Placement tips for Synergistic Research HTFs

They're electromagnetic, I'm just curious about what type based on your wavelength description. And also curious how that would affect sound.

toddverrone
They’re electromagnetic, I’m just curious about what type based on your wavelength description. And also curious how that would affect sound.

Actually I didn’t exactly specify the wavelength. What I did say was that the highest frequency Franck Tchang measured with respect to the effect of his bowls was 3 GHz. One naturally assumes he measured many other frequencies, 3 GHz was just the highest. How these EM waves affect the sound has been the subject of much debate over the years. But obviously there are many unescapable producers of this EM interference therefore one has a rather big task in front of him if he wishes to uh, fix things.

From the second visit to Franck Tchang’s place by the two PhDs from 6 Moons:

"Just to throw a major curve ball, he did let on that the resonators are also electromagnetic receivers. "Their small size creates ’poles’ but because the devices are passive, it takes time to set up the associated pathways This explains the settling-in cycle during installation. Once the cycle has completed itself, electromagnetic energy in the room connects with the poles and the room is cleaned up. When a resonator is removed, the electromagnetic energy will try to reach another pole. If the original resonator is put right back, the established channel may still have an effect but if too much time passes, it’ll have to be recreated again. If different resonators are swapped out from wooden base to wooden base a number of times, the electromagnetic field in the room will confuse and there’ll be some audible compression by comparison."

Cheers

geoffkait,

As I stated earlier, if you are so interested in the full story, why don’t you email Franck Tchang instead of simply speculating via "curve balls" and other teasers? After all, as I pointed out here earlier, Franck Tchang invites people to email him on his site. But you continually avoid contacting him directly. I wonder why? What have you got to lose? Why not go ahead -- and fill us in from the horses’s mouth -- not simply via quoting the commentary from 6 Moons whose highly impressive alleged Ph.D credentials you refer to seem to have come via The Machina Dynamica Institute of Technology -- lol -- which transforms this discussion into third parties commenting on the opinions of highly impressive credential-deficient second parties to impress other third parties. Hardly the most direct way of going about this, in my opinion -- unless one is in this simply to keep the ball rolling to further one’s already obvious agenda -- with full disclosure having been repeatedly offered up for public view.

Sabai, I’m giving serious consideration to bringing you on board as an associate shill since you have the obsessiveness and tenacity I look for. Keep up the good work. From what I can tell your real talent in this discussion is knocking off someone else’s ideas with a cheap imitations and blinding following others’ diagrams. All of the relevant ideas for Franck Tchang’s tiny little bowls are already in the public domain, thanks in large part to the diligence of the 2 PhDs from 6 Moons, as I’ve pointed out. Those relevant ideas just aren’t in YOUR domain, which probably explains why you react so predictably to "curve balls." 😀

geoffkait,

We are all happily shilling for you here. We love putting up with you -- which amounts to the same thing in the end. You mean you haven’t noticed? Lol.

Regarding "Your real talent ... ". Thank you for your compliment. Regarding "knocking off someone else’s ideas with cheap imitations ... ". In case you didn’t notice ... that’s what this thread and its sister thread are all about ... DIY and finding the best placements -- so we don’t have to spend $100 for each of your tiny original resonator bowls. Lol.

By the way, did you "knock off" yours -- and decide to charge $100 apiece to avoid the accusation they are cheap? Or were they simply the product of your own creative imagination and you’re doing everyone a favor by only charging $100 each for them? Lol.

Regarding "blindly following others’ diagrams ... " you must have seen my white cane in the corner of my Virtual System photo. This explains why I always follow the ideas of others blindly. Lol."

Regarding "All relevant ideas .. are already in the public domain ... " Well, well. You seem to be reading minds once again. How many times does this make it? This time it’s Franck Tchang’s mind that is the subject of your formidable psychic powers. But perhaps you might care to confirm this assertion with Franck himself -- in case you may be wrong. I know, I know. You’re never wrong. And you have no intention of contacting Franck Tchang. You might end up losing a bit of face -- or ending up with a bit of egg on it.

As I say, this is better than sit-com -- and provides the much needed social service of helping out a fellow member in need ... of new customers. Lol.

Keep it coming, geoffkait. You’re doing great.

Sabai, have you given any consideration to a nice long cold shower? 

geoffkait,

How about you? Lol.

All I need is a cold compress to keep my ribs from hurting so much. 

geoffkait,

I am glad you keep those compresses on hand. I would not like to hear you had a medical emergency. Lol.

You guys just made me actually chuckle. Thanks.

I finally got the brass bowls in the mail. I put them in some 3/8" copper plumbing caps.. tight fit, had to use a bench vice to push the bowl into the cap.

Gotta say, I was very sceptical about these HFTs, DIY or not, but they do seem to have an effect. I have lots of experimenting​ to do.

Geoffkait, you did refer to a wavelength range a bunch of posts back. I'm not about to wade through all of the bickering you and Sabai do to find it, but I believe you said 1/8" - 3"

Todd, hi, it’s kind of a long story and I hesitate to answer your direct question regarding wavelengths for that reason. I’m afraid you’ll have to sift through the thread to find what it is I said. I prefer not to *compress* all my words, which I chose carefully, into a simple sentence or two. I don’t mean to be Mr. Mysterioso but would it help if I said every dimension is a wavelength of something? And all wavelengths have corresponding frequencies, too. If it helps you any, disregard Sabai’s posts since they are almost all some sort of personal attack.

I can't tell if I understand what the dickens you're talking about. I feel like I do, but then you make comments that make me question if I do. So then I think you may be assuming things about my knowledge.

I understand waves. I understand they can travel through different forms of matter and energy. I understand that certain wavelengths and their multiples are affected by the dimensions of structures. So, what am I missing? Or am I just not putting the pieces together correctly?

I also got the best effect by putting my resonators on the front of my speakers. That's about it... (being truthful to myself).

Todd, this one’s for you. Hope this helps clear things up.

First, everything you never wanted to know about resonators:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonator

Next, you can now calculate your own acoustic wavelengths using this handy calculator:

http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm

You will need a different calculator to determine electromagnetic wave lengths, obviously.

Voila!

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-radiofrequency.htm


Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Concepts

Todd;
I left a message here yesterday but somehow it never was posted, so here goes again.   I also just got my jkbtn brass bowls and 3/8" copper caps.  I assembled two varieties.  One set, like yours, was pushed together by force.  For the second set I used heavier brass caps as my cone base and superglued them together so the cone sticks out further from the base.
After working around a blown fuse situation I'm finally to the point of testing and comparing my various models. I've also tried various room placements.
I'm going to be very interested in your results since your speakers are different than my Maggie's.  I'm formulating a placement theory but I wonder if my theory might work with Maggie's but not with regular speakers.
Maybe you could try a test for me.
Without any resonators attached, listen to a couple of songs from your favorite evaluation music.  I would like you to listen for the soundstage location and where the vocalist is located?  Also please focus on the upper midrange frequencies and the treble frequencies.
Then add two resonators to the front wall just outside of your cabinet about 3' off the floor & listen again.  Then add a resonator to the front of your speakers and re-evaluate.  Finally, add two more resonators, higher up on the front wall and re-evaluate.
Do you hear any differences?  I'm wondering if your soundstage shifts like mine does.  I also would like to hear what this does, if anything, to your upper midrange and treble.
After that, if you haven't tired of this already, take all the resonators off and try a resonator on the inner side of both your speakers.  Then take those off and attach a resonator to the outer side of your speakers.   Does the soundstage shift?  Do the instraments shift?
I don't want to skew your results by telling you my results right now.  Not to mention, if your results are different than mine, then maybe my results are only good for planer speakers.

Thanks,
Toolbox

Toolbox - will do, though I won't be able to evaluate the sound with the resonators on the wall behind my speakers because of the layout of my room.. there's a doorway directly to the right of my right speaker. I could try a resonator on the door, but the lack of symmetry could very well negate this placement.

I won't have time until tonight or tomorrow. Fun experiment though, I'll happily report back!

@geoffkait thanks! I'll play around with those.

Thanks Todd,
I meant to have you mount them just outside you component cabinet but still between your speakers and inside your wall traps as well.   Looking foreward to your results.

If anyone else what's to join in on the evaluation fun, please do.  Then post a little report.  

I've already finished most of my evaluating on my main setup, and I'm going to try some of this on a second stereo I have.  Unfortunately, my second stereo is placed to be "out-of-the-way" more than it's placed to sound good.

Toolbox

I forgot my youngest has a half day today, so I didn't get to do quite the lengthy listening session I wanted. I used one track that I love (Hazey by Glass Animals) and use consistently as a gauge for the effect of changes to my system.

Here are my notes (never took notes while listening before. Interesting):

None: soundstage extends 30' back, 25' wide , vocalist is 15' back

HFTs just inside speakers: treble is more crisp, better separation of sounds, vocalist further back 25-30' now, soundstage and center are elevated, mids are smoother, soundstage isn't wider, but seems more open

HFTs as above+on front of speakers: more clarity in highs, sounds extend out into the room, widening of the soundstage by 10', soundstage shifted forward-vocalist is 20' but the whole soundstage begins well in front of the speakers now and seems to float in the room. Mids are not much different than above.

HFTs as above+2 higher on back wall: vocalist is back to 25-30', soundstage opened upwards as though a low ceiling were replaced with a big dome, width did not change. Treble seems a bit more relaxed, less in your face, like it has more room, mids seem slightly smoother.
HFTs on inner side of speakers: treble is reduced from above, mids more compressed. Soundstage is deep, vocalist is back 25-30', but it's narrow and barely extends outside the speakers. A mild tunnel effect (without reverb, of course).

HFTs on outer side of speakers: highs are very detailed and spacious, mids more open, very wide soundstage extending well outside the speakers. The depth hasn't increased, though, so the soundstage feels stretched out horizontally. A translucent wall of sound effect.

I'm sensing a pattern..

A few other things: I don't expect everyone's soundstage size to match me. Perceived distances are there for more accurate comparison.

My system:
Dared MC7-P tube preamp
Ghent audio class D monoblocks
Rega P3 (old P3) with exact cartridge
RBH 1266se-r speakers

Did I kill this thread? Oops!

No Todd, you didn't kill this thread.
I, for one, have been extremely busy with some outside work that needed to be done - right now!  Now that my projects are done & the sunny period is behind, I'll be moving back indoors and re-focusing on our little project here.
Thanks for all the great work you did testing the multiple mounting positions and locations for me.  Your results mirror my results with a few differences, probably due to our speakers being so different.
I will be able to do the final testing today, between the Ozinators, the HFTs, and the jkbtnonators (dude, you have to get a better handle than jkbtn :) on my second system.  
The results of the hardware shoot off, and also my position test results will both be posted by this weekend.

Thanks,
Toolbox

Beautiful. It’s funny, I’ve been doing loads of outside work too.. ahh spring. When everything needs to be done NOW!

Looking forward to your report.

Placement findings for music transducers and resonators.

First off, thanks to Todd for also testing a lot of different resonator positions. I was glad to see Todd’s results were comparable to my results. I feel the commonality of our results is a good thing because we have much different speaker types. Todd has box style speakers in his system while I use Magnepans in my main system. I also tested a lesser developed system I have in the main living area. If Todd & I have similar results, I think many of your experiences could be the same as ours. I guess I should issue the disclaimer that while we have heard some common traits in these three systems YMMV. Also, thanks to Ozzy for all his starting tips and suggestions.

Just one quick heads up here. I’m 67 but I like to listen to music at, what I consider to be, a full bodied volume level. Not loud, but loud enough that the Magnepans sing. At my listening level the upper mid-range is still sweet, but it is close to becoming a little harsh. If you play music at a volume level less than full bodied, your results may vary.

Whether you use transducers or any of the resonators we have been talking about, my placement results were similar enough for me to generalize about placements.

I did start off with the published placement guides for HFTs, and then started modifying them with Ozzy’s suggested placement tips. I started off placing one on my front wall two feet up from the floor and a half foot inside the speakers. After listening a bit I added two more about 6 foot high, inside the speakers. I tried many of the other recommended positions as well. I also tried side walls, the back wall, the ceiling, down low in the corners – next to my bass traps, and finally placed directly on my speakers and components. I also tried only using HFTs and then only using resonators as well as a mix of both.

The first thing I noticed is any of these little helpers move the music (the soundstage) and also they tend to highlight certain frequency ranges. The two frequency ranges that were affected in both my systems were the mid-bass range (when I place some low and in the corners) and the upper mid-range area, especially impacting vocals.

For me any transducers or resonators placed near the lower corners of my room caused the bass to become boomy and muddy - not a good trait with Magnepans. I utilize corner bass traps and a pair of subwoofers in my system but make sure my bass remains very tight. If you can stand a little loss of detail in the bass department you might try placing one or two down low, in your corners. I started off with two in each of the four corners (which was very exciting for the first half hour) and gradually backed off until I just had one each, in the front two corners. Even that was too much for my tastes.

Now for the upper mid-range. All of these transducers and resonators embellished my upper mid-range, increasing mid-range definition but overdoing it to the point of slightly diminishing my listening pleasure. The more transducers or resonators I installed, the more I noticed vocals becoming more shrill whenever a vocalist would be singing powerfully, violins became more edgy than sweet, and listening fatigue started to set in. This wasn’t a knock-you-over-the-head change, but enough of a change to be a definite negative. My first step to lessen this was to move my transducers and resonators down lower on the walls & off the ceilings. Taking Ozzy’s advice I moved everything down until no transducers or resonators were higher than my standing chest height. This went a long way toward taming the beast, but in the long run, it still was not enough for me. More about this later…

As far as soundstage goes these transducers and resonators all have a positive effect on the depth of the soundstage. They also have a pronounced effect on the position of the soundstage. In a few days I hope to have a post describing the differences I hear between all the different resonators I have tested and also between different resonator sizes. There are some very noticeable differences in the depth and warmth of the soundstages and frequency responses.

What I want to address here is the position of the sound stage. What both Todd and I have found is the soundstage tends to move toward the direction the transducers/resonators are pointed in.

In my systems, when the resonators are pointed in toward the listener the soundstage moves closer – or the listener’s seat seems closer to the stage - not unlike turning up the volume will move you closer to the stage. If you place a resonator or two on the inner side of both your speakers the soundstage will move in, further constricting what engineers place in the center and bringing centralize sounds such as vocals into a more focused position between the speakers. Likewise, resonators placed on the outside of your speakers will widen the stage and some of the instruments that are panned wide, left or right will sound even further left or right. Pointing my transducers and resonators backward from the back of my speakers did not have as much of an effect but it did have some effect. However, placing a resonator on the back of a couple of objects about a foot or two from my back wall - so that the resonator is facing the back wall - pushed my back wall away from my listening position and helped surround me with more ambiance than I had before.

The more transducers and resonators you place in any one direction the more pronounced the stage movement becomes. (I had a large number or resonators on my front wall and then tried a bunch more, pointing in from my back wall and ended up moving and concentrating my listening area sweet spot so tight, in the middle of the room, that I was no longer sitting in the sweet spot. - Abort Abort!)

I also came to the realization that one can quickly experience “Too much of a good thing”, with these. After experimenting with just a few or having many, many of these I have scaled back my own usage to the point that I only use 8 -10 of these in my system (still haven’t made a final decision). In the end I now have: 2 facing backwards from my speakers - directly toward the front wall but angled slightly upward so they bounce sound off the front walls & up & over the speakers, 2 facing in towards the middle of the soundstage positioned just behind my front speakers, 2 facing in outwards from just behind my front speakers, and 2 on either side of me - facing the rear wall of my listening room from about 15 inches away. I’m experimenting with 2 additional resonators, also facing the front wall, but from outside of my front speakers.
With NO resonators facing in toward me or the room, and using a smaller number of resonators; IMHO my mid-range is more tame and listenable, my soundstage is moved back a bit – where I like it, and my ambiance is a little more enjoyable.

So while some people may have all their transducers or resonators pointed at them and like it (can’t argue with that), and some may have a huge number of resonators in their listening room and like it (can’t argue with that either), I thought I would add an alternative.

Happy listening,
Toolbox

Great write up!

I'm going to have to play with the effects of placement on frequency. I have noticed a subtle shift in which frequencies seem more prominent since I've installed these crazy little things. 

I think putting them lower is where I need to head.. thanks again for the detailed write up. You definitely went more in depth than I..

Excellent write up of results with the transducers and resonators. As I predicted trial and error is not really an effective way to obtain maximum results with resonators or transducers. And even following general diagrams can be risky. The only methodology that avoids all the pitfalls described in Toolbox’s post is the one is suggested early on - using a SPL meter and test tone to establish where exactly the sound pressure PEAKS are in the room. The best you can possibly do with a trial and error methodology is what is usually called a local maximum. It’s a lot like trying to find the absolute best speaker locations by trail and error. Only worse, since there are many more things to find locations for. Make sense?

The technique of Trail and Error is like trying to solve say 10 simultaneous equations in 15 unknowns. This problem with resonators is exactly the same problem at audio shows where there are a number of empty beer or coke bottles lying around on tables and on the floor. They act as resonators and affect the sound, mostly negatively, moving the soundstage around in weird ways and changing tonality and frequency response. Once you misplace one resonator or more, it will be more difficult to get good results even when proper locations are found as you proceed. Make sense?

With the SPL meter technique you can cut your time down tremendously and you will obtain much better results. Think of soundstage as a 3D sphere, what you really want to achieve is a centered deep and wide and high soundstage, one that is transparent and full of details and life. As the soundstage becomes more fleshed out and centered you should observe the 3D sphere expand like a balloon being filled up. CORRECT placement of transducers and resonators will results in smoother and more extended frequency response, without the peakiness some have noted. 

Thanks for the great write up, toolbox. Today I took all the DIY resonator cups off the walls and speakers. I'll probably throw them away. But I did have a ton of fun making them and playing with them for the past couple of weeks. I thought these things deepened the sound stage... but I was wrong. I was simply trying to defend my investment ($30 and labor and expectations). Just a placebo effect.

Well, I went from a gazillion resonators down to just ten.  With the smaller amount,  I do hear a nice addition to, and a repositioning of my soundstage.  Not the groundbreaking, earthshaking change some have stated, but a nice little tweak, nonetheless.  I'm happy!
My most pleasurable gain came by adding a resonator to each side of my front speakers. The outside resonators provided me with a slightly wider stage but also more ambiance. The inward facing resonators brought the singers and main instraments closer in toward center stage while providing much more definition for the individual parts.  This was done with just four resonators.  I got a little greedy and doubled the resonators (now with four facing inward and four facing out) with the new resonators placed about 15-18" below the first resonators.  The result was more muddy and harsh.
So now, I'm a confirmed minimalist when it comes to using these things.
Hopefully, you don't throw your resonators away.  Maybe after some time with no resonators, you might try adding one to the inside of both your speakers or maybe try the outside edge.  For me, I found that having my inward facing resonators at ear level (when seated) and my outward facing ones about 1 - 1.5 feet higher gave me the best reward.  That's as high off the floor as I would ever want to go.
But in the end, it's all about what makes the best music to you and your ears only.  So, if you end up liking music better without them - leave em' in a box.
BTW I have a couple of different versions of your resonators and they work very well for me.  I just built a few more smaller resonator types so I could test if different cone sizes affect different frequencies.  I also used heavier and lighter bases for the resonators to find out if the base material affects the sound.  Hopefully, I'll have the time to do the testing a couple of times, and write up a report soon.  I'm gonna try get it out this weekend or maybe early next week.  
Thanks for all your help.

Toolbox

Jkbtn - yeah, it’s a very subtle effect, much less noticeable than cable changes. If I had paid serious money for these, I’d be not very happy, or telling myself they work better than they do. Though maybe the official ones work better. Though I’m sceptical. Very sceptical.

I agree they are fun to make, and I’m content with their performance relative to my time and money outlay.

Toolbox - I'm interested to hear your results with the different sizes/weights.. thanks again.

Just as I predicted and thanks again for the detailed report, Toolbox. More is not more sometimes. Lol

The problem with going off a little bit half cocked as it were with these transducers and resonators is that it very easy to do more harm than good. And without knowing what to look for in terms of results one is tempted to jump to certain conclusions too quickly. Once you have committed to a bunch of placements that are not "good" it’s very difficult to correct for these mistakes down the road, I.e., by adding more and more. The damage has already been done. It’s what we call going too far. Icarus ignored his father's warnings and went too far too fast and fell to his death. 😥

Are the real and more expensive transducers and resonators more effective than these DIY jobbers? Has anyone here read the reviews of the real McCoys, you know, the Franck Tchang resonators made of pure platinum or silver or gold, the ones DIYers abhor? 😧 Or the real SR transducers? It’s a lot like trying to knock off Shun Mook Mpingo discs without understanding the principles involved. Or trying to make bread without the benefit of a recipe.

So this is all about the transmission of polarities of shear from one solid material to another..something that isolation fails to address.
Geometric shapes primarily are the most important aspect of this transfer system and then the actual shear velocity of the material or materials. Compression waves when they contact any solid surface become shear waves which become trapped within isolation forms and systems contained in and on devices..walls and chassis, speaker boxes and other components all to be remixed with the signal you wish to maintain. Motors, transformers and speakers and the vinyl LP all these generate shear waves of which,  some polarities are a necessary part of sound reproduction..one polarity is not useful but harmful to the transfer of energy and detrimental to sound integrity. Tom

Reading this with interest, want to thank everyone for taking the time to share. Will make my own report Sunday.

theaudiotweak
So this is all about the transmission of polarities of shear from one solid material to another..something that isolation fails to address.
Geometric shapes primarily are the most important aspect of this transfer system and then the actual shear velocity of the material or materials. Compression waves when they contact any solid surface become shear waves which become trapped within isolation forms and systems contained in and on devices..walls and chassis, speaker boxes and other components all to be remixed with the signal you wish to maintain. Motors, transformers and speakers and the vinyl LP all these generate shear waves of which, some polarities are a necessary part of sound reproduction..one polarity is not useful but harmful to the transfer of energy and detrimental to sound integrity. Tom

Tom, you should probably read the white paper on the active isolation system by Herzan that Folkfreak posted the other day that specifically addresses these self-induced vibrations you're referring to. Obviously, the recent spate of speaker isolation devices and platforms also address these issues. So, to summarize, you’re wrong that isolation doesn’t address self induced vibration, from whatever source, transformers, speakers, what have you. If isolation could not address ALL vibrations LIGO would never have been able to detect gravity waves, you remember, the ones with the amplitude of the nucleus of an atom. 

Addendum to my previous post

for those vibration isolation systems that do not absorb induced vibrations the obvious and simple solution is damping and other methods of dissipating or evacuating vibration. No one, certainly not your humble scribe, even suggested that induced vibrations from whatever source should remain trapped in the system. Heaven forbid! I have always said that in addition to competent vibration isolation there should be effective damping as well. Either constrained layer damping - I actually design one, I.e., VibraBlock, or Marigo VTS dots, or Herbies tube dampers and any number of audiophile products, even cork, another product of mine designed with the induced vibration in mind - Quark!

In fact all of my iso stands had dampers built in and included NASA grade ceramic cones, the next hardest thing to diamonds for mounting the component and the stand. That’s since 1997. Hel-loo!

And I’ve always recommended very hard cones for both components on the iso stand AND for the iso stand itself to allow vibrations to exit the system rapidly. Any type of vibration or mechanical energy, whatever you wish to call it.  But to ignore isolation or claim it’s not possible or claim vibrations should be free to roam around the room or that induced vibrations make isolation impossible or ineffective is pretty much poppycock and just plain wrongheaded. The cat is out of the bag and has been for more than 20 years. Which ironically is the length of time the Rip Van Winkle dude was asleep. Wake up and smell the coffee!

So Geoff I will have to say the homeowners association for your condo probably won't permit you to build a LIGO in your play room right.? Even if you could build such a home brew device..

When you turn your hi fi on and play music you generate compression waves and they become  shear waves..after hitting any solid material. So when this does happen all your isolation is gone..Your isolation system even a  LIGO at home.. and not by any well guarded good design or plan becomes a container for all the self generated shear in your sound system and all that motors thru your home. I am certain the Real One and Only LIGO  site does not allow a 140 db arena sound system to be played in their facility. But even if it was 85 to 90db like at home you would generate shear wave interference. All audio components anything with a motor or transformer or a chassis...your speakers all generate and transmit and carry shear energy which cannot be isolated from your room or your sound system. Some audio components require shear waves to function.Yours meaning Geoff's ...isolation system can not determine the polarity of shear that does have a meaningful function of sound reproduction versus the polarity of shear that becomes interfering energy. Your isolation system works to preserve all polarities of shear the good and the bad and that is the result in your audio outcome.

I called Herzan and they said their products only deal with signals that come from below. After I asked more questions I was passed on to a nice lady.  I asked her if their devices could discern shear motions and their polarity she said no, try damping..That sucks away energy you know like isolation materials..

The application of hard materials with specific geometry to room surfaces and some contents provides the music listener with the greatest physical and emotional experience..it is all about shear and its transference. That is what is happening with these small tuning devices, those that contact hard surfaces in the room.

Tom

Theaudiotweak
I called Herzan and they said their products only deal with signals that come from below. After I asked more questions I was passed on to a nice lady. I asked her if their devices could discern shear motions and their polarity she said no, try damping..That sucks away energy you know like isolation materials..

Exactly! "Try damping." That’s what I just got through saying. Furthermore, if the speaker isolation devices are two way devices, preventing seismic vibrations from going up and preventing speaker cabinet vibrations from going down then where’s the beef?

The application of hard materials with specific geometry to room surfaces and some contents provides the music listener with the greatest physical and emotional experience..it is all about shear and its transference. That is what is happening with these small tuning devices, those that contact hard surfaces.

Sorry, Charlie, not really, not with the transducers and resonators we’ve been discussing. You’re way off. Obviously the diagrams for placement of resonators is where the acoustic pressure peak are maximum, not the wall resonances. As Judge Judy says, if it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. Now, that’s not to say there aren’t devices like the Tekna Sonic dampers of yore and Shun Mook Mpingo discs, even my Brilliant Pebbles that can be attached to walls and Windows to dissipate energy that way. And some of transducers and resonators can work on surface vibrations such as on walls and speakers. It's worth mentioning acoustic waves are equivalennt to mechanical waves, anyway, so the point is a little moot, no? 

But the fact remains you must isolate AND damp, not one or the other. But if you have. A choice and wish to get the most bang for your buck choose isolation.

"The only good vibration is a dead vibration." - Shannon Dickson, author of Bad Vibes, 1996, Stereophile magazine

I had tried damping previous the result was much the same except for the reduction in amplitude at all frequencies. A minor change in geometric shape was the fix. A change of the reflective angle between the two surfaces. Tom 

theaudiotweak
1,483 posts
05-04-2017 8:40pm
I had tried damping previous the result was much the same except for the reduction in amplitude at all frequencies. A minor change in geometric shape was the fix. A change of the reflective angle between the two surfaces. Tom

Nobody promised you a rose garden. If it (damping) was that easy everyone could do it. For one thing damping - like isolation - is an art. Take tube dampers, for example. While most of them look they would be a good idea, and many are very clever, they actually hurt the sound. The elastomer rings, the braided copper Swiss ones, the ebony ones. Almost everyone single one of them! Only one type of tube damper actually improves the sound.

Check out Marigo VTS Dots sometime, tiny little constrained layer dampers for all manner of things like capacitors, speaker diaphragms, speaker frames, component chassis, electron tubes, even larger dots for walls and windows. The most common Marigo dot size is 1/8" diameter. Hel-loo!

Damping, like isolation - It’s a science AND an art. Rome wasn’t built in a day. That’s why it’s important to damp the top plate of an isolation device but damp it the right way. There are plenty of wrong ways to damp it or to over damp it. The same thing goes for the way the component is interfaced to the iso stand and how the iso stand is interfaced to the floor or rack. The materials and shapes are critical. Everything is critical. My advice is don’t be an isolation hater. Be an isolation lover.

geoff kait
machina dynamica
the difficult we do quickly, the impossible takes longer

Todd, jkbtn, Ozzy & mid40sguy,
Thanks for your interest and input about transducer and resonator selection and placement.  I will be running my final head to head tests this weekend and I want to make sure my tests and opinions are meaningful for the people who are adding to this conversation.
If the four of you could just shoot me a quick post discribing the resonators you ended up using, that would be great.  I could use the type & size of the cones you use, the type & size of the bases you use, and how you attached them to each other.  If you built more than one type, feel free to let me know about any others you are interested in.

Thanks
Toolbox

Toolbox - I used the brass 'bowl' beads inserted into 1/4" copper pipe caps. They press fit. I used a because vice to push them together.

Thanks Todd.  Were the brass bowl beads you used the fly fishing lure cones, or something else?

Toolbox

sorry, it was 3/8" copper caps.  and these are the cones i used: http://www.ebay.com/itm/302130537660?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=600948813663&ssPageNam...

they're for making jewelery.

OK. Got it!   I'm glad I asked.
If I'm not mistaken yours are fairly similar to the ones jkbtn built.

Toolbox

Not similar, exactly the same. I didn't want a thousand different pieces that didn't fit into one another laying around, so I used his info to good effect. I bought a 1/4" copper cap yesterday, I'm going to use my calipers to measure the ID and see if I can find those same brass 'bowl' beads in the appropriate size. I like the press fit. But I'd like to go smaller and see what they sound like.. 

If you like, I'd be happy to send you a bunch of completed pieces. I have a whole lot of those brass bowls, and copper caps are easy enough to come by. 
It'll save you some time and put those brass beads to good use.

The same people that sell the brass beads you mentioned sell them in 10mm, 12mm and 14mm sizes, and even smaller.

I have found that I like the Cups that you have been using, but in more substantial bases.  I'm starting to write it all up & should be done in a day or two.

Toolbox

I actually tried hard but each time with each different placement/setup I had no doubt I was hearing absolutely no difference in sound quality/stage. I am no Mozart but I’ve reached these conclusions based on what I was hearing. If you are interested in these resonators (before you go any further to spend money and time) send me a private message. You can come on by and pick them up if you live in southern California. I am a retired mechanical engineer.

The single biggest improvement I’ve ever made (besides buying new CDP, amp, speakers) resulted from re-positioning the speakers so that the drivers were way out in front of the big screen TV and the front wall… dramatically improved sound stage, blossoming in space between and behind the speakers. Oh and, draping a thick fleece blanket over my Samsung TV really worked, resulting in a little more defined sound quality. It only made a little difference but definitely noticeable. The problem was it didn’t look good so I stopped using it.

Question to those of you on this thread? Are you using the SR FEQ (or equivalent RF pulse generator) along with your SR or home build resonators? The FEQ really is essential to activate the resonators but is itself mighty sensitive to a) grounding (if you have more than one FEQ make sure they are grounded exactly together) and b) footing -- after much experimentation I have mine on custom symposium bases, the bases themselves on roller blocks

I also experimented with placement of my pair of FEQs and after much to and fro ended up with them behind my speakers -- I also use an Atmosphere which is placed between my speakers

Anyway for those who like the effect of their HFTs do investigate adding some form of activator

Your speakers compression waves are the activators. Any thing in your room act the same way..its all in the touch. Tom