list.
Awesome gtaphile. That amp WILL be here at some point. I need to see what simaudio has done with it. Also, I should have the element 116 Monos by the end of the month. I’m really looking forward to it !
gtaphile could it be that it's running hot because it's brand new and needs time to settle in? Also, could you elaborate a bit more on the V2 sound characteristics vs the original? What speakers are you driving it with?
I had been reading the company's literature, it said this is better than the original, equals 870a and two are better than a pair of 880s...
I auditioned the original version for a few months waiting for the V2 and during that time I seldom played at high volume. I enjoyed the original but not to the extent that I felt the urge to play most tracks at much higher levels. The new amp has much more control over the speaker to the point that the room pressurizes differently now...so I can let her go... Speakers are PMC IB2SE at 4 ohms. The sound characteristics are similar (in my set-up), however, the differences are not subtle. Top end is more open, image is more focused, more air, more detail, deeper bass which was lacking and just as organic.
SimAudio have all their eggs in one basket it seems based on the Munich debut press release and I think it was a wise move.
I trade my Beloved Parasound A21+ for plinius Sa103 hopefully I will not regret it thanks to excellent review from whitecamaross this is my preparation towards Martin Logan renaissance 15A I love my Parasound A21+ and P6 combo more than my previous set up Macintosh 601s monos and C52 preamp
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