Placement tips for Synergistic Research HTFs

Where did you find info on Ozzy's diy HFTs? I'd be interested in trying these, but not if I have to buy them...

@ozzy thanks a million! It's nice to have something productive pop up between the bickering.

I just checked out the tiny metal bowls... They're for fly tying! That's great! I used to tie flies and go fly fishing a lot in middle and high school.. I never wrote have thought to look for tiny bowls there. How the heck did you find them, Ozzy?

*would

Have either of you built/used HFTs of different sizes to focus on particular frequencies that are amplified by the room? Or do you just build a bunch and hope they cover the frequencies you need help with?

@toolbox149 thanks for the warning. And I'll be keeping an eye out for your findings. Thanks for being the guinea pig.

@sabai why don’t you just ignore geoffkait’s comments? The back and forth between the two of you is filling a lot of threads with bickering. I know he ’started it’ but why not just finish it?

I do appreciate your on topic posts, though. To make your non Ozzy resonators, did you stick with similar sizes and find materials you found superior, or are they​ similar in concept only, with different materials, sizes and geometries?

I'm interested to hear how your experiments turn out. As soon as a saw what these things are, my first thought was that there should be different sizes for different frequencies and their harmonics.

@toolbox149 - thanks! I'm definitely interested in your findings.

Yeah, I'm at a loss, though I've spent maybe 10 minutes thinking about it. My only guess is that it relates to the electromagnetic radiation spectrum. As far as I know, that's the only thing at high enough levels to be worth trying to attenuate, as well as being able to pass through walls and refrigerators 

Agreed. Though, intellectually I have a hard time being open to something if I don't at least have some sort of understanding of the mechanism at work. 

Great. Thank you again. Those look even better than the fly tying supplies! 

@jkbtn  Thank you, that's a great find. Did you order the 14mm size?

Cosmic microwave background radiation?
Thermal infrared?

I love pictures. I'll even take a line drawing. No need to color it.

So now I'm confused. Photons are the carriers of EM waves, so if we're talking about an EM radiation with wavelengths 3 - 25 mm, how are the photons at rest?

Ok, so I’m not confused. My understanding of physics isn’t a total wreck. So, jeez, what waves are we dealing with here then? What are they classified as?

They're electromagnetic, I'm just curious about what type based on your wavelength description. And also curious how that would affect sound.

You guys just made me actually chuckle. Thanks.

I finally got the brass bowls in the mail. I put them in some 3/8" copper plumbing caps.. tight fit, had to use a bench vice to push the bowl into the cap.

Gotta say, I was very sceptical about these HFTs, DIY or not, but they do seem to have an effect. I have lots of experimenting​ to do.

Geoffkait, you did refer to a wavelength range a bunch of posts back. I'm not about to wade through all of the bickering you and Sabai do to find it, but I believe you said 1/8" - 3"

I can't tell if I understand what the dickens you're talking about. I feel like I do, but then you make comments that make me question if I do. So then I think you may be assuming things about my knowledge.

I understand waves. I understand they can travel through different forms of matter and energy. I understand that certain wavelengths and their multiples are affected by the dimensions of structures. So, what am I missing? Or am I just not putting the pieces together correctly?

Toolbox - will do, though I won't be able to evaluate the sound with the resonators on the wall behind my speakers because of the layout of my room.. there's a doorway directly to the right of my right speaker. I could try a resonator on the door, but the lack of symmetry could very well negate this placement.

I won't have time until tonight or tomorrow. Fun experiment though, I'll happily report back!

@geoffkait thanks! I'll play around with those.

A few other things: I don't expect everyone's soundstage size to match me. Perceived distances are there for more accurate comparison.

My system:
Dared MC7-P tube preamp
Ghent audio class D monoblocks
Rega P3 (old P3) with exact cartridge
RBH 1266se-r speakers

I forgot my youngest has a half day today, so I didn't get to do quite the lengthy listening session I wanted. I used one track that I love (Hazey by Glass Animals) and use consistently as a gauge for the effect of changes to my system.

Here are my notes (never took notes while listening before. Interesting):

None: soundstage extends 30' back, 25' wide , vocalist is 15' back

HFTs just inside speakers: treble is more crisp, better separation of sounds, vocalist further back 25-30' now, soundstage and center are elevated, mids are smoother, soundstage isn't wider, but seems more open

HFTs as above+on front of speakers: more clarity in highs, sounds extend out into the room, widening of the soundstage by 10', soundstage shifted forward-vocalist is 20' but the whole soundstage begins well in front of the speakers now and seems to float in the room. Mids are not much different than above.

HFTs as above+2 higher on back wall: vocalist is back to 25-30', soundstage opened upwards as though a low ceiling were replaced with a big dome, width did not change. Treble seems a bit more relaxed, less in your face, like it has more room, mids seem slightly smoother.
HFTs on inner side of speakers: treble is reduced from above, mids more compressed. Soundstage is deep, vocalist is back 25-30', but it's narrow and barely extends outside the speakers. A mild tunnel effect (without reverb, of course).

HFTs on outer side of speakers: highs are very detailed and spacious, mids more open, very wide soundstage extending well outside the speakers. The depth hasn't increased, though, so the soundstage feels stretched out horizontally. A translucent wall of sound effect.

I'm sensing a pattern..

Did I kill this thread? Oops!

Beautiful. It’s funny, I’ve been doing loads of outside work too.. ahh spring. When everything needs to be done NOW!

Looking forward to your report.

Great write up!

I'm going to have to play with the effects of placement on frequency. I have noticed a subtle shift in which frequencies seem more prominent since I've installed these crazy little things. 

I think putting them lower is where I need to head.. thanks again for the detailed write up. You definitely went more in depth than I..

Jkbtn - yeah, it’s a very subtle effect, much less noticeable than cable changes. If I had paid serious money for these, I’d be not very happy, or telling myself they work better than they do. Though maybe the official ones work better. Though I’m sceptical. Very sceptical.

I agree they are fun to make, and I’m content with their performance relative to my time and money outlay.

Toolbox - I'm interested to hear your results with the different sizes/weights.. thanks again.

Toolbox - I used the brass 'bowl' beads inserted into 1/4" copper pipe caps. They press fit. I used a because vice to push them together.

sorry, it was 3/8" copper caps.  and these are the cones i used: http://www.ebay.com/itm/302130537660?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=600948813663&ssPageNam...

they're for making jewelery.

Not similar, exactly the same. I didn't want a thousand different pieces that didn't fit into one another laying around, so I used his info to good effect. I bought a 1/4" copper cap yesterday, I'm going to use my calipers to measure the ID and see if I can find those same brass 'bowl' beads in the appropriate size. I like the press fit. But I'd like to go smaller and see what they sound like.. 

If you like, I'd be happy to send you a bunch of completed pieces. I have a whole lot of those brass bowls, and copper caps are easy enough to come by. 
It'll save you some time and put those brass beads to good use.

Low post-count trolls, come to save us from ourselves. Hallelujah! I can hear the temple bells chiming!

@folkfreak just ignore this guy. He has 27 posts and does nothing but tell us all how gullible we are. 

Hey, no worries and no hurries. Jkbtn, I’m sorry for being condescending. I have no problem with you not hearing a difference and moving on. But attacking products as snake oil that you’ve never tried, or assuming that, because you didn’t hear a difference, they don’t work and the rest of us are fools is a bit condescending to us.

I was sceptical of cables and outlets. When I heard the difference they made, I decided to not attack things that I may find ridiculous any more. I simply decide if I want to try them, then decide if they work for me. If not, I’ll share my experiences. But I certainly won’t go on a mission to save everyone from snake oil.

Toolbox - i just looked at the pics of your resonators. It's funny, I just went to Lowes last night and bought 3/8" OD compression caps and made some resonators with them as bases instead of the 3/8" copper pipe caps. It looks like you are using the same thing! I think I like the sound better with the brass compression caps. Plus, they look better. Ha! The difference in ours is that I crush the brass beads/bowls into the caps using a bench vice, instead of gluing..

Interested to read what you heard!

Toolbox - I posted some pics of my resonators on my system page. I filed the bowls down so they are flush with the copper caps. They look better and sound the same. I think they sound slightly better, but I think that’s completely expectation bias. I’ll get a few more copper caps and make some glue in resonators and report back. I think I’m single handedly depleting Lowes’ stock of 3/8" copper caps!

What’s blowing my mind with these resonators is how effective they are. I was incredibly sceptical. But man, they’ve helped open up the soundstage loads. And, more importantly and surprisingly, they’ve solved a massive resonance problem I had. My left wall is half floor to ceiling glass doors and half large window. That’s a lot of glass. But our design choices preclude heavy curtains, or, really, curtains of any sort. With my current setup of 18 HFTs, the resonance in the high mids and up is gone. Nice!

Tom - I have a couple mounted on the wall behind my speakers, pointing towards the listening position. I think, because my speakers are relatively close to my wall, the resonators work well on the speakers and rack pointing towards the wall. It seems to push the soundstage back. But I need to experiment more. Mostly with a​ SPL meter, as Geoff has suggested..

Toolbox - thanks! What the resonators sound like is definitely more important though​.
As for my pre, it sounds great too. :-) Under the pre are some feet I made from large copper pipe caps. I picked them up when buying caps for the resonators. I’m waiting on some brass tipped wooden cones to use instead, the copper legs were an experiment to see if solid feet would sound better than the stock rubber feet.. they do!

Damn toolbox, you are one productive human! This thread has become quite the treasure trove of info. Since you seem to rate the version of the resonators I’m using the lowest, I’m going to pick up some heavy brass caps today and make some using those. I’ll still go the press fit route and may try the glue ins later.

@ozzy I haven’t tried them on top of the speakers yet. I’ll do that. As for the bb or crystal, I’m assuming you glue them in?

Crystals. Ha. We’re getting all new agey! What’s next? Dream catchers? Ooh, that’s not a bad idea for diffusion...

So.. crystals. Does the atomic crystalline structure matter? What about the actual shape of the crystal? Yours are pebbles, so I'm assuming you've found they don't need to be shaped like crystals.. but we all know what happens when you assume. Ha!

What about size? And what is the mechanism they work through? 

I have a feeling I'm not getting straight answers to any of these questions. :-P

@geoffkait my questions weren’t snarky. Those are actual questions I have. My statement that I won’t get straight answers is based on my past interactions with you and was meant to be playful, not critical.

Toolbox - yeah, that link didn’t work for me either. For my heavier resonators, I’ve been using a similar brass cap that is shorter. That way there depth of the resonators is similar and the only difference is the base. I posted a pic of the heavier resonator on my system page.

@ozzy I tried a couple on top of the speakers and gave it a quick, non critical listen last night. Initial impressions are favorable!

Geoff - You did. I checked the link and you provide loads of info. Sorry, I should have checked your site. I’m so used to manufacturers who don’t actually get into the science and just make claims on their sites.

@ozzy I like the resonators on top of the speaker cabinets. They seem to make the ceiling disappear. Thanks for the tip.

Toolbox - I made 10 of the heavier bottom resonators. There's a pic of one on my system page. I was able to press fit them in using a hex socket to push them in and make them expand enough to stay put, even after I had to forcefully yank the socket out.

The sound is different.. the dimensions of the soundstage are the same, but the heft or weight of the sound is greater. Mids and bass are tighter and clearer. I'll use the copper based ones around the room as keep the heavy brass bottoms on my speakers and rack. Thanks for suggesting that base. And I misread your reviews.. the other resonators I made were tied for second. I was wondering why I was liking them so much and if the other base could really be that much better. 

This has been fun! We're such dorks.

Sabai - I've two resonators on the back of my speakers, one on the outer side as one on the top. I've ordered the brass bowls in a smaller size to make smaller resonators. We'll see where those end up..

That’s great to hear! (See what I did there?) It really is quite amazing that these tiny little things actually make a difference.. thanks for starting this thread. I was interested in DIY HFTs, but couldn’t find anything on the web. Then this lovely thread popped up that same week. Talk about good timing!

I’ve begun to put my resonators in hidden spots around my room where I notice a bit too much sound pressure from low frequencies or audible ringing from highs and they are definitely helping dissipate the problems

Sakso - the cones you ordered are 9.5mm in diameter. That equals 3/8". The copper pipe caps from the hydraulic/plumbing supply stores are sized by their internal diameter. So the 3/8" pipe caps should do nicely.

Have fun!

Team effort!