rbach I have only checked in a few times so have not seen anything from Jay on acoustics. I'd be happy to send pics and have asked where to send.
I don't believe I have heard a room that added absorption, diffusion or a combination of both on the front wall that did not significantly improve the listening experience.
I am not aware of how important HD video is to Jay but if it is a second choice I would remove the projection screen altogether experiment with a large surface area of absorption/diffusion and get the image focus and image size dialed in. I would then replace the screen with a ceiling mount tab tensioned screen and enjoy both systems.
Again I have seen the early portion of Jays journey and not much else so these may be moog points.
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whitecamaross - I am very interested to hear your comments on the pass labs .8 series stereo and mono blocks versus the Bryston 28B cubed to find out if the 28B cubed can compete. Are you close to cutting a deal for the 28b's?
I have compared the 7B cubed to pass labs monoblock .5 series and (for me) the pass labs win out in a few critical areas while the cubed win in only one area and that's speed.
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I heard the Personas in a proper room and I was not impressed. |
I'll chime in to provide some additional perspective on (WC's) statements throughout this thread on the importance of selecting/auditioning new components that have synergy with the rest of your system as well that the audition include a selection of corresponding high quality cables. I auditioned the Luxman C900 pre. to try to take my system forward competing with an ARC 5SE. I did not change any cables and the 5SE clearly bested the C900 where WC reported that the C900 bested the Ref 6 in his findings. I made another pass with three HQ cables and two other amps and the differences were clear when items were changed, however, the 5SE still was the clear winner in my set-up. If you dont have the right combo of components it is likely you won't get the results you are seeking. |
Fenestria!
Interesting combo...indeed |
WC I hinted yesterday...
Fenestria! Interesting combo...indeed
Are you are finally considering the new flagship PMC?
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There is a lot of discussion about toe in and the manufacturer's recommendations. The amount of toe in and the subjective review of the benefits are also dependent on the room acoustics, early reflections etc. Everyone has different room acoustics and reflections so there is really no set amount.
I visited a friend that had a ML system that he has tweaked for years and he has generous room treatments and diffusion. We dialed in more toe in and it improved all aspects at the listening position .
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Someone please block the word Rane from this thread. It has no place in this discussion. Is there some click pay system for that word to the author?
Enough already!
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wc
Would be interesting to try the Ref10/860A combo to see if it takes you forward over the ref10/plinus sa103. |
dasign +1 have been bi wiring or tri wiring for some 20 years on all speakers. Result the drivers perform better with increased clarity and ease. Sometimes it is subtle sometimes it is significant. Depends on cable length and type. |
Value is especially subjective in audio when one is trying to maintain synergy in a system and changing out a product with an exceptional following does not always yield the results you were expecting. WC suggests as most do that synergy is key.
Example Luxman C900 supposedly is better than ARC Ref 6. It may be but not in my trials where even the Ref 5SE bettered the Luxman considerably. Hence the Ref 5SE was the bargain not overpriced.
I have heard the Ref 40th anniversary, similar to the Ref10 and it was miles ahead of the 5SE. It's all about the cast of characters that surround the product you are evaluating. |
In my set-up the 5Se has imaging in spades, wide, deep, three dimensional and highly focused that draws you into the musical performance. The lower octaves of the vocal band are fully reproduced. The image was also layered allowing you to hear the front to back and side to side space between performers and instruments clearly.
Replacing the ARC with the Luxman produced a smaller image in all respects. Vocals sounded thinner, the sense of space and layering were far less evident. Violin for example sounded textured and palpable on the ARC and far less so on the Luxman.
The Luxman had better resolve of the lower bass and that was the only area that it bested the 5SE.
The group of listeners ranged from very experienced to little experience listening to music and when asked which pre. was better the votes were unanimous and when asked my most important criteria - which one draws you into the music the ARC was also the clear winner. Now this is the critical footnote. The Luxman or the ARC may be the better preamp in ANY given system. In mine it is clearly the ARC. In a different set-up, it may be the Luxman. That's the synergy of the cast of characters in any system.
The Reference 40 had similar characteristics to the 5SE. Notable differences were the lower bass had much better resolve. Images were far more three dimensional and more focused. The decay of notes to the lowest audible levels of the performance was also easily followed where the 5Se masked those qualities. Just better in all respects. I should also add that the 5SE and the REF 40 had Synergistic Research fuses installed otherwise they were stock. |
techno-dude
Do you have an example of a preamp that meets your criteria "Someone can get that same euphonic and large soundstage for a lot less than what ARC ask for it"
My experience is also that a preamp provides the attack, dynamics, pace and decay to the line level signal that is missing when a preamp is removed.
Do you have an example of a situation where one "will loose micro details adding it in any chain system, as opposed to a straight connection the Lampi Pacific offers". presuming that you mean any quality DAC.
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Thanks WC. My take away is that it is a lengthy exercise to find a great preamp for one's system and it is ecliptic journey to build a system where one can remove the preamp.
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A few of the posters here are like American broadcasters of hockey games....they know little about hockey and it is painful for Canadians to listen to them All in fun..of course. |
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I'll chime in a bit as to the performance of the Luxman 900U.
The 900u paired with Sim Audio 330 and then a pair of 400M monoblocks had far less synergy than the ARC 5SE paired with the SIM amps. It wasn't even close. This supports WC's recommendation that the 900U should not be expected to perform at a high level UNLESS it is connected to a 900M. |
Viper6
I have been reading this thread for many months and throughout you have made many well conceived contributions and many conclusions. Some of the conclusions have not made it through the group's filter as you know as we detected that you sometimes conclude without actual experience. I see that you are working on that. You also have a knack of taking other's points that were made in context and removing the context and concluding as if they are now black and white. Many of those don't make it through my filter.
All you need to do to make this a positive thread again is to review your conclusions and any that are not crystal clear turn them into queries (as ideas are great) for the group to chime in on.
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dep14...as I am killing a bit of time...
The Countour 60 costs about 50% more than the Walsh 5000, whereas the Lampi Pacific costs 13X that of the Oppo, heck the balanced upgrade on the Lampi costs more than the Oppo...but WC will be polite and praise the Oppo's performance until asked outright about the differences and then he will advise to keep the Oppo and a rope when one goes boating
ok back to work
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jafox - All excellent points.
dep14 - Swapping any single component in a system/room combination that has been optimized to an extent that WC has (acoustic absorption /diffusion excluded) will bare the differences between the two products. In the case of Oppo versus the Lampi if the Lampi did not clearly best the Oppo in all areas one should be looking for the malfunction in the Lampi. Best should not be confused with synergy. The Lampi will do everything better BUT at the same time it may not take the system forward altogether. That is the synergy that we listen for when we try to move our systems forward.
WC communicates this in spades.
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dep14.
In stead of explaining why the Lampi will sound better in a competent system (synergy aside) I'll explain why the Oppo could not. It is competing in a crowded category with price restrictions that limit what the manufacturer can do from model to model. They have to build from known modules and make incremental improvements versus being in a category where there are very small price restrictions. Actually the top end category usually build the product and then put a price on it.
Oppo make fine products - I have two of their products in my home theatre. The were category leaders but its a different category altogether.
Can a Project xtension turntable kit sound as good as a Kronos pro it - not possible unless the Kronos is broken.
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I have an Rm-15 which is connected to everything except amps, line level preamps and phono pre so really tt and digital devices. They simply sound better direct to wall and were thinner through the Rm-15.
Likely not much help but I have heard that the Denali and its kit is quite good. |
You know what you are up against.
Look forward to hearing what lengths you go to get them to sing.
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WC-
It will be helpful to know what elevated the 205 or hampered the Lampizator the last time you compared them as they were reported to be in the same league. |
WC I have a current reference ARC pre and the stock tubes have failed at approx. 400 hours on two occasions which supports one of you theories. |
welcome back Viper....we missed you turning the forum upside down!. |
psnyder149
Excellent analogy! Viber - here is an example of restraint. You have gone on and on about concert halls and the musicians perspective on stage. We hear it all the time. I happen to manage one of the most respected consulting practices in North America that specializes in performance sound for concert halls and I have not chimed in one bit because it is not relevant to the thread. |
WC what is your current room dimension L/W/H?
The garage is 16 by 22 by what H? |
If the move is to isolate the listening room from the rest of the house so that others will not hear the system then that it is worthwhile. If it's just for improved listening then you can likely demonstrate a high percentage of the improvement by installing absorption and diffusion panels in your existing room temporarily and ensuring that you have the listening position/speaker position/room boundary ratios optimized in the treated room. Once you hear the results you will be able to assess if you need to start fresh. If you do then all of those panels are reusable in the garage or another room.
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WC
just auditioned a Sim Audio 860A...agree with your assessment even though I have not heard the other candidates in that price category.
Also auditioning quality speaker cables and the combination now extends the width of the image so much so that I will be revisiting speaker placement and possibly room treatments to account for it.
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Merrill is certainly motivated to be the leader in high end class D. Have heard his 118's and although not in a shootout they were impressive. |
WC you were wondering about the SimAudio 860A V2. I have had one for a week and it is much better than the original, and that's saying a lot. Whereas the original ran cool the V2 runs hot. You might want to move it up the list. |
lucidear
I auditioned the original version for a few months waiting for the V2 and during that time I seldom played at high volume. I enjoyed the original but not to the extent that I felt the urge to play most tracks at much higher levels. The new amp has much more control over the speaker to the point that the room pressurizes differently now...so I can let her go...
Speakers are PMC IB2SE at 4 ohms.
The sound characteristics are similar (in my set-up), however, the differences are not subtle. Top end is more open, image is more focused, more air, more detail, deeper bass which was lacking and just as organic.
SimAudio have all their eggs in one basket it seems based on the Munich debut press release and I think it was a wise move. |
zprr
It is not too hot that one can't touch it. The v1 ran very cool to the touch...I suggest it is a combination of running at higher levels and the new design (with the same size chassis) is challenged to dissipate additional heat from the larger capacitance. |
GIK will be proposing diffusion panels in strategic locations to break up early reflections as well as help in maintaining the overall sound energy. |
WC
Suggest you stay away from high chair backs (past your shoulders) as they affect two channel listening. |
Agree with guidocorona and erik...
Putting it another way the synergy that we aim for when auditioning/pairing a pre/amp/speaker is more important than the class of amp you are listening to. |
I have auditioned the Merrill 118 monos with the Christine preamp, the Luxman 900 combo (pre and single amp) and ARC 5Se/ Simaudio 860A V2 in three different systems so it is difficult to comment accurately BUT, for what it is worth the Merrill combo was the least memorable in terms of musicality. It could be the Christine preamp trying to compete with preamps with great pedigree.
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ricevs.......where did I put that industrial designer said Mr. Alexander!?
Sorry - I couldn't resist. |
It will be interesting to hear your comments on how the noise floor is lowered. Do you have the Shunyata PC kit coming as well? |
WC I am curious as to why you did not install a wall or ceiling mount screen and treat the front wall. One LARGE variable in image everything is to, as a minimum, install diffusion back there. |
To be clearer wall mount roll down or ceiling mount roll down screen so facilitate wall treatments. |
Interesting question. Substitutie - Simaudio for Bryston |
