Grammar Trap Alert! Inappropriate use of the word isolated. A further elucidation of your question would be helpful, Tom, although I thought my post was clear. What are you trying to say? Define "it." Define "isolated." Define "emissions." Define "closed system."
Placement tips for Synergistic Research HTFs
I just bought 15 HTFs and will also be making about a dozen of Ozzie's homemade models. While I will re-fresh myself with SR's placement tips, and I get that I will have to do some experimenting to tailor the HFT effect to MY listening room; are there any "Advanced HFT Placement Tips" some of you would like to share with us? Something that might be overlooked by many of us? Or maybe, just a good rule-of-thumb tip for someone just starting to use these?
The tips could be tips for bring out more highs, solidifying the bass response, placement hi vs low, in front of vs behind speakers, on side walls, at reflection points, behind the listener, on the ceiling above the equipment or above the listener, on the equipment.
Any ah-ha that you would like to share? I would also be very interested in hearing from people using Magnapans.
The tips could be tips for bring out more highs, solidifying the bass response, placement hi vs low, in front of vs behind speakers, on side walls, at reflection points, behind the listener, on the ceiling above the equipment or above the listener, on the equipment.
Any ah-ha that you would like to share? I would also be very interested in hearing from people using Magnapans.
Showing 50 responses by geoffkait
roberjerman Try covering all your room surfaces with aluminum foil - the infamous Faraday cage - complete isolation from all outside electromagnetic fields! A great improvement in low-level detail and sound stage! Actually, a Faraday cage, while it would certainly help, would not stop the electromagnetc fields produced by electronics and appliances inside the room and would not stop RF from coming in via the power cables. Furthermore, a Faraday cage can't really be very infamous since it is effective for outside EM interference. |
sabai "geoffkait, I favor using at least 3 modalities. How do you know how many people are getting "mixed results" and are "forced to go back to ... using only a few resonators"? Have you taken a survey of resonator users? How large was the survey sample? Where is the proof for your categorical claim -- upon which you conclude that "trial and error is inherently flawed"? The proof is in your head and nowhere else. You are right. I will not accept your shallow and flawed explanation. It obviously does not deserve to be accepted at face value. But, as always, you are convinced that you are the forum authority on whatever you care to expound on. No other possibilities exist after you make your pronouncements from the audio pulpit. Who indeed could care less about audio preachers who twist reason into audio pretzels -- in order to stay in the forum limelight to catch new customers? How’s business this week? Lol." Sabai, you are a victim of the Backfire Effect and unable to deal with any point of view that disagrees with yours. I wasn’t even addressing you. It all comes down to education and experience. Your "modalities" are outmoded. I will leave you where I found you. |
What we have here is failure to communicate. The reason many who've tried the trial and error technique that you apparently favor get mixed results and are forced to go back to a minimalist approach using only a few resonators is because the trial and error approach is inherently flawed. Obviously you will not accept no for an answer, so be it. Who cares? |
I have always maintained the SPL meter and test tone method is superior to trial and error for any type of resonator, transducer, Brilliant Pebbles included. My directions on the page for Brilliant Pebbles include the SPL meter recommendation. Some applications for Brilliant Pebbles are straightforward and don’t require a SPL meter, but they might require experimentation. For example, sometimes the pebbles work on top of speaker cabinets, sometimes they don’t; sometimes they work next to small vacuum tubes, sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they work on connectors of IC, sometimes they don’t. There are several sizes of pebbles each with its own set of applications. That’s really what I meant by "some experimentation might be required." But for room walls and room corners you want the resonators to go where they will do the most good, which is where the peak SPLs are located, including in the 3D space of the room. In room corners on the floor Large BrillIant Pebbles is usually very effective. But SPL meter and test tone sometimes reveals that the exact corner may not be the absolute best in some cases, the very best location might be say, 12" in one direction or the other from the corner. This is also true for Tube Traps. So one can get good results by trial and error by locating *local maximums* but SPL meter + test tone can locate the *real maximums*. If a customer buys only 3 Brilliant Pebbles he might not require a SPL meter and test tone, but once the number of resonators becomes high using a better methodolgy than trial and error becomes important. Without a methodology like the SPL meter + test tone trying to find the ideal locations for resonators is like trying to solve N number of simultaneous equations in N+5 unknowns. In other words you're gonna need a super computer. Hel-loo! |
05-18-2017 9:26am @geoffkait my questions weren’t snarky. Those are actual questions I have. My statement that I won’t get straight answers is based on my past interactions with you and was meant to be playful, not critical. Actual questions? Won’t get straight answers? Past interactions? Huh? Are you high? I just answered all your actual questions in the link I provided and you come back with a load of horse manure. |
Todd, you sure make a lot of assumptions. What's up with the attitude? Instead of my having to answer your rather snarky questions why don’t you do this - take a deep breath then go read up on crystals on my web site. http://machinadynamica.com/machina17.htm Have a nice day |
My Brilliant Pebbles was the first comprehensive crystal-based (all crystal, actually) audio product to address all aspects of the audio system and room, and was introduced at the London HiFi Show way back in 2003 (WHOA!!) which was in fact some years after they were an actual product. I suspect I might possibly know a little more than the average bear about crystals. Fire at will. |
To briefly summarize this discussion of tiny little bowl resonators and similar devices: A number of applications for these tiny little resonators and transducers have been identified, not only when used directly on objects and room surfaces but in the 3D space of the room, and even when used in other rooms. 1. Vibration of walls and other room surfaces 2. Vibration of component chassis 3. Vibration of speaker cabinets 4. Dissipation of acoustic wave anomalies such as reflected waves and standing waves 5. Dissipation of RFI/EMI energy We also found that the material itself is important and that pure metals like good, silver and platinum and copper have their own unique sonic signatures. Of course we also know there are a lot of other techniques for calming vibrations on wall, components and speakers, constrained layer dampers like Marigo VTS dots, for example and the out of production Tekna Sonic dampers. You can also give vibrations a chance to escape the confinement of speakers or component simply by placing hard cone on top, point up. I count at least four manufacturers of these tiny little bowl resonators currently, including your humble scribe. The first of course and the person who should get most of the credit is Franck Tchang who introduced the whole idea around 15 years ago. |
Speaking of SPL meters, having spent more time with resonators of various types and SPL meters than the average bear, I feel it’s only right to mention that resonators are not only effective in various locations on walls of the room -which is almost always where it’s suggested they be placed - but also ANYWHERE in the 3D space of the room where a sound pressure peak happens to be located. And which can be easily found with...you guessed it! - an SPL meter and test tone. By dissipating the unwanted energy of standing waves, reflected waves, echoes, etc. the resonators are reducing the comb filter effects present in an untreated room, including comb filter effects produced by acoustic anomalies in the 3D space of the room. In fact the tiny bowl resonators and similar devices could be hung by string from the ceiling slightly out from the wall and not touching the wall - and be equally effective. In fact, Franck Tchang’s original acoustic resonators were not tightly coupled to the wall, but rested gently on a bracket, presumably so the metal bowls would be free to resonate. |
theaudiotweak 1,483 posts 05-04-2017 8:40pm I had tried damping previous the result was much the same except for the reduction in amplitude at all frequencies. A minor change in geometric shape was the fix. A change of the reflective angle between the two surfaces. Tom Nobody promised you a rose garden. If it (damping) was that easy everyone could do it. For one thing damping - like isolation - is an art. Take tube dampers, for example. While most of them look they would be a good idea, and many are very clever, they actually hurt the sound. The elastomer rings, the braided copper Swiss ones, the ebony ones. Almost everyone single one of them! Only one type of tube damper actually improves the sound. Check out Marigo VTS Dots sometime, tiny little constrained layer dampers for all manner of things like capacitors, speaker diaphragms, speaker frames, component chassis, electron tubes, even larger dots for walls and windows. The most common Marigo dot size is 1/8" diameter. Hel-loo! Damping, like isolation - It’s a science AND an art. Rome wasn’t built in a day. That’s why it’s important to damp the top plate of an isolation device but damp it the right way. There are plenty of wrong ways to damp it or to over damp it. The same thing goes for the way the component is interfaced to the iso stand and how the iso stand is interfaced to the floor or rack. The materials and shapes are critical. Everything is critical. My advice is don’t be an isolation hater. Be an isolation lover. geoff kait machina dynamica the difficult we do quickly, the impossible takes longer |
Theaudiotweak I called Herzan and they said their products only deal with signals that come from below. After I asked more questions I was passed on to a nice lady. I asked her if their devices could discern shear motions and their polarity she said no, try damping..That sucks away energy you know like isolation materials.. Exactly! "Try damping." That’s what I just got through saying. Furthermore, if the speaker isolation devices are two way devices, preventing seismic vibrations from going up and preventing speaker cabinet vibrations from going down then where’s the beef? The application of hard materials with specific geometry to room surfaces and some contents provides the music listener with the greatest physical and emotional experience..it is all about shear and its transference. That is what is happening with these small tuning devices, those that contact hard surfaces. Sorry, Charlie, not really, not with the transducers and resonators we’ve been discussing. You’re way off. Obviously the diagrams for placement of resonators is where the acoustic pressure peak are maximum, not the wall resonances. As Judge Judy says, if it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. Now, that’s not to say there aren’t devices like the Tekna Sonic dampers of yore and Shun Mook Mpingo discs, even my Brilliant Pebbles that can be attached to walls and Windows to dissipate energy that way. And some of transducers and resonators can work on surface vibrations such as on walls and speakers. It's worth mentioning acoustic waves are equivalennt to mechanical waves, anyway, so the point is a little moot, no? But the fact remains you must isolate AND damp, not one or the other. But if you have. A choice and wish to get the most bang for your buck choose isolation. "The only good vibration is a dead vibration." - Shannon Dickson, author of Bad Vibes, 1996, Stereophile magazine |
Addendum to my previous post for those vibration isolation systems that do not absorb induced vibrations the obvious and simple solution is damping and other methods of dissipating or evacuating vibration. No one, certainly not your humble scribe, even suggested that induced vibrations from whatever source should remain trapped in the system. Heaven forbid! I have always said that in addition to competent vibration isolation there should be effective damping as well. Either constrained layer damping - I actually design one, I.e., VibraBlock, or Marigo VTS dots, or Herbies tube dampers and any number of audiophile products, even cork, another product of mine designed with the induced vibration in mind - Quark! In fact all of my iso stands had dampers built in and included NASA grade ceramic cones, the next hardest thing to diamonds for mounting the component and the stand. That’s since 1997. Hel-loo! And I’ve always recommended very hard cones for both components on the iso stand AND for the iso stand itself to allow vibrations to exit the system rapidly. Any type of vibration or mechanical energy, whatever you wish to call it. But to ignore isolation or claim it’s not possible or claim vibrations should be free to roam around the room or that induced vibrations make isolation impossible or ineffective is pretty much poppycock and just plain wrongheaded. The cat is out of the bag and has been for more than 20 years. Which ironically is the length of time the Rip Van Winkle dude was asleep. Wake up and smell the coffee! |
theaudiotweak So this is all about the transmission of polarities of shear from one solid material to another..something that isolation fails to address. Geometric shapes primarily are the most important aspect of this transfer system and then the actual shear velocity of the material or materials. Compression waves when they contact any solid surface become shear waves which become trapped within isolation forms and systems contained in and on devices..walls and chassis, speaker boxes and other components all to be remixed with the signal you wish to maintain. Motors, transformers and speakers and the vinyl LP all these generate shear waves of which, some polarities are a necessary part of sound reproduction..one polarity is not useful but harmful to the transfer of energy and detrimental to sound integrity. Tom Tom, you should probably read the white paper on the active isolation system by Herzan that Folkfreak posted the other day that specifically addresses these self-induced vibrations you're referring to. Obviously, the recent spate of speaker isolation devices and platforms also address these issues. So, to summarize, you’re wrong that isolation doesn’t address self induced vibration, from whatever source, transformers, speakers, what have you. If isolation could not address ALL vibrations LIGO would never have been able to detect gravity waves, you remember, the ones with the amplitude of the nucleus of an atom. |
Just as I predicted and thanks again for the detailed report, Toolbox. More is not more sometimes. Lol The problem with going off a little bit half cocked as it were with these transducers and resonators is that it very easy to do more harm than good. And without knowing what to look for in terms of results one is tempted to jump to certain conclusions too quickly. Once you have committed to a bunch of placements that are not "good" it’s very difficult to correct for these mistakes down the road, I.e., by adding more and more. The damage has already been done. It’s what we call going too far. Icarus ignored his father's warnings and went too far too fast and fell to his death. 😥 Are the real and more expensive transducers and resonators more effective than these DIY jobbers? Has anyone here read the reviews of the real McCoys, you know, the Franck Tchang resonators made of pure platinum or silver or gold, the ones DIYers abhor? 😧 Or the real SR transducers? It’s a lot like trying to knock off Shun Mook Mpingo discs without understanding the principles involved. Or trying to make bread without the benefit of a recipe. |
Excellent write up of results with the transducers and resonators. As I predicted trial and error is not really an effective way to obtain maximum results with resonators or transducers. And even following general diagrams can be risky. The only methodology that avoids all the pitfalls described in Toolbox’s post is the one is suggested early on - using a SPL meter and test tone to establish where exactly the sound pressure PEAKS are in the room. The best you can possibly do with a trial and error methodology is what is usually called a local maximum. It’s a lot like trying to find the absolute best speaker locations by trail and error. Only worse, since there are many more things to find locations for. Make sense? The technique of Trail and Error is like trying to solve say 10 simultaneous equations in 15 unknowns. This problem with resonators is exactly the same problem at audio shows where there are a number of empty beer or coke bottles lying around on tables and on the floor. They act as resonators and affect the sound, mostly negatively, moving the soundstage around in weird ways and changing tonality and frequency response. Once you misplace one resonator or more, it will be more difficult to get good results even when proper locations are found as you proceed. Make sense? With the SPL meter technique you can cut your time down tremendously and you will obtain much better results. Think of soundstage as a 3D sphere, what you really want to achieve is a centered deep and wide and high soundstage, one that is transparent and full of details and life. As the soundstage becomes more fleshed out and centered you should observe the 3D sphere expand like a balloon being filled up. CORRECT placement of transducers and resonators will results in smoother and more extended frequency response, without the peakiness some have noted. |
Todd, this one’s for you. Hope this helps clear things up. First, everything you never wanted to know about resonators: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonator Next, you can now calculate your own acoustic wavelengths using this handy calculator: http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm You will need a different calculator to determine electromagnetic wave lengths, obviously. Voila! http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-radiofrequency.htm Cheers, Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica Advanced Audio Concepts |
Todd, hi, it’s kind of a long story and I hesitate to answer your direct question regarding wavelengths for that reason. I’m afraid you’ll have to sift through the thread to find what it is I said. I prefer not to *compress* all my words, which I chose carefully, into a simple sentence or two. I don’t mean to be Mr. Mysterioso but would it help if I said every dimension is a wavelength of something? And all wavelengths have corresponding frequencies, too. If it helps you any, disregard Sabai’s posts since they are almost all some sort of personal attack. |
Sabai, I’m giving serious consideration to bringing you on board as an associate shill since you have the obsessiveness and tenacity I look for. Keep up the good work. From what I can tell your real talent in this discussion is knocking off someone else’s ideas with a cheap imitations and blinding following others’ diagrams. All of the relevant ideas for Franck Tchang’s tiny little bowls are already in the public domain, thanks in large part to the diligence of the 2 PhDs from 6 Moons, as I’ve pointed out. Those relevant ideas just aren’t in YOUR domain, which probably explains why you react so predictably to "curve balls." 😀 |
toddverrone They’re electromagnetic, I’m just curious about what type based on your wavelength description. And also curious how that would affect sound. Actually I didn’t exactly specify the wavelength. What I did say was that the highest frequency Franck Tchang measured with respect to the effect of his bowls was 3 GHz. One naturally assumes he measured many other frequencies, 3 GHz was just the highest. How these EM waves affect the sound has been the subject of much debate over the years. But obviously there are many unescapable producers of this EM interference therefore one has a rather big task in front of him if he wishes to uh, fix things. From the second visit to Franck Tchang’s place by the two PhDs from 6 Moons: "Just to throw a major curve ball, he did let on that the resonators are also electromagnetic receivers. "Their small size creates ’poles’ but because the devices are passive, it takes time to set up the associated pathways This explains the settling-in cycle during installation. Once the cycle has completed itself, electromagnetic energy in the room connects with the poles and the room is cleaned up. When a resonator is removed, the electromagnetic energy will try to reach another pole. If the original resonator is put right back, the established channel may still have an effect but if too much time passes, it’ll have to be recreated again. If different resonators are swapped out from wooden base to wooden base a number of times, the electromagnetic field in the room will confuse and there’ll be some audible compression by comparison." Cheers |
toddverrone "Ok, so I’m not confused. My understanding of physics isn’t a total wreck." I’ll be the judge of that. "So, jeez, what waves are we dealing with here then? What are they classified as?" Apparently they should be classified Top Secret. Lol Well, let’s see, we know they’re not acoustic waves that I’m talking about here because Franck Tchang measured effects up to 3 GHz or whatever on his spectrum analyzer. Obviously acoustic waves are part of what’s going on with the tiny little bowls but that’s not the whole story. That’s why we’ve been discussing this particular thing for what, 3 weeks? Has it been longer? I kind of lost track of time. Lol Actually I already went into detail of the type of waves I’m referring to but I guess I didn’t realize how difficult it would be to get through. Lol They’re not gravity waves because as we’ve seen those wavelengths are super-long. They aren’t waves of joy, judging from Sabai’s reaction. Lol 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 |
Sabai, are u obsessed with me or what? Please keep the personalities down to a dull roar. You’re the only one here name calling. Oh, one more thing, if you’re going to use my name in your posts would it be too much to ask you to spell it correctly? Have a nice day, Geoff Kait machina dramatica home of brilliant pebbles |
Sabai wrote, "...unless there are laws of physics of which I am unaware." Bingo! Weren’t you the one who said, "I really don’t care how something works as long as it works."? OK, so I admit it was a trick question since photons are never at rest and MUST always travel at light speed c (as Einstein predicted). Also, according to the Lorentz transformations mass becomes infinite at the speed of light c. So the only way a non-stationary photon can have mass is if energy is equivalent to mass. E=mc2. Which of course it is. |
😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 Photons moving at full speed toddverrone So now I’m confused. Photons are the carriers of EM waves, so if we’re talking about an EM radiation with wavelengths 3 - 25 mm, how are the photons at rest? They’re obviously not at rest. But seeing them *at rest* is the only way you can see them, no? pop quiz: if photons have zero rest mass, Mo, does that mean they have mass when they’re moving? If so, how can they have mass when they’re moving at light speed? |
OK, I’ll ask again. Transducer, radiator, resonator. What’s the difference? Furthermore, Franck Tchang goes out of his way to point out that the radiation of the tiny little bowls - as measured on a spectrum analyzer - extends up to Gigshertz range AND is NOT distance dependent. Have you been able to completely ignore those statements? What in the wide world of sports is going on here?! Hel-loo! And if these tiny little transducers, radiators whatever are radiating acoustic energy into the room wouldn’t that produce more information than is actually on the recording? |
The HFT X is a transducer. How do I know? Because it has a tiny speaker, you know, a transducer, mounted in it, that’s how. The real question that’s still hanging out there is, are the tiny little bowls something else besides resonators? From what I know and from what Franck Tchang says, the answer is .....drum roll...YES. Isn’t it obvious? So, here's a question, what's the diff between resonator, transducer and radiator? |
The trouble is, when you don't know what you're doing with these resonators, and just guessing, by putting a lot of them in the room, in fact a huge number according to you, you're absorbing the good along with the bad. Before you know it you're back where you started from. Which is nowhere. Sabai, look within. |
How about a big group hug and try to move on? How about this? Can anyone explain in the paragraph I posted yesterday from 6 Moons why Franck Tchang specifically pointed out he measured the spectrum of radiation effects for his tiny little bowls as high as 3 GHz? Also, why he pointed out that the radiation he was referring to was not distance dependent? You know, since everybody and his brother knows that audio frequencies go up to what, 20 kHz or maybe 30 kHz, give or take, AND that acoustic waves actually *diminish* in amplitude according to distance. You remember, our old friend, the inverse square law. |
This just in! From 6 Moons’ Return Visit to Franck Tchang. Looks like we know the secret of tiny little bowls in the courtyard of Franck Tchang’s abode. And why distance is irrelevant, and why the tiny little bowls should be placed in every room. Anyone else catch that it's NOT all about "equalizing air pressure differentials?" cheers, everybody! geoff kait Machina Dynamica Advanced Audio Concepts "The resonators also become focal points for intense overtone radiation. That is denser at their points of origin than in the surrounding air. As directional organs, our ears key into these radiation sources and our acoustic perception of the space we’re in is altered. Again, no music needs to be played to sense this spatial overlay. Speech will do, or the sound of our own foot fall. Being completely passive, the resonators can only be activated by received energy. As HF modulators, a full-range input obviously isn’t needed. Franck Tchang has used a spectrum analyzer to corroborate this action up to 3GHz. By affecting the ordinary acoustic damping through adding parallel values from the resonators, original HF content reappears. It becomes audible again and rebalanced against the LF energies. Treble decays improve and the subjective impression of audible space deepens. The resonators equalize air pressure differentials and can be installed in a fridge, mailbox or outside a room. Distance will not affect their efficaciousness. That’s quite a fatal blow to common sense but there it is according to the maestro. Franck has treated recording studios, performance venues, bars, living spaces and entire buildings. His demand as an expert tuning maestro is growing. That brings to mind Combak Corp.’s Kiuchi-San who enjoys a similar reputation in Japan." |