Affordable Processor with Fabulous 2 Channel ?

Where does Krell S1200 or McIntosh C45 stand in the comparison for both Stereo & Surround (HT) sound?

Clark calls regular asynchronous USB interfaces ’non optimal’ because the ground noise that is inevitable with computer sources pollutes the clock and the DAC in the receiver.

Except that it is completely preventable with standard isolation techniques, available as off-the-shelf chips or custom designed.

Honestly in 2018 this should not even be an issue anymore, though it is, rarely.

Don’t know. I’ve never listened to the D2 but I have listened to the higher end Lumin A1 & S1 but these cost way more than the D2. The D2 is an entry level model from Lumin. The A1 & S1 are very very good. Can’t comment on the D2 though. You can try out the D2 in your setup and buy with a 30 day return policy so that you can return it if you don’t need it.

However, the Lumin D2 supports DSD & MQA and I don’t think the DAC in the Classe Sigma SSP supports DSD & MQA. So it depends on your needs whether you need DSD files & MQA decoding to stream Tidal Master (hi-rez) etc. Try both by connecting direct to your Sigma SSP via USB and the Lumin D2 going XLR analog out to your Sigma SSP and set the Sigma SSP in digital bypass mode. And you decide which one sounds better more musical etc etc.

I guess that what I’m trying to ask is if the Lumin will give me any better quality as compared to connecting my laptop to the Sigma with the USB connection?

Don’t have the Lumin yet but considering the D2

@bwguy 

I
Sorry my bad I didn't see your posts earlier about the Lumin music server. 
Yes, you can connect the Lumin via XLR analog out to your Sigma SSP and set the Sigma SSP in digital bypass mode so the Classe is used as an analog stereo preamp. Lumin is pretty awesome.
Which Lumin are going to get? 

But would the Lumin music server connected via USB give any better quality than my laptop computer with the same connection?

@bwguy 

You can use a Lumin music server and run a USB from Lumin to the rear USB input on the Sigma SSP. 

@bwguy

No...trust me, just run a good quality USB cable directly to the rear USB input on the Sigma SSP. You will be amazed on how good it will sound. There’s an effortless flow of music and music sounded very natural and organic. The difference between its USB input and its other inputs are night and day. I suggest you use a very good quality USB cable in order to achieve best sound possible.

Both Classe CP 800 stereo preamp/DAC and the Sigma SSP were designed by Alan Clark, a Scotsman who was also responsible in designing other Classe products (including the SSP 800) and many great Linn products including a legendary Linn CD12 player and more recently Linn DS as well as some great legendary Mark Levinson products.

In implementing both Classe’s asynchronous USB inputs, Clark isolated the microcontroller from both the input and the audio circuit to ensure the quietest possible transfer of data and eliminate any possibility of noise induced by the source component. Both front and rear USB inputs on the Classe are asynchronous but Clark deviates from the norm in having designed and implemented their single clock substrate, which employs a high speed field-programmable gate array (FPGA) between the master clock isolators and the DACs. The FPGA accepts and buffers data from the USB microcontroller on the digital input board. He ensures that the FPGA processes data at whole multiples of its original frequency. Data are then sent to the DACs synchronously from the master audio clock of the FPGA, which is also in sync with the data pouring into the buffer from the USB microcontroller’s asynchronous transfer algorithm. At the end of this process, Clark claims, the digital information arrives at the DACs with unprecedented timing accuracy. The data are then converted to analog.

Clark calls regular asynchronous USB interfaces ’non optimal’ because the ground noise that is inevitable with computer sources pollutes the clock and the DAC in the receiver. So his solution to this has been to add an FPGA (field programmable gate array) between the USB microcontroller/receiver and the DAC, as a means of isolating both it and the audio clocks within the preamp. The USB receiver has its own clock but it’s impossible to fully isolate this because the noise levels are very high within the chip.
So in the end, the FPGA recovers only the data from the incoming signal and uses the precision clock within the CP800/Sigma SSP in order to minimise jitter.

er, I shoudl have clarified : "I now own a DAC with a very good clock which behaves about the same whether from USB or S/PDIF. It also makes Redbook sound much better than my previous DAC.

aux:
I've had a DAC which behaved much better via USB than other inputs. I now own a DAC that behaves similarly.

I think it's very much about implementation of the jitter and re-clocking interfaces as a whole. The DAC which behaved much better via USB had kind of mediocre clocks.

Best,
E

Thank thank you Caphill, you are a wealth of good information.  Would using a music server, such Lumin, give even better 2 channel quality as compared to using a USB connection from my computer?

@auxinput @bwguy

Here’s a link to one forum thread re the finding that proved the USB input on the Classe CP 800 stereo preamp/DAC is superior sounding than its other inputs and this also applies to the Sigma SSP as the USB circuit design of the Sigma SSP is lifted directly from the CP 800 and both the Sigma SSP and the CP 800 use same DAC chip sets but the CP 800 uses 2 DAC chips per channel whereas the Sigma SSP uses only 1 DAC chip per channel for its front L/R channels.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.audioaficionado.org/show...

@bwguy

I did own the SSP 800 for over 7 years until recently upgraded to the Lyngdorf MP-50 but am still using all Classe Delta series class AB amplifiers in my dedicated home theater room. IMO the Lyngdorf MP-50 is better than the SSP 800 in all areas when used for surrounds (home theater) with Room Perfect properly set up and calibrated. Hands down. Plus I wanted Dolby Atmos & DTS-X. The SSP 800 is outdated and is time to move on.

Now the Sigma SSP is little different. It’s optimized for stereo but its surround performance is still pretty good but its stereo performance for music that stands out. That's the area where the Sigma SSP shines. IMO if it’s only for surround (HT) purposes I think there are better and cheaper options out there than the Sigma SSP. IMO the Anthem AVM60 with its ARC2 outperforms the Sigma SSP for surrounds. And I think the Marantz AV8805/AV8802 are better choices than the Sigma SSP when used for surrounds and will likely outperform the Sigma SSP. The Sigma SSP is good for someone who wants to combine his stereo and multi-channel needs in one single box solution. Its stereo performance for music playbacks are phenomenal coming from an AV pre pro especially for its asking price of $5k and $6k new. The original version of the Sigma SSP nowaday can be had for around $2500 in used markets.
But if it’s for a dedicated home theater setup strictly used for surround movies I wouldn’t get the Sigma SSP. The XLR are limited only for front L/R channels with the remaining channels are only available in single-ended. It lacks room correction.

@auxinput

The USB, spdif, Toslink as well as stereo analog audio input design stages and its signal path implementation & configuration on the Classe Sigma SSP were pretty much copied and pasted directly from the Classe CP 800 stereo preamp/DAC.
If you google Classe CP 800 review and click on any reviews for the Classe CP 800 there are articles that will explain why its USB input sounded better than its other inputs. That way I don’t have to repeat what they said. There’s also a forum thread on Audioficiando I believed that confirmed the findings. I myself also found the difference in sound quality between using their USB input vs other inputs and the difference wasn’t subtle assuming you use a very good quality USB cable. The CP 800 stereo preamp/DAC is built around its USB input and is optimized for use with its USB input with the rest kinda after thought design.
The CP 800 isn’t for someone who’s looking solely for a solid analog stereo preamp. I would go with something else if I want an analog stereo preamp as there are better options out there in a similar price range as the CP 800 ($6k new retail price).

Yes, I would like to know why you think USB is better than digital COAX for PCM audio.  Obviously, USB is required for any DSD files, but I think the compromises made in the USB interface may get in the way somewhat when compared to COAX s/pdif with a good digital cable and transport.

Caphill,
You sure do know the Classé very well. I have it and absolutely love it.  
  Help me understand why the Sigma would perform better with a connection via USB compared with a HDMI connection?  Wouldn’t  these be run through the same DAC’s?

@freemand

The Classe Sigma SSP is optimized for stereo or when used as a stereo preamp and its DAC is very good especially when fed via its USB input. Its USB input by far sounded way better than its other inputs for digital music files. I will guarantee that the CD disc played back through your Oppo 103 connected to the Sigma SSP via spdif (coax digital) or HDMI sonically cannot compare to those same CD properly ripped in digital files (FLAC) and played back through your computer feeding the Classe Sigma SSP via USB. The latter by far will be superior sounding.

Do not hesitate to purchase the Classe Sigma SSP. It also performs and sounds really good when used as an analog stereo preamp in bypass mode. If you have a high end CD player or DAC and want to feed the Classe via analog and use the Classe Sigma SSP as analog stereo preamp you will have to select digital bypass mode thus bypassing DSP and other digital processings in the Sigma SSP so the analog signal will be kept in pure analog domain all the way through its analog output stage or otherwise DSP will get in the way and will degrade sound quality.

The Classe Sigma SSP is your best solution for combining your stereo and multi-channel needs in one single box at a very attractive price on a used unit.
Its surround performance for home theater is also very good. You probably won’t need the NAD M51 and just use the DAC in the Classe. The NAD M51 was great and is still good by today standard but the M51 is a bit older measured by DAC or digital audio technology and the Sigma SSP is newer and uses newer and up-to-date DSP and DAC or digital audio technology.

You can try connecting your NAD M51 DAC to the Classe Sigma SSP but first you will have to set the output of your NAD M51 to fixed and set the Classe Sigma SSP in digital bypass mode and make comparison between using the NAD M51 to the Classe via analog with the Classe set in bypass mode vs streaming digital files directly to the Classe via USB input on the Classe.
That way you will know and find out which will sound better to your ears.

I have a question since this thread has been dominated by the Classe sigma ssp.

I have been using the Oppo 103d with a NAD m51 as part of my 2 channel setup. I was going to get a Oppo 205 and use it as a source and processor, but we all know what happened there as I wont get ripped off by the price gougers at this point and time.

So after all, I am stuck with the processor route as this forum has been wonderful for a lurker like myself! I have ZERO interest in atmos and just want a high quality 5 channel surround processor as 2 channel and sound quality are utmost importance.

So, with that all said, one of the Classe ssp units seem to be the right choice.

My question is does anyone know what would be a better sounding setup. The Oppo 103d to the NAD m51 dac and then to the Pass labs amp or the Oppo 103d to the Classe ssp and then to the Pass labs amp?

I'm concerned I will degrade the 2 channel going from the Oppo 103d to Classe ssp opposed to going to the NAD m51 dac from the Oppo.

Thanks!

 

I've found myself back in this same boat recently.  My listening habits change all the time and right now, they're back at maybe 80/20 HT/records.  Earlier this year, it was 90/10 records/HT.  I used a Marantz AV7005 for several years and then decided to try an 'old' Krell HTS 7.1. It was perfect for what I needed.  Balanced outs, 5.1 analog inputs (for my Oppo Bluray player) a zone 2 for my Tascam recorder, etc.  I always ran video sources directly into the TV, so no need for HDMI inputs.  Needless to say, I donated the Marantz within a week to my father.  The Krell is substantially better on everything over the Marantz.  I don't need an EQ because I have a pretty well treated room.  The Marantz had sloppier bass, muddy highs and veiled/muffled midrange.  Anyway, now that I'm into streaming movies/shows a lot more and cut the cord on cable, I am ready to move up to Atmos/dts;X.  Otherwise I wouldn't bother upgrading.  I found the best advice which has also been mentioned in this thread - buy a 2-channel preamp with HT bypass.  My sights are on an Anthem AV60 and Rogue Audio Perseus for stereo (LPs and CDs) listening.  The X-2.5 mentioned earlier looks very temping.  I demo'd an XP-15 phono preamp and it was very impressive.

The Anthem AVM60 is a great HT processor and has exceptional ARC2 (Anthem Room Correction) and is priced at $3k new, which imo is a total bargain. And it supports and decodes those latest surround sound formats & codecs eg Dolby Atmos, DTS-X. It is excellent for HT use.

McIntosh MX121, nuff said.

SO do you think, at this level, that this is comparable to or better than the Anthem AVM 60?

+1 aux! 

Just based on reading this thread, no one has stood up for NAD's HT processors but they have for Classe. 

I have listed to a few NAD digital products over the past couple of years with mixed experiences. I use a D 3020 in the bedroom, works great there. :) 

Best,

E

The old regular classic series NAD gears have somewhat warm sound but the newer of latest Master series such as the M17/M27 amp combo have different tonal characteristics. 

I think the new NAD Master Series such as the M17 and their matching M27 amp have different sound profile than the older NAD regular classic series gears.
The NAD M17/M27 combo have very good details and resolution but probably not on the same level of details resolution and attacks as the Classe gears but the NAD M17/M27 combo will sound great for both music and movies (HT).

"While warm would be good for music, it is just not exciting enough for movies and HT."

I agree some to that but I actually prefer more neutral/analytical for music also and my NAD pre-pro/Acurus amps/Klipsch speakers combo fits the bill perfectly.

Bill

So you think the NAD is a bad choice for HT?  What is the best bet for both?

I think Eric is really saying that nobody has really come out on this thread and stated "I love my NAD processor" or "NAD processor is great because...". I have noted that NAD will tend to be on the warm side and it’s entirely a personal preference. I just went through some new amplifier changes for my home theater and have determined for myself that a warm sound just loses all the impact that HT and movies would portray. While warm would be good for music, it is just not exciting enough for movies and HT.

"I like the M17 V2 technically, but from a sound quality / music no one is rooting for them."

@erik_squires ,

Not disputing but curious, why is that?

I have been using an NAD T175HD pre/pro for close to 6 years and have been very impressed with it's musical prowess.  I am sure Anthem, Onkyo/Integra, and a few others would be a bit "better" for HT because they may be more analytical, which I prefer for HT, and more modern feature laden, but my NAD does a lot right for music.

Bill  

What about the NAD m17v2?  Where would that stack up in this bunch? I have heard that NAD as great sound for music, and now comes with Dirac Live for HT...  I don't know if this is in the same league, but I would think it would be very competitive.

Still looking, and still unpacking. :) 

Right now I am running with a Mytek Brooklyn as my DAC/preamp. It is hoooked up to the TV via optical. My source is Roku. 

I have a Parasound P7 and Oppo still boxed up. 

There's no guarantee I'll really ever go back to 5.1. It's just such a cable mess, and takes time to set up properly. 

@erik_squires  

Just wondering, which processor did you end up getting or are you still shopping around? 

The Mac MX122 two-channel performance for music playbacks isn’t on par with the Classe Sigma SSP. The Sigma SSP is better for stereo.
For surrounds or HT either the MX122 or the Sigma SSP would be fine.  
Actually, for surround movies or HT I think the MX122 will probably be a better choice than the Sigma SSP.

Mx122

 Eric,
 Look into the Simaudio Moon Stargate AV Preamp and the Halcro SSP100  I
 have listed on usaudiomart , both have outstanding 2-channel performance .
 I got the upgrade fever for Auro -3d ,and only upgraded for that reason .  

@psnyder149 

I just want to comment on the built-in phonostage (optional) in your Sigma SSP. Since you mentioned in your earlier post that you decided to add an optional built-in phonostage in your Sigma SSP for your Linn LP12 turntable. Linn LP12 is a great turntable and deserves a really good quality dedicated external phonostage pre IMO. You should get a good quality external phonostage pre for your Linn LP12 turntable. Linn makes great quality phonostage with an external PSU. Btw, what tonearm, cartridge and external PSU do you get for your Linn LP12? Are you using Linn's ? 

In regards to your comment on the Classe Sigma Amp5 class D five-channel amp, I totally agreed with you. The Sigma Amp5 is a great amp when used for HT but when used for stereo music playbacks I felt like it lacks warmth, midrange and mid-bass bloom and overall musical expressions and liquidity. It is a great amp, the sound was very resolved, fast, clean, transparent and dynamic and very suitable for HT use especially those lossless HD surround sound formats from bluray and 4K UHD discs. 

Psnyder149
Yes, I am using XLR connectors  on the mains.  My center is currently set at 7.5 DB above the mains.

Caphill,
Very long explanation for the Sigma going in.
i am using the Classé Delta 2300 for my mains and a 5300 for the center and surrounds. Sometime in early 2017, Something happened with the 5300 and it just died. No idea why. Heard a pop and it just died. So it went back to Classé for repair. It took about 2 months but got it back and life was good. Forward August 2017 and the 5300 died again. I wasn’t driving it hard, but evidently something caused it to overheat inside.
Returned to Classé again. This time they wanted to look at the Sigma to see if this could be causing something. This was right when Classé announced they were closing. As a result, both the 5300 amp and the Sigma sat until B&W figured out who and where repairs would be made. Needless to say I was not happy during this time. FRUSTRATED!  While the unit was there, I had them put the 4K board in, which caused me to lose my settings. I finally got everything back around January of this year. I never did hear if the Sigma was the cause of anything but so far so good (knock on wood).

@bwguya,
‘are you using balanced connections (XLR)  for l/r?  If so, then single ended connections (RCA) will all need to be elevated.  I’m sure many people more knowledgeable than I can predict the theoretical amount but my recollection from when I was running a 5 channel amp is that l/r was 0 and center was +6 or 7. I have found this to be the case with 2 different ProAc center speakers (cc1 and cc2) as well as 3 different ProAc l/r speakers (response 2.5, 3.0 and 5.0...  yes, at one time I owned all 5 models... )  I recommend doing a careful setup with test tones (preferably supplied from a Blu-ray test disk) and a decent dB meter.  The internal tone generator on the SSP is inadequate, although it has been improved. Differences of 1 dB between center and front channels significantly impact clarity and intelligibility of dialog.  I also found cable choices to be important.  But really obsessing over channel levels really pays off!

@bwguy 

You said earlier that your Classe Sigma SSP went back to Classe for repair lately. Just curious, what was wrong with it? Cause Sigma SSP is somewhat new product and it first came out in early 2015. It made me think that the Sigma SSP might have reliability issue?
I do not own the Sigma SSP but I do own the Classe SSP 800 still and it is 8 yrs old now, so far it only went back to Classe once for service. 

@caphill 
Yes, looking forward to it sounding even better than it already does.

@bwguy

Yes it is beautiful here in Seattle.
Good that your dealer is willing to re-calibrate it again for you. They should cause you bought it from them.

I agree with auxinput in that the Classe sound is highly resolved, detailed, transparent, fast with lots of attacks. 

aux - 

Thanks so much. I am for their modular construction and relative price (say compared to Theta) - But I've had one really poor and one good experience with NAD DAC's which has made me pretty wary. 

Best,

E

@erik_squires - I hear you are interested in NAD.  Based on my listening, NAD is a warmer and mellower sound with softer highs.  Classe Sigma/SSP will be very high resolving with lots of attack and resolution.  Depends on what you are after.  My own tastes would prefer the Classe sound.

Beautiful area in Seattle. I am located in northern Indiana.
I just contacted my dealer again. They said they can calibrate it but are out 3 weeks in scheduling. So hopefully I will have it set by the first of September!
Thanks for your helpful comments.

@bwguy 

You don't want to be messing around with a manual PEQ if you don't have tools to do it. You might want to leave it off until you can have someone who can do proper calibration for you. You could hire a pro or an acoustician to do it for you.

It's a bummer that your dealer does not carry Classe anymore due to change of ownership. One of my local dealer here in Seattle, WA does not carry Classe anymore for that same reason. 

Hi Caphill
i can not get my dealer to come out and re-calibrate it. I don’t think they carry Classé anymore since they are now part of Sound United. Very frustrating as I don’t have the tools to do this.