Best 845 tube out there?

Tcscata, I'll be looking for it.

Here's the review I promised earlier.

On 1/20/14 I received WE845 tubes from Grant Fidelity to use in my Mastersound Reference 845. My birthday was a couple of days later so I was able to convince my wife to allow me to splurge and purchase the quad of WE845 tubes. However I was a tad concerned because Western Electric never made an 845 tube and I wasn’t about to drop-in a quad of possibly “pseudo 845 tubes” which might possibly damage my $12.5K, 135lb, world-class, Mastersound Reference 845 SET amp! So I got in touch with Rachel at Grant Fidelity. She was quite pleasant and took the time to answer all my questions. I asked Rachel how Grant Fidelity could be selling replicas of a Western Electric 845 tube that never existed. She explained these WE845 tubes were voiced to sound like the Western Electric 284A tube, but were built to RCA 845 specifications. Doing that made them a direct drop-in replacement tube for any amp that uses 845 tubes. Feeling reassured these WE845 tubes were safe to use in my amp I ordered a quad of them. .

When the tubes arrived I immediately replaced my 845-B tubes with the WE845 tubes. Then I turned on my audio system and allowed the WE845 tubes to start breaking-in by playing background music. In the meantime I sat at my laptop two rooms away in the dining room surfing the internet and managing SETriodes, my online audio forum. The first CD I put on played louder than I expected it to, so I got up to turn the volume down. I usually keep the amp’s volume set at the 10 o’clock position when I’m playing background music. So imagine my surprise when I discovered the volume was still set in the 10 o’clock position! These WE845 tubes have some serious grunt to them and that was a very pleasant surprise to discover. In addition to playing louder, the dynamics seemed greater than they had been before. This was just the first day with less than one hour on these tubes and I’m already noticing a couple of nice improvements, but by the end of the first day it wasn’t all good news. The treble was noticeably bright and that issue was further exasperated by a midrange presentation wasn’t as warm, full-bodied or emotionally engaging as it had been with the 845-B tubes I had previously been using. Still it was only the first day. So I wasn’t about to judge the performance of these tubes after only 6 hours of usage, Especially since Rachel said to give them about 100 hours to completely beak-in before judging them sonically..

I’m not going to bore everyone with a description of the slow day-by-day of the slight sonic improvements I noticed as the background music played Instead I’m going to jump ahead a full 5 days. I had allowed music to play for anywhere from 8 to 12 hours every day since I received the tubes. By the time the fifth day arrived I had 50+ hours on these tubes. I was trying my best to follow Rachel’s advice and allow these WE845 tubes 100 hours to completely break-in. But I just couldn’t do it. As much as I tried to, I just couldn’t do it. As the days passed my attention was constantly being seduced by the most beautiful music I had ever heard in my home. Every moment that passed it was becoming increasingly more and more difficult for me not to surrender to this sweet seduction. I wanted to, no, I had to go to the audio room, sit in the sweet spot, shut my eyes and allow the music to immerse me in the beautiful sounds that were continually beckoning me to leave my laptop like sirens calling out to sailors on the high seas. On the sixth day I finally gave in. I decided to go listen to what these WE845 tubes could really do.

For this review I played a lot of music covering different genres from smooth jazz and classical to progressive rock and folk. I’m not going to cover listening to the different CDs separately. Rather I’ll provide a synopsis of what I heard over a six week period of time. I remember the very first time I decided to listen to these WE845 tubes critically. I sat in the sweet spot on my couch, hit play on the remote and closed my eyes. To say I wasn’t prepared for what I was about to hear would be a gross understatement. As the music emanated from the deep, black of silence, I heard the effortless, re-creation of a palpable, wide, deep soundstage that ran from about 3 to 4 feet in front of my speakers to the further back than the wall behind them. This soundstage was so wide it went about 4 to 5 feet to the sides of both speakers in my audio room. In fact, the right side of my right speaker is where the outside wall of my house is located. The soundstage was now so wide, at times it sounded as if I’d hear sounds emanate from beyond this wall! I heard layers upon layers of well-defined information with spatial clues that provided a foundation for Instruments and singers to unmistakably appear in a reach-out-and-touch-them way. It was the palpability of this wide, deep, 3-D soundstage plus the spot-on imaging that consistently put musicians in the right spots. This is the kind of holographic imaging and precision sound-staging I’ve been searching for as an audiophile & music lover since the very beginning.

Added to that was an incredible truth of timbre, beautiful tone & harmonics. Their lightning fast transients and explosive dynamics, their clarity, transparency and wonderful inner-detail, and that makes these WE845 tubes the true contender for being King of the 845 tubes. Oh and I have to also comment on their outstanding decay of notes, that went on and on until at least there was nothing left but the blackness of silence. The more music I played the more I realized these WE845 tubes have a way of making the music come alive in a way I’ve never heard any other 845 tube do before them. No matter what instrument played or which singer sang the WE845’s pitch, harmonics, timbre and tone was spot-on! I remember when a sax would play I’d think --This is what a live saxophone really sounds like-- but I thought that same exact thing when a piano, guitar, cello or any other instrument played. I kept thinking THAT’S how a piano, guitar, cello etc..really sounds! I’m not going to lie. I love 845 tubes they’re my favorite triode tube, but in my 13+ years of using an 845-based SET amp I never heard any 845 tube display this level of musical truth and emotional engagement..

These WE845 tubes have the best treble extension and sonic qualities of any 845 tube I’ve ever heard -- for a short period of time I even had a quad of NOS, RCA 845s in my amp and to the best of my recollection these WE845 are their equal if not even better-- The highs are wonderfully extended, always sounding sweet and crystal clear. Yet they never came across as being bright or etched in anyway. In my notes I wrote --This is precisely the type of treble sound I want in my system. Come down into that all too critical midrange spectrum and you’ll hear that midrange magic that triode tubes are so famous for. Except in the case of these WE845s the midrange sounds like the beautiful midrange of Western Electric 300B’s, than 845s! The mids are nicely detailed, warm and full bodied, smooth, liquid and so darn emotionally engaging,--even now I cannot get away from how musically engaging these WE845 tubes are-- I found myself unable to listen to just a favorite track on a recording. I HAD to listen to the entire CD and I was eagerly looking for another CD to play as soon as it was done! This is some of the very best midrange I’d ever heard from any amp, tubed, hybrid or solid-state. They also posses the best bass I ever heard from any triode tube. It was deep, powerful, taunt, well delineated and tonally stunning to listen to.

Conclusion

These WE845 tubes are truly exceptional in every way! They have the capability to convince you you're actually listening to live, unamplified acoustic instruments and singers rather than a reproduction of them. If your audio system is up to the task and doesn't hold these WE845 tubes back, they'll conjure up an astonishing, almost magical sense of live music from virtually every recording you'll play. I'm not claiming they'll make a poorly recorded CD sound like a well-recorded one, but what they will do is make it sound better than it ever did before. I'm also not claiming they'll make a studio session sound like a live performance. If it's a studio recording they'll make you believe you were in the studio while the music was being recorded and with a live recording these WE845s will transport you to venue where the live recording was made. I believe the best way to judge an audio product is how easily it makes you forget you're listening to a reproduction of music rather than to the music itself. With the WE845 tubes that was very easy to do every time. After 8+ weeks of critical listening I'm still impressed every time I play my system. I know these WE845 tubes aren't perfect, but I'm at a loss to fault them. Over the entire frequency range and with every genre of music I played. There wasn't one aspect of the sound where these WE845 tubes exhibited less than state-of-the-art realism. Their tone color, inner-detail, excellent macrodynamics & microdynamics, wonderful treble extension, warm, full-bodied midrange, bottom-end extension and bass pitch definition, —and the list goes on and on, were all impeccable. In the end perhaps the best thing I can say is this –I had a $4000, incredibly musical sounding, prototype tube preamp installed in my system to evaluate and as good as it was and it was very good—it didn't make half the level of sonic improvement in my system as adding these WE845 tubes did! All hail the new King of triodes.

My Listening Environment

My dedicated audio room measures 15 ft 7 in L by 12 ft 7 in W. The speakers are located on the long wall and they’re separated a little over 8 ft. The ceiling is 8 ft H directly behind where the speakers are located and gently rises to 10 ft directly behind the listening position. The floor is covered with wall to wall carpeting and I have bamboo wallpaper on all the walls. Anyone who wishes to see my listening room or my audio gear can do so at this link: http://tinyurl.com/3sxnnus


Review Equipment

Mastersound Reference 845 Integrated Amplifier
GoldeNote Stibbert V.5 CD player (Used as a Transport)
Audio-gd Reference 7.1 DAC
Sachiko Double-Back-Loaded Horns Loudspeaker
Dayton PS220-8 Drivers With Rispoli Cone Treatment Applied (Run Full-range)
Fostex T900a Tweeters (Crossed in at 8KHz)
Grover Huffman SRC –IIx Interconnects.
Rispoli Loudspeaker Wires
Rispoli Reference 1 Digital Wire.
Stealth Audio M-21 Super Power Cords

Tcscata your review is spot on. I hear the exact things that you do. These are much better than the original RCA tubes.

I purchased a matching pair of ELROG 845 tubes and after approx. 120 hrs, one has completely failed (the glass is discoloured) and other tube has a vast amount of hum. I sent an e-mail to Klaus at ELROG of what occurred but I've yet to receive a response. I highly recommend you stay away from these tubes. I loved them at first but after a short while they started to deteriorate. At a $1000.00 US a pair, it was an expensive experiment. I'm now back to using my PSVANE 845 TII which are working fine.

Psvane is doing an excellent job at manufacturing and MARKETING their “premium” brand of tubes. Psvane, IMHO, has target the North American market due to our thirst for high quality new production tubes and especially our willingness to pay a premium for said tubes.

So why didn’t Psvane design and market a replica RCA or United 845? Because the Western Electric name has more of a premium “marketability” than either RCA or United. Western Electric never made a true 845 spec’d tube and the WE tube (WE284A) that the Psvane WE845 is supposed to be replicated from are not even close in construction. The WE284A was a metal plate whereas the Psvane WE845 has a graphite plate.

Also, if you take a close look at the Psvane WE845, there is evidence that the vacuum evacuation is performed from the top, whereas both the RCA845 and WE285A are evacuated from the bottom, so the manufacturing techniques are not even duplicated. How can these tubes be called Western Electric “Replicas”????

How many 845 tube variants does Psvane make now? Four, Five, Six?? As you go up the line, you get fancy packaging, a shinier base, and a more robust glass envelope. All marketing BS to appeal to the North American market.

I have had a (borrowed pair) of Psvane WE845 tubes in my system for 3-weeks. They are good sounding tubes, but IMHO are certainly not up to the same standard as vintage RCA, United, and the limited production run of high dissipation Super TnT metal plates. Heck, current production Cetrons will give them a run for the money.

If you want as good sound 845 tube from China, look for the lower price T-series Psvane tubes and by-pass the marketing BS and fancy boxes.

I am glad the current users of the Psvane WE845 tube are reporting excellent results, but based on my listening experience with 845 tubes, I’ll pass on the Psvane WE845 marketing clone, especially at $720/pair for a Chinese manufactured tube.

Brf,
This is a good example of individual impression variance. I've heard the Psvane W.E. Replica 845 in direct comparison to the RCA Nos 845 in Jwm's Absolare PSET amamplifier. The Psvane, marketing hype or not withstanding, was clearly superior in sound across the board. I can accept that different amplifiers can yield various outcomes. What I heard is markedly different from your account.
Charles,

Charles1dad, I agree that everyone has their own individual listening bias and there is no universal best, only a best for you. I would be very interested in Jwm’s long term listening impressions. I found the Psvane WE845 to be very dynamic with a forward presentation. Initial impression was a bit of a “wow” but the “wow” factor was supplanted by the masking of inner detail and micro dynamics. The WE845 had a too much of an” in your face” with an aggressive presentation that drew attention to itself as oppose to the music.

It was just 5-years ago when a truly evolutionary metal plate 845 tube from China only cost $375/pr. How things have changed. I’ll stick with my 1959 United 845W JAN-CUE with the getter capsule and my 1941 RCA 845.

BTW, I use the Psvane TII series 12ax7, 12au7 and CV181 tube in my preamp with excellent results.

Since 2006 on I have experimented with all Super TNT (Shuguang) 845 models; B, and all metal: M (then C), True M 100w dissipation and W premium Nobleman model.

845M is the best to my ears, now they are about 3500 hours and still strong. All the rest where fine but all failed at 30 hours or 500 hours except 845B model that I now consider are the true standard for quality and duration. But not the best sounding.

For my 211 mono amps, now I'm thinking on the WE211 to replace my broken Elrogs that costed last may '13, 2100 euros here in Europe.

Tkanks for the review Tcscata.

Elrog ER-211 sound so good, lots of inner detail and subtle sounds, big elegant and beautiful. I have never experimented such a quality form a chinese tube yet. But they fail too soon and no guarranty. Elrogs betters old General Electrinc and Taylor vt4c by far in my opinion. Is a pitty.

Elrog failures and not speciffic cases.

Companys like Kondo, Absolare and Voxativ presented their products at the Munich Audio Fest 2012 with these super expensive new tubes, they didn't next year.

Air Tight after presenting Elrogs last year at Munich they still don't trust them to sell their ATM-211 with Elrog's.

Valvulator,
You're right, Absolare used the Elrog 845 for a while but have moved on from that tube. It seems to have developed a reputation for poor reliability despite its high price.
Brf,I'll let Jwm speak for himself but he has exceptional nuance, inner detail, resolution and wonderful organic sound with the W.E. replica tubes. They seem better as time passes.

Tcsanta Thank you for your thoughts on the WE 845.
My birthday is on the horizen so I just might treat myself.
Or will it be the Sophia 845 MK3 that I may get to hear in my system.
Enjoy

The WE845 is the best tube I heard in my system. It is clear, organic, warm, fast and dynamic. I hear no negatives with this tube. It is worth every penny considering original RCA's go for 800-1200 a pop. I would not give these up for and old RCA period. This tube will not hide flaws in your components. If bright and foward I would recommend checking your front end. I would love to hear the Elrod, but not in its state right now too unreliable. I wish EML or Takasuki made this tube.

Given the quality and sucess of their 300b beauties I'm sure EML or Takatsuki could develop a superb 845 as I well.
Charles,

Charles1dad Yes you would assume that EML and Takatsuki could develp a top notch 845.
However from what I have read Sophia Electric has an outstanding 300B and yet I cant find anything pro or con on their 845 MK3
Regards

I own a set of Audion Black Shadow 845 monos. Ventured away from the very solid Shuguang 845B and bought a pair of KR's. I even posted how wonderful they sounded on this thread. Yeah past tense. They both failed after less the six months. Luckily the seller, Hugh of Angel City Audio, and the distributor, Tube Depot, stood behind them and gave me a full refund.
Have been listening to the Bs again and they sound pretty darn good.
My question is, who is going to stand behind the Psvane WE845's for more than 90 days if I decide to once again try to improve on the very affordable and uber dependable Shuguang B's?

KR tubes are an enigma, they have a reputation for good sound yet have been plagued with reliability woes.

So has anyone owned the Psvane WE 845's for more than six months?

Jwm has used his since 09/2013. More than enough time to form a long term impression.

We'll I have received a pair of WE211 yesterday, 11 hours use now. I've been told by german distributor that Psvane is offering 12 month guarranty for the Extreme Series so I bought them quick ..

Valvulator,
How does the WE211 sound compared to your Elgrods? I know you haven't had them for long, but what's the initial impression??

Hi Mikewen,
First impression is visual, we211 is a true replica so it doesn't have a bigger or thicker glass. It's visually very similar to GE. So this is dissaponting when compared to the Elrog bigger, modern and high quality internal structure and really black graphite.

From the point of view of sound is too early to compare, 30 hours running now. Still too much HIFI sound no coherence. But yes they are very quiet. Despite what may seem to what I say i have a good first impression .. I'll let you know !

.

I would like to offer a testimony on my experience with the KR845 tube.

I purchased two sets of KR845's for my Audion Elite tube amp back in January of 2011. I keep a log for my tube hours and cartridge hours.

It is april of 2014 that i write this, so that means i've personally owned them for 3 years.

I checked my log book and i have 627 hours of listening on my first set of KR845's.

So, that is 3 years and 627 hrs that i have not had an issue.

Note FWIW these KR845's have brass bottoms. I have seen aluminimum colored and copper bottom versions. I have not owned those. I'm not sure what production run the brass bottom version is or if that has any relevance.

I have not heard the WE845. I own the 845B and C.

The C's burn brightest and have alot of shove. The B's are more beguiling. The KR845 is the most neutral of them all. Has more resolution than either and lots of shove. It does not give a vintage tube sound but sounds very modern and sophisticated. It has brilliant timbre and provides a great base point to dial in the rest of your system around, especially if you are committed to use a 845. The A and C are so different in this regard that no cable or cartridge change could ever give you the kind of headway the KR gives you just by having it in your tube amp.

So, while there are some bad experiences out there with KR845 in terms of reliability there are some very positive ones out there too. My experience with them has been extremely positive, sonically and in terms of reliability. The KR845 in my system and in my elite are a essential ingredient in the level of playback i have achieved. I could not go without them.

I recommend asking your amp manufacturer if the specs for the KR845 that you intend to purchase are electrically compatible first, before you buy them.

.

Shuguang have the new 211T inside by the pics I see very similar to Psvane T or Mark II.

Opinions or experiences??????
The price is very competitive, better than Psvane T or Mark II.

Shuguang 211-T features introduced by Shuguang Company.

. the product is completely original reference RCA211 design
. High permeability unleaded large glass shell design, both to accelerate the cooling effect inside the tube, so that the entire tube and more aesthetic
. imported vacuum melting high purity high density graphite material, the anode dissipation power than similar products to enhance 20% , fine processing technology, reflects the extraordinary value
. U.S. imports of high-thorium tungsten cathode, both to ensure a large dynamic distortion, and other manufacturers overcome the weaknesses easily broken filament.
. platinum gate, the gate is not without any radiation phenomena in higher operating temperatures
. resulting in positive tolerance design conductive rod and anode, no work flashover or die skew the transport situation
. extension tube gold pin design, so tightly hugged her and header, no signal is missing
. maintain and exceed the original tube sound characteristics
Soothing series pin and socket are all genuine gold plated (24K), withstand Salt experimental test, ten years do not fade do not fade, good conductive properties.
. fully maintain and exceed the original tube sound characteristics
. precision pairing, no parameter drift

KR 845 sounded indeed outstanding so far in my system. The KR were installed on my Nagra VPA (year 2010) and I cannot fault the “sound” in my system but absolutely nothing else. I have just posted couple of days ago in the following forum:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1238460557&read&keyw&zzkr+audio

Good luck to whoever thinking of buying KR845 because I really think you need plenty of luck and dollars.

FYI,

KR US Distributor had decided not to carry the big KR tubes such as 845 & 211.

We have had quite a few 845 pairs that failed after a few months so we also decided not to mess with them.

Nhocti,
That is very wise of you and good business ethic. I could have sold all my KR845 (including the 2 new ones) to recover much more than the 50% refund but that would be transferring those questionable KR845 to someone else.

Curious to hear from Psvane WE 845 owners how their tubes are holding up now that they have some usage?
Thanks

Keng,

Thanks.
We actually refunded 100% less shipping to our customer.
On the other hand, we have yet to receive our money in full from the distributor but that is our problem. :)

On another note, we are waiting to receive some new Shuguang 845C-1 and our understanding is they are rated at 100W so we are excited.

Are there any updates regarding the performance of the Psvane WE845 from people who use them? Thinking of purchasing them.

I need to correct an earlier post where I recommended the 845T tubes. I've been using various 845 types for at least 12 years and these are the only ones that ever failed -- two of them. Silver lining is that I was "forced" to use my back-up metal plate 845C (which I once said sounded "metallic") and find I like them so much better than the 845T types that I have put off replacing them. Sometimes things do work out :-)

I took the plunge about 3 months ago and purchased a pair of WE845
replica's from Grant Fidelity.
Excellent tube. Much better then the Shuguang 845B tubes I had been useing
Read Tcscata's 3/13/14 review which is spot on.
Enjoy

Thanks, Goldeneraguy.

If you don't mind to share, what amp and speakers do you use?

Findog , I have deHavilland 845G mono amps powering Horning Aristotles Ultimate hybrid horns
Of course your source and pre are extremely important as well as wires room,power, anti vibration tweeks and on and on and on

Goldeneraguy, I have Melody m845 mono amps and Meadowlark Shearwater HotRod speakers.

i have about 100 hrs on my 2 matched pairs of Psvane WE 845s. they are getting better every day. much better soundstage then the Shuguangs they replaced.better vocal realism…better PRAT…better piano reality.i had one of the designers of the amps i have..Chalice Audio 'Grail' SET monoblocks over saturady night and he could not believe how great the tubes sounded…i will be replacing my 300bs in the next month and have not decided whether to go with the Psvane WE s or the Elrogs..is there synergy among tubes..?..

Calloway with the cost of your chalice I'm surprised you wouldn't spring for the Elrog 845 tubes. I have both we845 and Elrog and Elrog blows away the WE's

Jwm..i am a little concerned with the reliability of the Elrods as ...apparently..a few of the dealers that used them in their amps last year are no longer using them..i still have not made up my mind as of yet. i will be demoing some pcs for a few weeks and do not want to introduce 2 variables at the same time so i will wait until i finish with the pcs to make my decision.i am superbly happy with my system and really do not need to make it better but you know how it goes..!!!

Calloway,great system.
I have been told of a potential problem with the longevity of the Elrog 845.
I am now told that any problem that may have occured has been corrected.
Which power cords will you be demoing.

Goldeneraguy…the High Fidelity CT-1 pc..i have demo'd the Ct-1UR which is superb but am interested in hearing how Rick's newest pc sounds in my system.Thanks for the info on the Elrogs…that makes sense and i do remember reading that somewhere...

Please keep us posted on your thoughts of the CT-1UR
Although your cables far exceed my budget I enjoy hearing of what is possible

Goldeneraguy..they will be the Ct-1 powercords..I will get back with my thoughts

Lookong forward to it

goldeneraguy..i will post my findings on the High Fidelity cable part of the cable forum..not here...

Goldeneraguy I have Sophia 845 amps, the ultimate top of the line ones, with their brand of tubes. Their tubes have reliability problems and are merely rebranded TJ. When you try to get a refund warranty Richard just blames you and offers you a new one at half the price. That is still more then a shuguang Metal plate and they do not sound as good.
Also I have had five power transformer failures they combine a filament transformer in the power transformer and filament winding keeps failing. Finally modded the unit and put in separate power and filament transformers by Hammond and have not since had a problem.

Goldeneraguy I have Sophia 845 amps, the ultimate top of the line ones, with their brand of tubes. Their tubes have reliability problems and are merely rebranded TJ. When you try to get a refund warranty Richard just blames you and offers you a new one at half the price. That is still more then a shuguang Metal plate and they do not sound as good.
Also I have had five power transformer failures they combine a filament transformer in the power transformer and filament winding keeps failing. Finally modded the unit and put in separate power and filament transformers by Hammond and have not since had a problem.
I would have gotten rid of p.m. but I do love how they sound. They do rock and do everything perfectly.

Sorry to hear about your problem with Sophia.You would think that at the very least tubes that are chosen to be used by the mfg. of the amp would not sound bad.
in the past i purchased 845B tubes from Sophia and had no problems.
But as you know anything can happen in this hobby.

Hello all.

i am listening to a Unison Absolute 845. At the Moment i am listening with WE 845 and it sounds great. Best sound i listened to.
Fantastic tubes. I am planing to buy a Quad of KR 845 and i wonder if anyone here knows if they work with the Unison, since there heating filament is only 1 A? Did anyone compared those 2 tubes?
I was listening to the Elorogs as well, but there fabrication level is not really nice for 1400Euros Pair.

Any one compared Psvane WE845 vs. Shugang WE845 replicas?
I am interested in getting Psanve WE845 for my Cary 805 AE amps based on the overwhelming enthusiasm of some of users here.  Then, checked eBay and found Psvane WE845 at ~850/pair and Shugang WE845 only ~$450. I just want to know whether there is any significant sonic difference between them?