Jeff Rowlands Amp and Dac vs. VAC amp and DAC

Thank you for saying that. I really appreciate the advice and experience of this forum. Yes, I have been told that the VAC will plug and play and then, of course, need servicing, but I also want to use it to watch/listen to films and even TV. That means, the tubes will be on more often than if I only used it for listening to music. Do any of you use a tube amp for film and TV? 

Any other suggestions?

I hope you will indulge me a bit here. I have heard the VAC Sigma 160iSE and the JR 625 upgrade both with the Aeris as the DAC. I am a bit nervous about tubes. This would be my first time with a tube amp. I do agree that the VAC is amazing. The JR is also good and it is a bit easier given it is plug and play and no tweaking, changing tubes, etc. is required -- so are tubes really difficult? Is the sound worth it? I agree that the VAC is fabulous but the JR is also very nice. Please say more on the topic if you can? 

Thank you. I appreciate the detailed information. It is well beyond my comprehension, but I do understand your bottom line advice. I have not heard either amps with the Wilson speakers. I would have to take them to the store and I don't really think I can manage that. The store does not seem open to letting me bring the amps home. I listened on bigger Focal speakers -- and more expensive Focal speakers. They both sounded very good, but tubes (as I am realizing) have a little magic that SS doesn't. But, the JR was really good as well. The owner of the store thinks it should be fine with the Wilson's. I emailed the Wilson people and they also like VAC, VTL, and ARC with the Sabrinas. Thing is, everything costs so much (to my mind) and I want to get it right. Your help is part of the process and it is appreciated. 

By the way, do you have suggestions for other amp pairings with the Wilson Sabrinas? I am open-minded at this point. 

There is a VAC Phi 200 used for sale. I could pair that with a new VAC pre-amp (an entry model) if you think that might help with the issues you are describing. Wilson Audio approved the Sigma SE but that doesn't mean they have paired them. In terms of an in-home audition, I think this is a very good idea. The Rowland gear is, I think, less of a problem but I would loose that magical tube sound. Yet, I would gain in ease of use and given I will be adding in TV, maybe that is a good thing. See why I started this thread!!! It is like comparing two delicious desserts, and you can't eat both of them. Would love more of your excellent thoughts on this!! Thanks

Thank you -- I will ask if they will do it. When I asked one of the guys in the shop he said, 'bring in your speakers'. They have been around a long time so I will see if they are willing to do it. It is one DAC and 2 amps. Should be worth it for a purchase of this magnitude, as you rightly say. That is a great suggestion. Thanks.

I am very appreciative. I did write to Kevin and he thought the Sigma would be great. He also said the Phi 200 would be great, but both would be excellent choices. The used Phi, however, would not be warrantied as far as I understand because it is coming from the US to Canada, so that sort of stopped me from pursuing it fully. As I mentioned, I don't have experience with tubes. This is a new adventure for me. I am a bit nervous but also trying not to be intimidated (as a woman I am not as sure about biasing and rolling and tweaking tubes -- yet, but I am sure I will learn). All of your suggestions are valuable. The best thing would be if the store would come to my house to audition the JR and VAC amps. That would be great. Are there any other amps I should be looking at that will be reliable and easy to run in this price range (with the Sabrinas)? 

That is so interesting and helpful. I went to the store initially to hear the ARC GSi75. I then compared it to the JR and the VAC, and you are right it is great. And all in one -- but the VAC won me over. That is why I narrowed it down to the VAC or JR for the differences they bring -- tubes vs. SS. If it sounded good with the ARC it will sound great with either of the other two amps. Your comments are so so helpful. Thanks, I really appreciate you sharing that. Makes me very happy. I am using a Devialet 200 at the moment and can't wait to upgrade. It was all I could afford both price wise and space wise at the time. I can now expand and I am very much looking forward to it. 

You are all so helpful and knowledgeable. Perhaps this is not the forum to ask, but what it 'gain'? 

Thank you all. This has been very helpful and informative. I have learned a lot. My experience of listening to the JR 625 (upgrade) and the Aeris as well as the VAC was great. If I didn't have the VAC to listen to after I would be very happy with the JR equipment. And it is easier overall to work with (for film and TV). But, I think that the VAC had a little extra magic. I guess that is the tube vs. SS issue. Once I get all the costs and details of what it might cost each time I have to change the 4 main tubes, I will decide. I know I will be happy with either one, but if I go with the JR will I always be thinking "what would the VAC have been like?" And the first time I have to bias myself I will be thinking "should I have gone with the JR!" If these were the biggest problem one had in life, it would be amazing. Thank you all and if there are any other voices of wisdom I would love to hear. 

Your words are very helpful. I appreciate that. I am not really an audiophile. But I LOVE listening to music on a great sound system. I am not sure why more women are not passionate about it too. Anyway, it is not the 'gear' per se that draws me but the sound that the gear produces. I was reading on another thread about the Sabrinas and it just seemed to get so personal and a bit hostile. Anyway, thank you for saying that. I don't have enough experience with too many other speakers to really be knowledgeable enough. But I have really enjoying listening to them and now want to pair them with a really good amp. That is my goal. I am back to being nervous about tubes — vs. SS — where this thread started. I am not sure if I am up to it? Do you think that a SS amp with a tube preamp will give me the 'sound' I am looking for? Engaging, warm, and magical? I guess I have to hear it for myself. That is what I am taking away from this thread. Bottom line, I need to meditate on this.

Seems we are all agreed — VAC wins! I am feeling bad though because I was reading a thread that totally trashes Wilson speakers. I think the Sabrinas are really perfect in so many ways. I had to save space so they fit in really nicely. But the thread I read makes it seem as if people who purchase Wilson's have no soul. I am not sure why people disparage others for their choices, but in my mind they are really lovely. Maybe I could do better but there are limited funds (e.g., Raidho, Vandersteen, and so on) — this is a very expensive adventure. I appreciate all that you put into your set ups and so on. I haven't even begun to think about cables. And I am shy to say what I am using presently. I know I need a good interconnnect between the Aeris and amp + so if that is something you know about I would love to hear this too.

Yes, please say more re: SS amp and tube preamp. Would a tube preamp need less 'work'? Or are you saying that by not using it all the time it would be better and the sound experience similar. Any suggestions or combos? I am grateful to the thoughtful comments here — I am very appreciative. 

You are the best!

Also, waiting to hear some suggestions for amp/pre-amp pairings? If this is a viable alternative to the VAC integrated + DAC and the Rowland DAC and 625 in the same price range. 

No Thiels in this set up. For now larger Focal, VAC, JR and I believe Transparent cables. 

That is excellent. The recommendations are all very good. I will try to see if we have dealers in the area that carry those brands. I did listen to the Rowland integrated and it didn't have the same beauty as the 625 (which really does compete with the VAC -- except minus that little tube magic I have been referring to). I have heard very good things about the Hegel and some of the other DACS you mentioned. Great idea. Thanks!

The TV and film aspect of the system is one of my concerns about choosing tubes over SS. I don't really have enough room for two sets of speakers and another receiver. We could just use the TV alone for sound on a day-to-day basis and use the 'complete system' for films and perhaps our favourite shows. The Jeff Rowland 625 S2 won't be an issue, but the VAC, I think, will. We do watch a fair bit of TV because I am working on a book on film at the moment, but again I don't need to have it through the main system all the time. My main interest and purpose here is music, and secondarily to have access to TV and film when desired. I think it would mean going through tubes more often, is that right? Sort of like servicing a car if you drive it more? Or are there other issues I don't know about? Is the VAC delicate? Can it take more hours of useage? Or is it just going through the tubes faster and having to replace them? 

Yes, the advice here has been fabulous. Thank you all so much.

Hello again to all of you. I wonder, could I hook the Jeff Rowlands Aeris DAC to a VAC Phi 200 amp directly? Do I need an integrated amp or a pre-amp? Doesn't the Aeris act as a pre-amp, at least for now? I mean, what do you think?  

Thank you. This is helpful. I wonder if you could elaborate as to what exactly the new VAC 170IQ and 200IQ are? I don't see them on the VAC website. Am I missing something? 

Thank you all again. I will try to listen to the IQ gear this weekend and see how it compares both in price and sound with the Sigma and the Rowland. I am booked to listen on Saturday morning. Not with the Wilson's but with speakers at the shop. I will take Al's advice to heart and all of your inputs when listening. There is a lot to digest here and it has been amazingly useful. Instructive. Thoughtful. And informative. I can't thank you all enough for your time and wisdom. Will let you know how it goes if you are interested!!!!

You know, that is a great question: what speakers I will listening to at the shop. The shop insists a 3-way is a 3-way. I feel a bit pushed on this one, but there are so few high-end shops in my neighbourhood. They used big Focal speakers that cost $10,000 more than the Sabrinas. So, I agree it is not a fair audition. I am trying, though, to hear the differences in the amps -- but are you saying the JR gear is more suited to the Sabrinas. The Wilson people I spoke to at Wilson Audio love VTL, VAC, ARC, and Nagra tubes with the Sabrinas. They said they pair well, in their opinion. I asked for a home audition but I don't see that happening. Is it the norm for shops to do that? 

You are all so sweet. Thanks for pulling for me. I will insist on a home audition -- I totally agree this is only fair especially at these prices. They said I should bring the speakers to them. To be honest, I was flabergasted. I mean they are not easy to transport -- the amps are so much easier.

I will let you all know how it goes and yes please keep rooting for me. It really helps. You have all really helped. In fact, you have already changed my mind to hear the 170 or 200 IQ. So, I am taking your advice and checking into it thoroughly. 

Good news. The stereo store owner has offered to do a home audition once I confirm the amp (or two) that I have narrowed it down to. That is a relief. And, they are getting in the 200IQ in a week so I can also hear that. All is moving along and all of you who contributed to this thread played a major part. As I say each time — THANK YOU. Whatever experience or advice you have to share is really welcomed and is being digested and used in both my negotiations with the store and my own listening education. Hey, should we start talking about great songs to use for an audition!!!!!! LOL

I will. It doesn't arrive in the shop for another week, but I will definitely let you (all) know. R

It is possible for me to audition the Momentum with the Wilson's. The Wilson dealer also sells D'Agostino. But the price is crazy for me! I am barely scraping to afford the VAC and the JR is even a bit more. I have no doubt it is stunning in many ways!! Thank you for you suggestion. I will also seriously consider the JR. It is also beautiful in its weight and clarity. I started the thread because it is a hard decision and both amps have their benefits. Will let you know.

Well, in many ways the audition was great BUT both amps have their plusses and minuses. For example, the JR is deep and rich. It has a control quality that seems to excel in the midrange which, in my opinion, is gorgeous. Remember, I don't know the technical terms for these things but it is what I heard. I would say it is a mature amp. One that you could live with for a long time. Was it analytical? Maybe. And this is where the VAC Sigma comes in. Not as much punch (weight?), clarity or sound distinction, but an overall presence that is engaging. For acoustic vocals the JR wins hands down in my view. For chorus pieces maybe the VAC. For quartets, opera and classical they seem even in some ways. I missed the JR when the VAC was on, and the VAC when the JR was on. Perhaps when I go to hear the IQ both of these differences will be captured. Or, as some of you have suggested, a tube pre-amp down the road with the JR. Does that sum it up? 

I wonder if you could expand on what you mean by 'ohm tap' and which amp would be best in that regard with the Sabrinas?

The JR will probably provide the power the Sabrinas need, but will the VAC Sigma and the 200 IQ? I felt the VAC was a bit bright (?) at times with these larger Focal speakers. But I still have yet to hear them amps with my own speakers. Once we narrow it down, I trust that will happen.

Wow, that was amazing. And in some broad sense I think I understand. Not the technical specificities, but the general theory you explained. I will remember that when I go to hear the 200 iq. I am a bit obsessed now, wanting it to be done — and just to be home listening, but it is a process and the results will be something I live with for a while to come, so patience here is a virtue. Thank you all, especially Al, for explaining and walking me through the intricacies of this exciting adventure. I hear you — LOL, no pun intended. 

Again, a lot of good information is arising in this thread. To answer the question about what other speakers I auditioned -- I didn't. I had no intention of even purchasing speakers. I went to a Sabrina audition with Peter McGrath and lo and behold I was hooked. At the time it was used with MacIntosh equipment (not my favourite) but they sounded just great. I loved everything about them. The were refined, warm and yet alive all at the same time. I love the cabinet (also important to me). And by selling my older equipment I could afford them. I haven't listened to anything else. I think they are perfect. I just want to pair them with a good amp and be happy listening!! 

Thanks so much Al. I got it!! 

For now the 625 S2 would be connected directly to the Aeris. Same with the VAC. However, and I do hesitate to throw some other amps into the discussion, but what do you feel about Dan A'gostino The Classic Amp? Is that a crazy alternative? Too much for the little Sabrinas? 

The tap discussion is way above my head but I am writing it down and when I go to the shop to hear the VAC 200 iq system I will ask about it. If the VAC 200 iq is one of the winners, and I get to bring it home to try with the Wilson's -- I will report back on the combo for sure. But, if I hear you both correctly, the 8 tap is possibly the one to try first? Then the 4?

Also, from what I understand, the JR amp doesn't need anything like this, right? It just needs to be adjusted via the Aeris according to the manual.

I am happy to hear there are fans of the JR 625S2/Aeris combination. And VAC lovers as well. At least I know I am in the right zone. Thanks

So far, it sounds like JR is still winning for combining great sound and ease of use. And perhaps the VAC 200iq is next given its new self-biasing feature, though I have still to hear it. The exciting listening adventure continues!! 

Do you think I should try the ARC reference 150 with the Aeris? Or the Air Tight tube amp? Or am I going in too many directions?

I wish it was easier to audition the amps with the speakers. It is an expensive journey and I won't have a lot of time with the pairings. So, let's all hope my ears (and my heart) are open to the music. Thank you again and again. 

Hello. Just to update you all -- I went to listen to two new amps this morning: a Hegel integrated (they didn't have the H-30) and a Luxman. As nice as they were, in my mind (and heart) they were not as engaging as the JR and/or VAC integrated. When I asked the salesman/owner if he would recommend or if he had anything else to listen to he did mention something in the $35,0000 range and then he bascially said 'go and buy those if you want something commercial'. Also, her was aghast at digital music (which I do use for many reasons) and said something about a "Stradivarius"? Well, on to the next!!!!

Hello everyone. I would love your input on this. Today I went to hear a PS Audio amp (BHK 250) along with either a PS Audio DAC, a Sim Audio 750D DAC/cd transport and at one point we added in a VTL pre-amp. It sounded very good. My question(s) are: what do you think of the PS Audio BHK250. It is a hybrid (though you all probably know that). And what do you think of the SimAudio 750D instead of the Jeff Rowlands Aeris DAC? Any insights you could provide would be great. There are so many great pieces out there, it is now hard to figure it all out!!! Input is welcome. And the VAC 200 is not in yet so no news to report on that front. 

You are adorable. And I can hardly wait to get something. BUT I am still waiting for the VAC 200 iq to come in so I can listen to it. I am finding the wait a bit brutal, but patience is going to pay off down the line. I have decided not to go with the PS Audio. It is still between the JR and VAC -- unless some of you have other suggestions. I rejected the ARC GSi75 -- it was good but I thought the JR and the VAC were better. There is a pair of JR 725 monoblocks for sale???? but I feel badly for the store if I go that route. Am I crazy?

I hear you. Thanks for the support. I agree. But, my wallet is not deep. So, hopefully I will get it right the first time. I will let you know as soon as I make the plunge, 

Your sober advice resonates! I was started to see who carries Lamm and Kharma! Not the same dealer. Not even in the same province. Okay. Stay the course. One step at a time. I am on the right track. Trust my heart and my ears. And when possible ask, listen, and learn from others. Got it!!

Thank you all again and again for your honesty and your sage advice.

Sorry for the lengthy response, but maybe this will help. First, I don't really see myself as an audiophile or view this adventure as a hobby. Believe it or not, I just want to buy a great 'stereo' so I can really engage with the music. My goal (and maybe this is true for all of you as well) is to get it right and live with it until I need to go to take it to next level — should that time arise. I don't know how to tweak. And in a way that is why I was a bit leary of tubes but willing to learn 'for the music'. 

Now, you can judge me if you like, but for 15 years I was quite happy with my Mark Levinson amps and CD transport and B&W 802's speakers in my home. Then, I sold my home and needed to scale down. I heard the Wilson's and really liked them. I thought a good amp would be the next move. But, from some of the advice I am getting here, it sounds like 'starting over' from scratch is perhaps preferable.

But I have a full time job (as I am sure most of you do too). I am in the middle of writing a book and want to listen to music to inspire me. Create a kind of transcendental experience as it were. So, while going to hear various combinations of amps and speakers is exciting and makes a lot of sense, it is also very time consuming. And where would I go? Dealers where I live seem to specialize in certain amps with certain speakers. If I want to mix and match how does one do that? Also, I already have the Wilsons (as polarizing as they might be — obviously I see that some people LOVE them, and some people don't). 

Therefore, to recap, so far I have heard:
1. JR, VAC, and ARC with Focal
2. PS Audio with Audio Physic
3. Hegel integrated with Wilson Benesch
4. Luxmann with Wilson Benesch
5. Air Tight with Harbeth

I eliminated #3 and #4 very quickly. Also, ARC didn't really match JR or VAC. And #5 was very very sweet for an introductory level set up. The two that have been most engaging to my ears so far are still the JR and VAC (but I think I should hear the 200 iq with self biasing).

However, I have not yet to hear any of the amps with the Wilsons. Who knows, maybe when I do I will be disappointed and see that they are a weak link? I could try to find dealers as products are suggested? THANKS  — oh, and then there will be cables!!!!!

Hello, 
I just contacted a LAMM dealer and the M1.2 monoblocks sell for $27,190 USD. So, given that — as much as I am sure they sound gorgeous, it is out of my budget. I appreciate the help, but I really can't afford that right now. But, as you can see, I am open to suggestions within reason. I mean, who wouldn't love a $30,000 amp!!!!!

What are break-in test tones? 
Are you saying after the first 1500 hours if its the JR? Cuz I can't wait that long!!!!!

I am so fortunate to hear from all of you. Really. I mean that seriously. Not only are you all so knowledgeable, you are also giving and helpful....and funny (see jon2020). Okay, so maybe I am in denial. But I hear that cables are important! No? 

And, inna, you are so right. I am torn. Solid state is easier and I am anticipating that tubes might be more fiddly (also I need it for TV and film). But maybe worth it! So, good idea to suggest a hybrid. In fact, that is why I went to hear the (demo) PS Audio amp. The LAMM/Kharma/Purist Audio could be my stereo goal — for my retirement (or with my retirement fund?). 

I am happy though that you all seem to like JR and VAC. Really. I don't want to make a mistake at these prices. It certainly won't be top of the line VAC — they are out of reach, or JR top of the line. But the 200 IQ is affordable. And who knows the Rowland might just win out in the end — we will see. Let me first hear the VAC (an early suggestion on this thread).

I am also really getting very excited to see how this turns out. What will be the first thing I play on it? Now that is a thread we should work on. What is the first song you play on your new stereo? You folks are fabulous. I mean that. 

Guido, wow, that is amazing. Okay. I have a list now. I see you like the Jeff Rowland equipment. So do I.

Mapman asked if there was one if there were any systems I would not be happy with from among the ones I have heard. To be honest, this is a great question too. I don't think I want to live with the PS Audio (I would always be thinking I could do better), or the ARC (though can't say why exactly — maybe it tries to do too many things all at once: amp, preamp, DAC, headphone amp). The Air Tight the shop had would not be sufficient to drive the Wilsons and they only bring in amps on order so that ruled that out. So that brings me back to the JR and VAC, where all of this started. If the JR and VAC Sigma were the only amps to choose from, I think I would go with the JR for ease of use and the 'weight' behind the sound (if that makes sense). The Sigma is really lovely, and though I haven't heard it with the (controversial) Wilson's, it lacks something by comparison. That is why I want to wait and hear the 200 IQ. And see if this is better. But JR for many reasons, some practical, is winning so far. 

I did come across an amp that looks lovely though there is no dealer where I live. It is called Einstein. I have no idea about price or anything else, but it has a nice look to it. And since I don't have a 'woman-cave' -- the equipment is right in the main living space, aesthetics are also important. JR wins hands down over VAC on this one -- though those little orange glowy tubes are nice to look at!!!

I will listen to the Dvorak pieces. Very exciting. 

I hear you (no pun intended, LOL). At first I will probably be a bit nervous about tubes, but I am sure I will get the hang of it, if I go that route. I wonder, what cables do you use with the Phi 200? 

Also, I will listen to the musical suggestions. I am not familiar with them. I have eclectic musical tastes that include jazz, classical, rock, world music, and even ...
broadway!

One of my go to songs this time around for auditioning has been Peter, Paul and Mary's All My Trials. Just pulled it from the vaults and it is a lovely acoustic song. I have other tests as well including Bach's double violin concerto, Prokofiev violin concerto #2 Andante, Diana Krall's version of A Case of You, Maria Callas singing 'La Mamma Morta', Keith Jarrett (who by the way walked out of a concert I attended last year in Paris because too many people were coughing), and many, many more. So much great music. Now all I need is an AMP!!

This is so good. Everyone is talking and everyone is listening to each other. So great. Yes, Angie is the one and I am in Canada. I will say hi when I see her next time. 
At the moment, I have Crystal Cables but they might not be enough for the JR or VAC? They are not crazy expensive in the scheme of what is out there, but they were crazy expensive to me (used). However, I might have to change? I don't know the brands other than Nordost and Shunyata that were mentioned. I will look into it. 
In terms of music -- let's keep exchanging ideas. It is so great to learn what other listen to. Have any of you heard John Campbell singing Way Down in the Hole or Leonard Cohen? Here is the youtube to Campbell 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8oXSmK3uoE
Also, I find it really really hard to narrow it down to 4 songs. I think Jennifer Warnes singing Somewhere Somebody comes to mind and so does Jeff Buckley singing something maybe 'Hallelujah' and maybe even Lyle Lovett singing something? Eric Clapton and B. B. King singing Come Rain or Come Shine? There are so many songs to listen to. And so on and on!! I love Anita Baker. 

Got it. Amp first. Cables later!!!!!!!
When that time comes, I might ask you all for suggestions. 

R