TW Acustic best sonding best made.
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Dear Iaxelrod: IMHO as important is the TT and the ones you name it are good performers what you have to check is if both run always at the choosed speed ( 33.33rpm/45rpm) and its speed stability. This IMHO is a factor that could make a difference when we are choosing for a TT.
After that the critical subject is how good is the match between the cartridge and tonearm along the quality performance of the phonolinepreamp that will process the cartridge signal to avoid cartridge signal degradation. Two other subjects that could help you to achieve the best quality performance level the cartridge is abble to shows you are the tonearm mount/arm board and the platter TT mat with out forget the tonearm internal wire headshel wires if any and tonearm/phono IC.
Perhaps the TT decision is the easy one.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Why do you line up their respective products as you have done? The Bardo and the Oasis are direct-drive. All of the Raven products are belt-drive. The LaGrange is a high end belt drive type. If you like direct-drive, don't consider any Raven. If you like belt-drive, my advice would be to stick with single-motor or double-motor set-ups, but that's just my opinion, and it's based only on hypothesis and "thought experiments". My bias among the belt-drive turntables would be toward the LaGrange, again with no data, only hearsay.
Here is some useful information, specially about Raven
Brinkmann is very new in USA I think, there won't be direct comparisons, when you have the chance to listen to one or the other, use a Timeline Strobe, that one is always good for some surprises ...
Sorry, but I didn't quite understand.
I've noticed you're a Micro-Seiki fan, and I have heard some Micro-Seiki decks - apart from the looks they really did not impress me. But, as you've said - this could be a setup issue, and I'm not planning "petting" my TT all day and all night - so Micro-Seikis are not for me.
Didn't quite understand what you've wrote about the TW. Could you please elaborate?
the Seiki has nothing to do with your question. The link has some answers about Raven Turntable from Users. Maybe it is helpful for your decision. Just an additional info. But when you don't want to tweak your Turntable all day long to get the best out of it, avoid Raven and go for Brinkmann. The answers are in this thread, too.
I've heard the Bardo, La Grange and all of the TW tables. Unfortunately, none of the systems were the same so there were no direct comparisons. From those experiences, I can't really say which turntable is best. What I can say is that I preferred the whole system that the La Grange was in by quite a bit. That system was the least colored to my ears and sounded really good. The Brinkmann tables were also all on active Vibraplanes for isolation.
I have heard the Bardo, Raven One and Raven AC. The Ravens were on the same system while the Bardo was on a completely different system. Both systems were fairly neutral but still not similar sonically. Raven is warmer than Bardo was my general guess. However I did not like either. I much preferred the likes of Avid Acutus, Volvere Sequel, Rega P9 and Platine Verdier.
All these comparisons with no mention of cartridge being used. Considering how much we compare cartridges as a sole sonic factor how can anyone begin to compare 2 turntables with out taking into consideration the cartridge.
Brinkman is often displayed with their own cartridge which definitely has it own sonic priorities. I would doubt any of the TW / Brinkman comparisons have any validity at all.
I have done comparisons on my turntable where comparing two different tonearm / cartridge combinations will lead to very similar sonics, while switching the cartridge between arms will lead to very different results.
In the end it is about buying the "system" that you like. If you heard the Brinkman & like it buy it. Same with the TW. Both are excellent designs. The flexibility of the TW was highly appealing to me and I love mine. I enjoyed playing wit different arms and cartridges having up to 4 at one time until I settled on 2.
Iaxelrod, Just to be accurate, the Lenco is a great turntable, but it is NOT direct-drive. It is an idler drive, like the Garrard 301/401 and the Thorens TD124. This means that the motor is in direct contact with a wheel that is also in direct contact with the platter. (The TD124 is not quite this simple.) The motor drives the platter through the motion of the wheel against the platter surface. I love my Lenco, but I would not recommend it for a novice unless you buy one that is "ready to roll" with all the necessary upgrades to get the best out of it. Artisan Fidelity and OMA sell turnkey revised Lencos, as does a gentleman named Peter Reinders in Europe. The Reinders Lenco can be found, I think, on Lenco Heaven website, where Lenco freaks go to worship. Probably a great sound for a little more than US$3000.
Someone commented that the Bardo does not differ much from the "sound" of other, belt-drive, Brinkmann turntables, despite its being DD. I suppose that's possible due to the use of similar build materials. The Oasis DD, I think, is upscale in cost and performance from the Bardo, but if you can afford a LaGrange, you can also afford an Oasis. Both Brinkmann DD's seem to use coreless motors, which is desirable, altho some great DD turntables use conventional motors, too. At this price level, and assuming that there is indeed a dealer in the US, you might be well advised to get on a plane and go hear some of these turntables you are considering. However, the experience will always be colored by tonearm, cartridge, phono stage, amplifier, speakers, etc. Thus you want to hear them in a single environment if possible.
I don't know either cartridge specifically but do know the family sound. The "characterization" of sound you give sounds more like the cartridge than the turntable based on your description.
As such, that makes both turntables fairly neutral. But neither cartridge is what I consider to push the limits of the turntable design.
No TW Turntable is neutral sounding. Based on some design flaws a lot of internal influences are reflected into the tracking process of any cartridge used. These colorations are politely ignored from all users, instead they attack those who don't share their opinion or even worse, try to "educate" them. In a way it is sad because much more clever designs are denied and the so-called "recommendations" aren't such, it is simply a owner's opinion to keep 2.hand pricing high. The Brinkmann is also not among those turntables which show design solutions which push the sonic curtain but it is a solid made unit. Sonically you will find 20 others out there which will show more or less same sonic results for much less money. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely don't care what someone owns, wants to buy or dreams about. But when the mediocre is pushed to something outstanding then this is a slap into the face of all those who do something better.
Linn LP12 is also a mediocre Design, but it is probably the most successful Turntable ever made. So, Listeners who understand what they hear, are a minority. One man's ceiling is another man's floor ...
I researched the Bardo and Oasis heavily before deciding on my Technics SP10. The Bardo and Oasis have the same drive mechanism and base platter, the only difference being that the Oasis has a plinth. Since the plinth imparts a sonic characteristic, the Oasis will sound different than the Bardo.
I highly recommend you contact Steve Klein at Sounds Of Silence. He's a Brinkmann dealer and will give you the straight dope on the entire line.
I would like to highlight two things:
1. Even though in a TT setup the TT-Tonearm-Cartridge is considered as one system, I am sure there are ways to pin down the sound of at least the TT and the cartridge to a certain extent if one has a decent exposure to the components. For example I have heard the TW in 3 different setups and the Cadenza Bronze on two setups and the Lyra Delos in 3 setups. It is like when you listen to a system you more or less can form an opinion on how the speaker sounds and how good is the CD player.
2. Secondly we seem to use the word "neutral" far too liberally. If a component is able to show the difference between two cables it is immediately termed as neutral. Whereas if we look at how neutral the component itself is, meaning how little it alters the source, most multi-thousand dollar equipments discussed here and on other forums would not even get through the qualifying rounds, but they are still termed neutral with various justifications.
Sunnyboy, what do you think? Hasn't high end audio always been contentious?
In this case it seem like there is a high level of narcissism in play. There is the self proclaimed expert who has some history with a product (a consumer product) where some expectation was not met, couldn't figure it out, had a bad system match, just had a bad day - who knows. There could have been an interaction with the manufacturer, a distributor ect. that this person did not like. He seem miffed. And thus if anyone else finds redeeming qualities with this product we get these posts with narcissistic rage. Why, because he (the narcissist) can't be wrong.
I find rather trust my own ears than others. I also rather try it in my system than others. I have heard many a system that I can't get close to pinning down the sound. I have heard the same system sound great one day and terrible the other.
Not saying you didn't hear what you heard but it isn't enough to make a firm conclusion but it is enough to guide a decision in your case for your sonic bias.
I will add there are a few turntables I have heard that each time I hear it it sounds wonderful. I am not talking of TW. I have heard TWs only in very few systems other than my own.
The same applies to CD players.
But I do prefer musical over detailed or as some might say fat juicy (not to fat mind you) images versus etched and thin sound.
You are g-d to those of you who will listen to you. You know better than all. Mercilessly ruining another TW thread as you have nothing else to do.
I really wonder how much you get off on this. Must be a rush as you can't get it elsewhere. You can't stand that a fellow country man is successful when you are not. Isn't it just sad. This wonderful open forum is where you can somehow feel validated and better than all other posters here and you have better ears than us all.
Dear syntax / Thomas,
No TW turntable is neutral sounding. Based on some design error many internal influences in the tracking method according to any of the cartridge used resist.Can you elaborate, please?
P.S. Other paragraphs of your post look as if you just want to degrade TW turntable owners. Have TW or have TW owner pestered you? Please let us know.
Dgad, stop it! You are feeding the narcissist! Did you really type "g-d" above. So the "-" should be an "o"? So Snidetax, I mean sissytax, whatever-tax is a GOD!!!
Holy cow, let me think about this for a minute... But yet you say he is not successful. Could you say more on this subject? Enquiring minds want to know...
Dgad, please take no offence to the elaboration of your post. Just trying to take the ball and run with it.
You nailed it with the idea of how this is a forum killer. We are talking about niche consumer electronics. Most of the world does not give a flying F&^k about this stuff.
Buy an ipod.
If people can not exchange information in a reasonable manor here on audiogon the whole genre will die that much faster. Maybe that is the goal if you are a deadbeat troll.
The good news, I think, is that people can see through the BS. But who knows.
Off to live life, this is just a hobby.
Dear Pani: +++++ " we seem to use the word "neutral" far too liberally... " +++++
I think that thr problem is because as with almost any other subject in audio almost all us audiophiles and AHEE members have no refrence/standards have no " common bias " and that's why " neutral " is so diferent on many of us about its grade.
With out that " common bias " it has no sense to speak about something " neutral " when two opinions comes from different " sources ", example: one from a SS based system and the other from a tube based system.
Which could be a neutral reference a neutral standard?, well certainly live music but even here live acoustical music has its own " natural colorations " but these " natural colorations " for me is my neutral standard because I don't know any other reference that can compare against it for that " natural color, " natural agresiveness " so low low distortions, so endless dynamics with the wider frequency range we can attain and with so that " natural power "/precense only live music has.
I think that we can considerer it as a very good alternative as a " common bias " /Refernce for " neutrality " and from here try to make a gradation of neutrality on what we are listening through our each one system.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Dear Syntax: +++++ " No TW Turntable is neutral sounding. Based on some design flaws a lot of internal influences are reflected into the tracking process of any cartridge used. " +++++
I think that not only TW but no single TT out there. So IMHO we have not to blame TW for that because there is no single perfect TT out there, all them have its own trade-offs and each one of us will choose the trade-offs that fulfil better our each one targets.
+++++ " But when the mediocre is pushed to something outstanding then this is a slap into the face of all those who do something better. " +++++
which are the standards characteristics for mediocrity and which the standards for excellence? whom certified those standards? you?
+++++ " But when you don't want to tweak your Turntable all day long to get the best out of it, avoid Raven ... " ++++
this statement has no sense to me coming from you a " proudly " owner of a way faulty MS RX TT design that if for you the Raven is a mediocre one for me the MS RX series is not even at mediocrity level but way down/lower steps ( I own that MS TT. ).
The MS RX series you own is a TT that you can't listening with out full tweak all over the TT and even after the tweaks is still a poor performer: the plater TT rings as a bell and is the worst one I know out there, the MS TT has no damping support anywhere not even at its footers everything alter its performance and cartridge performance, the MS is so " stupid " design that the designers choosed to put the four arms boards exactly a top the four non damped footers ( this design characteristic: " has no name ". ) where every single resonance/vibration coming from everywhere is transmited to the tonearm/cartridge every time, the control motor and the parts used in the circuit are made as if was designed for a " children toy " and not for a professional TT and I can go on and on of that poor poor MS RX design you own.
IMHO if this poor MS RX design is your reference IMHO you can't argue or make any single critic against not only the Raven but against any other TT: IMHO MS RX is the worst TT design ever. So what are you talking about with your complaints on the Raven?
Regards and enjoy the music,
There are many happy TW ACUSTIC owners out there
Yes. The world is good. I am whining. Don't forget, also thousands of happy Linn LP12 owners, thousands of Rega Turntable owners, hundreds out there who think that Garrard/Thorens/Dual/Bang & Olufsen is the next best after sliced bread. I am not up to date with Mexican/Bolivian or Afrikan Designs, maybe there are one or two happy owners, too...you find happy owners of everything everywhere. Also for Brinkmann of course :-)
Hey I loved Rega when I was a kid. Sounded great and I could afford it. I compared an AR turntable to an old technics direct drive as a kid. That was one of the system them brought me into this hobby. Then I went to Sound By singer of 33 street (I think that is where it was back then) and heard the Linn sound wonderful compared to what else was out there. It is all relative.
B&O are still IMO beautiful designs. Back in the 80s where modern styling was in.
Syntax, do you have a problem with a Mexicans or Afrikans? Making me wonder. Are you stereotyping?
Another one of these threads, so boring yawn ...
I find funny when I read from some of you suggesting these forums are free to communicate your thought's, REALLY?
I don't see it that way, numerous individuals come across as close minded taking it personally, to the point of such being a personal insult and dare you disagree with me.
Come on lighten up, it's only friggen equipment.
not everyone disagrees with Syntax fully, I'm a former owner of numerous TW products all the way up to owning their $40k + flagship BK table and 10.5 arm.
While owning I found listening to music as a whole just didn't seem right, one specific area being timing and rhythm "SPEED ACCURACY" I made these comments on numerous occasion to others only to be dismissed and to date still are by others "mainly TW owners" saying such can't be heard.
Now that's laughable :-) I find something wrong that a company selling a table in this price range and their product can't hold an accurate speed.
Is it that hard to do? Micro Seiki can!
I even commented to Thomas owner of TW my concerns when I owned my BK and when it went from Charge - Battery that I could clearly hear a difference sonically. Reply back from Thomas was .... you can't hear any difference. My reply back was kindly enlighten me why you would design a controller that is battery operated then if there are no sonic gains. Never received a reply back.
It wasn't just me who has heard this, I had others over 20+ individuals intrigued wanting to hear these tables.
I don't have a axe to grind and like to learn.
I was having a discussion with Albert Porter in what I was hearing and his polite response was try this and see if your SPEED ACCURACY is correct. I told him I used this and that strobe for speed set-up, he replied saying they aren't nearly as accurate.
I bought one off these SutherLand TimeLine pces and quickly found
These tables can not hold a accurate speed!
I still owned my AC3 at this time along with my Black Knight table, I tried my AC3 with 1 motor, 2 motors and 3 as designed along with the BK motor and controller found using the SutherLand no matter what I did non of these tables are able to offer speed accuracy.
I'm sorry but to me if you own a table and it can't hold an accurate speed it's flawed, no matter what else you do latter really doesn't matter because the speed needs to be accurate.
My 2cents worth.
Syntax does take very good photographs, does post very funny audio cartoons and gave me some great advice about Vibraplane isolation under amplifiers.
Now, back to Brinkmann and TW Acustic. I'm going to the NYC Audio Show this weekend. Last year both Brinkmann and TW were showing turntables. I thought each sounded pretty good under the conditions at the Waldorf. Both rooms also played lots of great music on LP and were always crowded. I hope to check out both rooms again this year.
No, I am not, but my ability to analyze something is pretty good
I believe he's in the business
No, I am not. I am a regular customer
...a personal axe to grind against TW
No, absolutely not. It is only about the ability about a Product. Some out there are ok, some are nice, some are black....
he is rude as well
Normally I am a very well educated young man with excellent manners what other told me. But when you have an example, please show it.
Syntax please suck wind JERK!!!
I am sorry that my logic answer to yours which showed more than the usual 2 words from you creates such a reaction. When I do suicide then it is based on your mean comment :-)
I have checked my TW BN with the latest battery PS playing a test tone on my spectrum analyzer. It was rock solid with no oscillation. I did this while on battery. I did not check while charging so I can't comment.
This is all done using an A to D converter into my computer. You can see everything spot on. The weakest link for me is the fact that a belt will always have some limitation on speed accuracy due to wear over time.
Speed accuracy is always going to be an issue with TW (not speed stability though, that's a different story). Yes,I also find that I could never get TW to be exactly at 33.33333333 whatever resolution Sutherland Timeline will give with me eyeballing it with a piece of graph paper.
The speed is always either a touch too fast or too slow.
I could get my Microseiki SX-777 Air dead on,sure. But exactly what does that mean? If TW can only do 33.338 or 33.33000 or whatever speed instead of 33.33333333...
Can anybody actually tell the difference? Pitch wise, it is not like it is going to be even closed to change A420 into A421 or A419.
Before invention of Sutherland Timeline, you do think that people have been listening to 33.3333333333..... I highly doubt it. Obviously people who were able to enjoy listening to turntable before Sutherland must have serious hearing defect and really know nothing about speed, right? Kab strobe does not even come close when compare to Sutherland Timeline. Strobe on my Micro Seiki SX-777 Air also is not dead on 33.3333333.. when compared to Sutherland.
I have no doubt that Dev hears something that he does not like about TW and that is perfectly fine since there is no such thing as univesally loved or perfect audio equipment. In his previous posts, I always find his comment very fair. However, some other people, I also learn to ignore as well.
PS has anybody ever tried Sutherland Timeline on recording cutting machine? I wonder if those machines will even past the test? Or whatever stamper making machine or whatnots?
Suteetat, I quite agree with you that the differences in absolute speed you posit are trivial and probably not at all audible to anyone but a super golden ear, of which there are very few. The real issue is speed stability, the ability of the turntable to maintain a constant speed over very small intervals of time (not "average" speed stability). If one were to graph time vs speed, where speed is continuously recorded, one would like to see a flat line, in other words. This is where some turntables fail and where some drive systems perform better than others. Even the Sutherland Timeline is not a perfect instrument for detecting such a high standard of speed stability, but if that red dot is moving in an irregular fashion across the wall, e.g., the red dot is displaced from its starting point by variable distances from one rotation to the next (good luck trying to measure that on a flat wall), then the turntable is probably not speed stable by this high standard. If the red dot creeps "regularly", I don't think that is so terrible, assuming the pitch is perceived to be correct; it indicates the type of slightly off-speed but stable operation you describe. My opinion, anyway.
Dear Dev: The Suteetat post is clear about and as Lewm point out the speed stability has to be in the short time periods during playback.
Now, Dgdad TW works fine on that speed subject and I know that with other owners too. You have a problem there and maybe your unit is faulty for what ever reasons and maybe not a good example to put under scrutiny all TW TTs.
In the other side: which is the TW deviation on the short time?, it is clear that your unit is not achieving 33.3333 rpm but at which speed is running with stability?: 33.34 or 33.29 or 33.4 rpm.
Other subject is that if that out of accuracy speed is mantained or is fluctuating one.
Certainly you are not satisfied with TW and I don't know what you are hearing trough it and I can't know if what you are hearing is because that speed deviaiton or a normal TT trade-offs inside the TW design, because no audio item is perfect.
No, I'm not saying that TT speed accuracy/stability is not important because is a must to have in any TT but IMHO we can't make a fair judge because one unit of hundreds of builded units.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Ebm, wow that's uncalled for. When I wrote "boring yawn" I was referring to the bickering and negative remarks towards individuals.
I don't know everything and have never tried to come across in such a mannerism, only trying to convey and share my own experiences be it good or bad on product that I have actually owned, most posting on this thread can't say such.
I'm open minded and always learning, are you? because reading your last 3 post clearly not constructive and just demonstrates sarcasm.
With such snide remarks clearly demonstrates .... when I owned TW product all was good with your responses and other TW owners to me, is it because I now mention flaws with the product line that you are taking such personal.
TW has numerous faults and that's why I got rid of my tables because I couldn't correct such, it wasn't just because not being able to produce ACCURATE SPEED.
I even spent out of pocket money and sent my controller back to Thomas.
I don't agree that one has to have Golden Ears to hear or can't be heard, that's only a part of it because such can be felt while listening.
If you can't hear or feel the differences of such well what can I say, that's your opinion but mine and numerous others differs.
In the end as long as you are enjoying what ever it may be that's all that matters.
Dev, I and Suteetat were referring to the audible difference, if any, between 33.3333 (I don't recall how many decimal places Suteetat proposed) and 33.3334, or the like. The software itself (the recording and mastering process) is not accurate to that level. Whether one can hear such a speed difference, if the speed is constant over time, is open to debate. I happen to think even you would not hear it, but perhaps you would. However, the main point of my response to Suteetat was to say that it is not so much super accurate 33 and one-third rpm as it is speed constancy over even small time intervals, i.e., not "average" speed, that is of prime importance in assessing a turntable. And that is only my opinion, not necessarily gospel.
Suteetat, great post. On point.
PS has anybody ever tried Sutherland Timeline on recording cutting machine? I wonder if those machines will even past the test? Or whatever stamper making machine or whatnots?
Wouldn't it be naïve think that the music on vinyl has not been altered or even tweaked during the whole process of capturing and mixing the recording and making the record?
Not to say all vinyl has that flaw, but you have to think that a lot if not most vinyl is affected to some degree that way.
Isn't the making of a record like making sausage? You might be better off not knowing goes in to it.