Again, I have an all JR system, with the 625 S2, Corus, and Aeris. In my system I did hear a "slight" difference when adding a Wireworld Platinum power cord, but a more audible difference when I added the Torus power conditioner.
Jeff Rowlands Amp and Dac vs. VAC amp and DAC
Hello, I am new to this forum but I have a question. I am trying to pair an amp + DAC with my Wilson Sabrinas. I have listened to Jeff Rowlands integrated with the Aeris DAC. And the VAC Sigma integrated with the Aeris DAC. Price is a factor and so is space. Does the 625 need a pre-amp? Any suggestions or thoughts?
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One thing I realized last night is that I didn't listen to tube amp and tube preamp. I have to go back to the store anyway, and will suggest it. But, to be honest, because of the many hours that I watch film and my family uses it for TV, the ease of use was one of the things that factored into my decision. I hear the difference between the JR and VAC, but as one person asked earlier on 'are there any systems you would not be happy with'? They are both great. Who wouldn't be happy with either one!!! I feel so fortunate to be able to even be in the position to be able to say that. I might wear Chanel with Dior? A scarf? Perfume? Eyeglasses? But then who can afford Dior and/or Chanel. I think you are right, though, I will hear tube and tube and hear for myself how that combo is. I owe it to myself to finish the search. So, my friends, we are not at the last chapter just yet. In terms of power cords, oh no. Actually I do have a Crystal Cable power cord I can use — maybe on the DAC? Thanks for the suggestions on CDs. I will be listening to the Corus pre-amp as well (not tube), and VAC — maybe I should start another thread!!! LOL |
Purists would not mix Chanel with Dior, even though both are French. Chanel is best with Chanel and Dior with Dior. I've seen excellent combinations but they were not the best. But tube preamp as a buffer when using digital source is not a bad idea if carefully selected. I guess, in my heart I am a purist after all. |
Tube preamp with SS amplifier is a very popular choice for many audiophiles so I don’t agree with Inna’s "purist audiophile " definition. Rinpoche congratulations on your decision, I suspected that the convenience aspect of the JR (transistors ) would be an important feature. You certainly are impressed with the sound quality and it’s a fine match given your speaker’s load characteristics. I wish you many years of listening enjoymentwith this well chosen pairing. Charles, |
I don't know if you have considered this, but your new Rowland amp will need a good power cord, not that it will sound bad with the stock one. You don't have to match the power cord to your other cables, only to the component you are going to use it with. But let the new amp break-in for at least a few hundred hours before comparing power cords, if that's what you will want to do. Your Rowland DAC wouldn't mind good cord either, by the way. If you ask for a advice here you will get recommendations for one hundred brands. Also, if you buy cds, in my experience Japanese cds always sound better, always. JVC XRCDs are quite consistent. Some American cds by audiophile companies like Chesky, Acoustic Sounds, Water Lilli and others can be excellent too. You might also want to use cd treatment, Walker Audio is popular but there are others. I don't listen to digital much so I use inexpensive Optrix treatment. All my treated CDs including Japanese sound better than untreated. At the very least rinse them with lukewarm water and wipe off with soft cloth not paper towel which is abrasive. |
Hello, I went to hear the VAC 200 iq system today. It is very beautiful. I think you would all agree it is engaging and warm and in a word gorgeous. However, I also listened to the JR with a tube preamp and I must say it was even better. So, I think the way to go is the Rowland for now and add a preamp when I can afford it down the road. The preamp with the Rowland completed the circle. It gave me a VAC sound with the ease of solid state. I think this is going to work out just fine. Your help and advice and suggestions have been fabulous. Oh, by the way, I recommend a piece for you to play. It is called Prayer Cycle and the track is called Benediction with Linda Rondstadt and Nusreh Fateh Ali Khan. The words are 'made up'. Not a real language, and it sounded so so beautiful today all three times I listened to it, but the fullest was the JR and tube preamp (ARC). So so so nice. I think I am almost at the finish line -- for now (LOL). R |
This should sound like ...well, this should sound right with Wilsons. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-27-000-lamm-m2-2-hybrid-power-amplifier-2016-06-11-amp... Take a lot of space though. |
YOU HAVE DONE MORE THAN YOUR BEST. YOU HAVE 'ALL' BEEN AMAZING. I HOPE TO HEAR THE VAC 200 THIS WEEKEND. AND I WILL LET YOU KNOW HOW IT SOUNDS. I CAN'T WAIT. AS JON2020 SAID, 'A MONTH AND NO AMP, NO INTERCONNECTS, NO MUSIC AND NO INSPIRATION' LOL. YOU ARE SUCH AN AMAZING COMMUNITY OF KNOWLEDGE AND MUSICAL INTELLIGENCE. THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR THOUGHTFUL AND KIND ASSISTANCE. I HAVE LEARNED SO SO MUCH. APPRECIATIVELY, R |
Let's just remember that this is MP3 sound, so the caution is required. I had heard Paco de Lucia live play that custom Conde that I mentioned. It was absolutely incredible instrument. I never heard Montero guitar. Rinpoche, I think, has an excellent hearing, and this presents a problem of a sort. She wants a combination of VAC and Rowland sound. Gonzalez guitar represents a kind of successful fusion of the two with a tilt, to my ear, to Montero. So...this is tough. We are also talking only about digital source, as I understand, no turntable or reel to reel deck. Plus the ability to play movies well. Double tough. I do have an impression that Rinpoche really likes the way Rowland controls the speakers even if it doesn't quite have the VAC's 'seductive magic'. Only she herself can choose, we did our best to help. |
"If you like more the guitar by Antonio Marin Montero - you probably want VAC amp, if the one by Conde - probably Rowland." - Inna "As for the guitarists, I liked both. But I really liked the piece by Gonzalez. T(W)hat amp would that constitute?" - Rinpoche "Gonzalez, as they say, worked for 20 years in Montero shop, and I can hear that. Besides, his guitar has rosewood back and sides not cypress. Excellent sound indeed." - Inna Inna, If Gonzalez worked 20 years in the Montero shop, then the amp that goes with Gonzalez would be VAC? - if I understand it correctly. J. |
Inna, Thanks, I will take that into consideration. In Canada, the LAMM sells for $30,000++ depending on the deal. And I will not listen to top of the line VAC or I will never buy anything else. LOL As for the guitarists, I liked both. But I really liked the piece by Gonzalez. That amp would that constitute? |
Great Paco de Lucia flamenco guitarist played custom Conde guitars, and I can see why. The Conde is fast precise and balanced with brilliant high frequences. The Montero is warmer deeper and more sophisticated. I would take the Montero any day. My final piece of advice could be this - do not listen to LAMM or close to top of the line VAC unless you consider them for the future. If you do you may not want anything less. I think, used pre/power amps from LAMM would cost at least $20K, and this would not be his best. Perhaps much older models could be found for $10k - $12K for both. |
rinpoche; For what it is worth, I have Silnote IC & digitals in all 3 of my systems - Morpheous in my headphone system, Posiedon in my 2nd system, Posiedon & Orion in my main system. Musical to my ears in all cases, may or may not be for you but a possible consideration. Good luck with the rest of your search |
Hi rinpoche, I echo the recommendation to postpone any cable quest until you have selected your amplifier and broken it in to perfection. If you fiddle with cables prior to the equipment having stabilized completely, you are bound to get results that are as bizarre as they are fleeting. Meantime, your Crystal cables are very fine wires... They will constitute a stable platform onto which to baseline your eventual wiring quest. Best,
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rinpoche I was seeing that cable as an easy relatively low cost way to get you started and listen before you blew big bucks on a pair of interconnects. Also an advantage of buying cables use is the good old audition and flip, buy, listen, evaluate, and resell if the cable doesn't suit. A break even proposition and a great way to evaluate cables in your own system. Cheers! |
Well, used listings for interconnects are a bit daunting, but if you help me de-mystify the field I might be able to pick up something quite decent used. Here are my questions: 1.) should i try to find a used Crystal Cable to create a synergy with my speaker cable? 2.) should i start from scratch with the interconnect and then use that as a frame of reference if and or when I try other speaker cables farther down the road? 3.) what do you think of these current used cables: a. synergistic research tesla series precision reference XLR 4.5 feet $800 b. there is a tara labs ISM XLR interconnect for $875 but then in the very next listing a TARA LABS Zero Gold for $8000 (demo). so that is it I am seeing at 875? something very very old? c. Silnote Morpheus Reference II for 495 There is this whole combination of things with Synergistic Research (speaker cables, interconnect, etc.) called Galileo -- though the interconnects are RCA, can they be re-terminated XLR or is that a crazy question? And it has bananas whereas I am using spades? ETC. Or, any other advice would be so wonderful. Thanks everyone!!!!!!!! You are the best. |
rinpoche There is nothing that necessarily requires your changing your speaker cables down the road aside from if you don't like the sound with your new equipment. If I interpreted an earlier post correctly it seems like you auditioned the equipment under consideration at American Sounds; if so then you either also auditioned, Kimber , Audioquest ,Transparent, or Ansuz , those are the cables the website indciates it carries. Would suggest again that you consider asking the dealer what he had hooked up with the equipment you listened to. |
If you think that there is synergy in having the same interconnect as speaker cable, I could look around and see what is out there.Opinions are divided on that question, which involves what is often referred to as "loom theory." For example, see the following threads: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-about-loom-theory https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/power-cord-brands-mixing-quot-your-opinions-quot (The second thread initially focused just on power cords, but eventually broadened in scope to address all cables). As you'll see, I happen to be one of those who do not subscribe to that theory, for the reasons I stated in the threads. Best, -- Al |
Thank you jond for looking and sending that listing. My cables are Standard Diamond series which is a bit higher up than the Micro (and thus more costly). If you think that there is synergy in having the same interconnect as speaker cable, I could look around and see what is out there. But, if I am going to change speaker cable down the road, do you think it might be better to start with a different interconnect and work from there? Since with the interconnects I am starting from scratch? Maybe there is a CC Diamond interconnect for sale. It is a bright and lively cable. I did hear it against Nordost, which sounded heavier and darker, if that makes any sense. But I have not heard any other cables. In my 'old' system I had AudioQuest cables (that looked a lot like garden hoses). What do you think? |
rinpoche not sure what your system configuration is now or how you were listening to music before or if your going to need balanced or single ended cables. All that being said given the fact that you have Crystal speaker cables this looked interesting: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/interconnects-crystal-micro-silver-60-interconnect-2016-05-29-cabl... Same brand so hopefully some synergy there, affordable at $275 used and the seller is in Canada. I don't know the seller but plenty of positive feedback and buying affordable used cable is typically an easy and very low risk proposition. |
Okay, I listened to both guitarists. And, here is the thing, I liked them both! Yes, at first I was drawn to Conde, but on second hearing I felt equally involved in Montero. In a way, an ideal test would be if they played the same piece. I see the differences you are getting at. Softer and warm on one hand, or crisper yet musical on the other hand. Very interesting test. Thank you. As for the interconnect cables, it just looked like a good deal. I am sure my dealer will also have suggestions. If I could find something good that is used I would save some a bit of money. I will use balanced XLR for sure. I don't think I need more than 1 meter. I have a colleague who swears by a cable made locally that costs $45.00. He has tried many cables and goes back to this one regularly. He said it might be a great place to start? |
Hi Rinpoche, Regarding the interconnects that would be used at the output of the Aeris DAC, I note the following statement in the Aeris’ description: Transformer balanced XLR line outputs provide outstanding output common-mode noise rejection, eliminate potential ground loops, and ensure compatibility with other equipment.I also note that it has a 120 ohm output impedance, which although not especially low is considerably lower than in many other designs. I suspect that those factors will result in that DAC having somewhat less sensitivity to cable differences (at its balanced analog outputs) than would be the case in many other circumstances. Especially if the length that is necessary is only 1 meter, as most analog cable effects are proportional to length. Best, --Al |
That is an interesting suggestion! I will try the guitars. And get back to you. Thanks!! See, it is clear, cables are very subjective! Also, within the various brands suggested there are different grades. So that is also a question. Also, in terms of cables (interconnects), perhaps I could look for something used? E.g., these are available at a dealer near me (I have no idea how old they are): Nordost Valhalla XLR 1M interconnects. B-stock cable with a minor blemish, functionally perfect. Top tier resolution from top to bottom with an expansive soundstage. $4499.99 MSRP when current. Asking $1895 (in Canadian Dollars). |
Rinpoche, I have an unusual suggestion. I suspect that you have a good hearing. Go to www.mundo-flamenco.com ; it is a place that sells good acoustic guitars. Click on the 'guitars' and listen to the guitars that are not for sale. It's MP3 but you can hear the difference quite clearly. If you like more the guitar by Antonio Marin Montero - you probably want VAC amp, if the one by Conde - probably Rowland. They are both great guitars. |
Yes, Mogami cables. One of the reasons why the recordings are of poor quality. They are okay at best nothing more. You don't want this stuff for Rowland and VAC. DiMarzio is better, I still keep the RCA pair, but I don't think he makes them any longer. For serious comparison I would try Purist, High Fidelity, Stealth, Jorma, Tara, Wireworld. They might all give an excellent but somewhat different sound. Then it will be a matter of taste. |
Cables are about system synergy...no such animal as the best. I have an all Jeff Rowland system driving Monitor Audio PL500's and I use Wireworld Platinum interconnect and power cables. I use Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 speaker cable. There are too many possible combinations, so try a couple and choose what sounds best to your ears. |
Hi Rinpoche, Regarding interconnects, if I recall correctly all of the equipment possibilities that have been mentioned would be suitable for use with balanced XLR interconnects. While opinions about cable selection tend to be all over the map, as you may have seen in any number of other cable-related threads, FWIW my suggestion is that initially, at least, you simply purchase some inexpensive Mogami Gold Studio balanced cables. And who knows, despite their modest price you may find them to be suitable for use permanently. Those cables, by the way, are the de facto interconnect of choice in professional recording studios worldwide. Best, -- Al |
Yes, I have Crystal 'Diamond' speaker cable and a power cord. I am sorry I don't know exactly what cables (speaker or interconnects) were used. Maybe be 'Transparent'? I don't know but I can ask. I believe the interconnects to the JR were balanced. Also, pokey77 — love all the musical suggestions. Joshua Judges Ruth is fabulous and so is Jeff Buckley's Grace. Every track you suggest!!! Lilac Wine is amazing. |
Rinpoche Nice advice provided here. You mentioned Jeff Buckley and a song from Grace. I think that Tracks 1, 2, 3 & 7 are pretty amazing on that record. You also mentioned Lyle Lovett. Check out Joshua Judges Ruth. I think Tracks 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11 are all great demo tracks from that record. But perhaps my favorite track on that record is North Dakota. It is heart-breakingly lovely and it really sounds good on a music making machine. What you'll be auditioning would easily be in that category. So, go have some fun and let us know how it goes. And remember, just take music that you love and know sounds good and then you'll know how each amp/speaker combo sounds.
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rinpoche an overall piece of advice, one i learned later in this hobby, slow down and perhaps try to just enjoy the process as much as your goal. I mean your shopping for a new stereo system how exciting is that?? And as I like to sometimes tell people the very best deal out there........is equipment you already own! So totally check out the Crystal Cables with your new gear it costs nothing and you may love the combo. Not to mention those are very well regarded cables in their own right the sister company of Siltech if I remember correctly. |
I’ll second Facten’s comment just above. Also, keep in mind that cable effects tend to be particularly application-dependent, and the sonic effects of a given cable may often depend as much or more on what the cable is connecting than on whatever intrinsic sonic character the cable may have. With those dependencies generally not having a great deal of predictability. That being one reason why it is not at all uncommon for a considerably less expensive cable to outperform a considerably more expensive cable in a given system, as is borne out by many experiences that have been reported here and elsewhere. Best, --Al |
rinpoche, " At the moment, I have Crystal Cables but they might not be enough for the JR or VAC? They are not crazy expensive in the scheme of what is out there, but they were crazy expensive to me (used). However, I might have to change? " If it were me I'd get settled on the equipment first, get it into my system using my current cables, allow sufficient time for the equipment to break in while I listen along the way and determine my satisfaction. I'd hold off on injecting an additional variable at this time; but just my 2 cents |
This is so good. Everyone is talking and everyone is listening to each other. So great. Yes, Angie is the one and I am in Canada. I will say hi when I see her next time. At the moment, I have Crystal Cables but they might not be enough for the JR or VAC? They are not crazy expensive in the scheme of what is out there, but they were crazy expensive to me (used). However, I might have to change? I don't know the brands other than Nordost and Shunyata that were mentioned. I will look into it. In terms of music -- let's keep exchanging ideas. It is so great to learn what other listen to. Have any of you heard John Campbell singing Way Down in the Hole or Leonard Cohen? Here is the youtube to Campbell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8oXSmK3uoE Also, I find it really really hard to narrow it down to 4 songs. I think Jennifer Warnes singing Somewhere Somebody comes to mind and so does Jeff Buckley singing something maybe 'Hallelujah' and maybe even Lyle Lovett singing something? Eric Clapton and B. B. King singing Come Rain or Come Shine? There are so many songs to listen to. And so on and on!! I love Anita Baker. |
With Rowland gear, Elrod wires would not be my first choice.... In my system, Elrod PCs tended to filter the treble and swell the mid bass. Brands of wire products with which I have had amazing results are Shunyata, Nordost Valhalla II, and High Fidelity Cables (HFC) made by Rick Schultz in Dallas. G. |
