Placement tips for Synergistic Research HTFs

Good for you!

toolbox149

Try these bell-shaped brass cones. All you need to do is to place the bell into a 3/8" copper cap by hammering it gently. NO need for glue or any other adhesives. Tight and secure! And it makes a very nice resonator cup. You will know how wonderfully it resonates (when whistling into it). It will cost you about $1 per resonator cup ($0.25 per the bell and $0.70 per the copper cap).  http://www.ebay.com/itm/302130537660?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=600948813663&ssPageNam...

@jkbtn  Thank you, that's a great find. Did you order the 14mm size?

Yes, I did. It takes about 2 weeks to arrive (if you live in the USA).
You should have the measurements of 14.7mm (the base diameter of the copper cap) x 17.5mm (top to bottom of the assembled resonator cup).

Great. Thank you again. Those look even better than the fly tying supplies! 

toolbox149,

Thanks for this link -- never seen these before. Now we're getting creative! As I have been saying for a long time, what have you go to lose by letting your imagination run away with you for a while? $1 apiece. This may not please some audio makers, but many of us do not have the money to throw at their expensive resonators, and many of us balk at spending the outlandish prices they are asking, even if we can afford them. Let's keep this coming.

I’m sure they don’t mind you ripping off their ideas. Especially when you're thinking of commercializing it.

Jkbtn, Toddverrone, Ozzy & all;

Thanks for the info. Since they're so inexpensive I ordered three of the sizes. The 10mm, 12mm &14mm sizes. 14mm - those are huge! Easily more than a half inch wide! I can see why you would need a 3/8" copper cap. Did you notice if the size of your resonators impacts different frequencies than other resonators? I'm wondering if something that big might have a greater effect on lower frequencies. On the other hand, could their size allow them to help bring out higher frequencies without adding harshness? Do you have other sizes and/or types of resonators?

I was all pumped yesterday because I was finally getting my 1/8" brass caps. Unfortunately, 1/8" brass caps I got are still too large for 1/4" fly fishing cones. I also have a bunch of different kinds of cones ordered, that are larger than 1/4". Hopefully, one of those will fit the brass caps better. All I know is after this experimentation is through, I'm going to have to take up fly fishing.

I was also really hoping that my SR HFTs would have arrived this last weekend. It would have been nice to play with them for an entire weekend before trying alternatives. Unfortunately, the HFTs didn't arrive until Monday. I've always been too curious to wait, so even without the proper parts to assemble some Ozinators I forged ahead and created a bunch of alternative resonators.

I bought some 3/8" & 1/2" wood "buttons" (that's the actual name - button). These wooden buttons look like small, low-rise mushroom heads that are cut off with only about 1/4" of the attached stem remaining. As you may remember I have purchased three sizes of fly fishing cones. I bought the 1/4" cones (the large size) recommended by Ozzy, plus a pack of small sized cones and a pack of extra small sized cones. For the 1/4" cones I bought a package of "linoleum nails" (size 16 x 5/8" long). I used a 1/16" drill and drilled a pilot hole straight down, through the middle of a 1/2" mushroom head and with the aid of a small hammer plus some carpenters counter-sinks I used a linoleum nail to go through the hole of the cone into the drilled hole of the button and securely fastened the cone to the top of the button. When the cone is fastened tight against the top of the button, about 3/8" of the nail will stick out through the bottom of the button. You can either grind that off or use it to attach the resonator to your wall. The nail is so small that pulling the resonator back
out of the wall will leave no noticeable hole. (Before assembly, you can also paint the wood button the same color as your wall so it will be hardly noticeable when in place).

For the small and extra small sized cones I used a similar cone fastening technique, only I used the smaller 3/8" wood buttons. I bought a pack of Wire Brads (size 19 x 1/2" long) and used a 1/16" drill to drill a pilot hole down into the button. With this size brad you can only start the pilot hole - do not drill all the way through the button. The 1/16" drill hole is bigger than the brad so if you drill all the way through, the brad won't hold the cone tight to the button. Only start the hole, drilling down no more than 1/4". Using a small hammer and carpenters counter-sinks, I was able to fasten the cone tight against the button.

To attach them to the walls I used a little pushing force and then finished with the carpenters counter-sinks to drive in the part of the nail sticking out of the bottom of the button, thus securing the resonator to the wall. For any non-wall application I'm going to grind off the part of the nail that sticks out of the bottom of the button, pull the brad and the cone out from the button, and then coat the brad with superglue and reassemble. Then I'll just use my Blue Sticky Stuff to attach them.

This actually isn't a lot of work if you have the tools. Outside of a drill and a bench grinder (which aren't really expensive) everything is low cost and all can be purchased at a big-box store. The buttons will be found in the same area as wooden dowels and small wooden decorative trim pieces. The #19 brads and the #16 nails will be in the nail and screws dept., and a package of three different sized carpenters counter-sinks can be found in the tools dept. for under $8.

So OK, OK, how do they sound? Well, I finished about 16 of the regular cone size resonators, about 10 of the small and 6 of the extra small. In my listening room I have corner bass traps at the top and the bottom of all four corners. They are approx. 18" wide by 16" tall. I started by listening to a couple of songs to get my ears ready. Stopping the music I then attached 8 of the regular sized resonators, one on each side of the 4 bottom bass traps, about 12" up from the floor. With just these 8 cones in place, I replayed the last song.   Whoa! While these 8 didn't do much to my soundstage they sure defined my bass response. As an ex bass player I can appreciate a more accurate bass signal so this was a delight. I would say these resonators had about 2/3 of the effect as putting in the bass traps.
Now I had a little more bass than I would like, so on went more of the resonators. Using some of the standard, suggested placements for these kind of tweeks I added 12 more of the resonators on the front wall, the back wall, side walls and 8 more on the sides and tops of all four of my Magnepans.

Now I had a positive improvement on the entire frequency spectrum. The bass was no longer drowning out the rest. The biggest improvement, for me, is that the individual instruments are much more clearly defined and because of that the individual parts are more separate, identifiable, and remain defined. Even complex music now has a reduced tendency to have individual parts sometimes blend together into mush. And this was without using any of the SR HFT suggested placements. I was waiting for the HFTs to arrive.

On Monday, when the 15 HFTs finally arrived I was able to add them to all the HFT recommended spots. With the HFTs in place the soundstage became more exact. Instruments were now much more firmly in one place. This has been somewhat difficult for my quadraphonic system. While the focus of the individual instruments became tighter and more clear I did not notice a big change in soundstage width or height, but since my quad system already has the soundstage and ambiance nailed perfectly (IMHO) I was glad they didn't change much. The only change I did notice was the stage and especially the singer moved closer to me - not something I want. Instead of sounding like I'm in the 30th row of a larger concert hall, which I love, it now sounds like I'm in the 15th row. This might be because I'm playing the music just a touch louder, making vocals sound more immediate. I think I can fiddle with things and get back to my preferred seat in the 30th row.

(Ed. Note - Warning My first degree was an associate degree in music and while my principal instrument was the bass I had studied and was continuing toward my bachelors at the Wisconsin Conservatory of Music focused on composition and arranging. I say this so you'll know, I LOVE detail in music. I love all the different timbers, attacks, phrasings and vocal inflections I can possibly get. You may not like this much detail in your life, soooo YMMV.

I used all three sizes of my resonators and 15 HFTs. With all of them in place my initial impression is that the sound is fuller, crisper, more robust (in a good way), more immediate, and much more defined than before. Meanwhile, although I really appreciate the effect these had on my low and mid range frequencies, the upper frequencies became a bit too brittle for me. Not harsh, but instruments and vocals had a bit too much sharpness and lost a little musicality.
Playing with the locations of the resonators and HFTs I found that moving them lower diminished the harshness of the upper frequencies. Moving a few of the high ones to lower positions reduced the upper harshness to where I started to enjoy the music more. I still have more tweeking to do in this area, but my impression is moving these pieces around may make it possible to ultra-fine tune your listening experience in order to hit that perfect position between detailed but not sweet enough, and sweet but not detailed enough. I think I'll be able to come very close to that sweet spot.

A couple of requests - does anyone have any suggestion as to any resonator position that will appear to push my soundstage back away from me? Also, can I attach pictures to any of my messages somehow, or do I have to post them in the system picture area?

Meanwhile, the Postman just delivered a package that contained the extra-large cone heads I ordered. These fit Ozzy's 1/8" brass cap very well. So, the heck with all this writing. I have some Ozinators to build.

Toolbox

"Since they're so inexpensive I ordered three of the sizes. The 10mm, 12mm &14mm sizes. 14mm - those are huge! Easily more than a half inch wide! I can see why you would need a 3/8" copper cap. Did you notice if the size of your resonators impacts different frequencies than other resonators? I'm wondering if something that big might have a greater effect on lower frequencies. On the other hand, could their size allow them to help bring out higher frequencies without adding harshness? Do you have other sizes and/or types of resonators? "

I actually went to Home Depot and measured the inner diameters of all copper caps available with my vernier caliper. Obviously the 3/8" cap was the smallest I could find and didn't want to use anything bigger than that. The ID of the 3/8" was slightly less than 14mm, then I thought a cone with the OD of 14mm would fit into the cap perfectly if I forced to insert it into the cap. And it wouldn't come out once it's tightly placed. I searched for something with the OD of 14mm. It didn't take long to find these beautiful bells. It makes beautiful timber bell sound just like the triangle percussion when tapping it with some metal object like knife. Two weeks later I got 30 bells and started assembling my DIY resonator cups that resonate magnificently. You'll be amazed. Oh and, I won't try to make any more resonator cups so I will never know your question regarding "size vs frequencies". That's it.

Geoff,
It's just self-indulgence.

Jkbtn wrote,

Geoff, it's just self indulgence.

It's self something. 😀

I just received my 1/8" brass caps from Valley Hydraulic today.
http://www.valleyhydraulic.com
My extra large fly fishing cones fit very well, but I did need to glue them together.  I got 15 cones so I glued 10 of the cones into 10 caps using 3 drops of superglue on the inside of each cap opening.  Pretty easy.  To finish the last 5 cones in the pack, I then took some Blue Stik (just like Blue Tack) and put a small ball of it in a cap and hand pressed a cone into the cap.  
I now have 10 real Ozinators held together with superglue and 5 Ozinators held together with Blue Stik.  I want to find out if the Blue Stik will have any kind of damping effect on the sound.
Right now I have five HFTs in-between my front speakers.  Two back on the rear wall, two flush with my speakers on the front edge of the metal frame of my TV and stereo rack, and one centered about a foot and a half in front of the front wall hanging on some decoration.  I can also remove two HFTs just outside the outer edge of my front speakers for the duration of my sound check.  I'll be able to compare the 5 HFTs vs. 5 Ozinators superglued vs. 5 heavier Ozinators with Blue Stik.
Jkbtn   I'm looking foreward to listening to your resonators also, but the supplier said they would arrive in two to four weeks.  So, I'm gonna play with these for now.
I'll let you know how things are sounding in a day or two.

Toolbox

geoffkait,

What happened to your group hug? Back to your good old self again. Lol. I was worried you might have had a change of heart. Lol.

abnerjack got it right when he said the following:

"Many years ago, when I was a wee lad, my family had a dog that would just not stop barking. When I asked my dad why that might be, he said that the dog barked "because he likes to hear his head roar". geoffkait is your dog. I think he has gone running back to his den, but watch out, he may jump out and bite you in the ankles at any time." geoffkait has emerged from his den, nipping at our ankles. This is better than sit-com. Lol.

toolbox149,

You could save yourself a lot of time, trouble and money by purchasing a single geoffkait original tiny resonator cup for $100 that will do the job of dozens or your tiny knock-off resonators. Lol.

Sabai, if you prefer to obsess about me rather than learn how these things work and hide your head in the sand it’s no skin off my nose. Let us know when you have 3,000 bowls on your walls.

geoffkait,

You break me up. You’re way better than sit-com! How about a group hug. Lol.

The trouble is, when you don't know what you're doing with these resonators, and just guessing, by putting a lot of them in the room, in fact a huge number according to you, you're absorbing the good along with the bad. Before you know it you're back where you started from. Which is nowhere. Sabai, look within.

geoffkait,

I guess that means Franck Tchang has no idea what he is doing -- because I am following his diagrams, to begin with. And since I have had stunning improvement in SQ with my own placements I guess that means I have ended up nowhere -- just as you predicted. Keep it coming. Lol. 

geoffkait,

With all the great advice you have to give you must be overworked filling orders for your $100 original tiny resonator cups. You'd think such a busy fellow would be preoccupied with business instead of pontificating on the forum. Lol.

I get the best effect by putting my resonators on the front of my speakers. I also use them on many room treatment devices and the results are stunning. But you need to experiment a lot to find the best placement since some placements can actually have a negative effect on SQ.

Ozzy;
Thanks for the encouragement.  This is great fun!   Also, my sound is getting better.

You mentioned this tip a while back and I've kept the advice in the back of my mind ever since.  Two nights ago, while experimenting with your speaker placement advise, I happened upon a variation which might work out to be a game changer for some of the other readers.  It was a fantastic "Ah-ha" moment for me and is becoming a keystone component of the way I use these things.  I'm working though my idea and should have the advise ready to go soon.

BTW   The Ozinators really sound great!

Thanks,
Toolbox

A quick update,

I am totally sold on the Ozinators, and recommend you purchase the following components and sizes if you want to build some for yourself.

For the caps I went to:
valleyhydraulic.com
Brass 1/8" Female Pipe Cap
Our Products: Brass Fittings > Brass Pipe Fittings > Brass Caps and Plugs
http://www.valleyhydraulic.com/store/pc/Brass-1-8-quot-Female-Pipe-Cap-p1266.htm
They cost about $ .58 each with discounts for larger quantities. Plus shipping.

For the cones I Google:
Hareline Alaska Brass Cone - and buy them wherever they are in stock. They come in packs of 15 for $4.50 plus shipping.
These are 3/8" cones.   Don't bother with any smaller cones.
I'll be testing out some slightly larger cones in a few weeks but these work extremely well.

There are two ways to attach the cones into the caps. My preference goes to supergluing them together. Three little drops around the outer edge of the cap opening - then push the cone down & you're done. The other way is to insert a small ball of Blue Stik/Blue Tak into the cap and push the cone down into the cap.

The superglue models produce a lighter, more airy sound, the Blue Stik models have less pronounced highs which some might find beneficial.

I'll have more about this in a few days.

Enjoy!
Toolbox

Oh, I forgot.   For the superglue I used a small bottle of Gorilla Gel Superglue.  Very easy to use.

Toolbox

If you follow Franck Tchang's diagrams regarding the high placement locations you may get good results. Regarding cones, it may be hard to the 10mm x 12mm beading cones that I mostly use. But this style on Ebay also works well for many locations. They protrude from the copper caps, but that is not a problem.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/20mm-Bali-Style-100-Solid-COPPER-Fancy-Handmade-HONEYCOMB-CONE-Cap-Beads-16p...

Typo above ... this should read "... it may be hard to find ... "

Thanks.
The Hareline Alaska Brass cones I mentioned are 9.5mm cones, which fit very well into the 1/8" caps. Not so well that they stick all by themselves. You will still have to glue them, but the cone edge is just a little bigger than the cap opening and the two pieces make an excellant match.
I have some larger cones on the way, but the Alaska Brass cones I mentioned sound really good and they are easy to find.  If you order them they will probably end up delivered within 3-4 days.  The caps took 4-5 days to arrive.  
The edge of the cones do protrude from the caps by about 1/8" but as you say, no problem. They sound fantastic.  
I'm currently experimenting with the 9.5mm cones mounted in slightly smaller bases and I've also built some mini-Ozinators using 1/4" or 8mm cones in brass compression sleeves.

Toolbox

Arggggggh!
I received the remaining parts and assembled a large number of Ozinators held together with superglue and with Blue Stik/Blue Tak. So I am all ready to start the big experiment, started turning on the components, and somehow blew the fuse for my preamp. I don't have a spare handy so I had to order another fuse and use a different fuse in the meantime. The big problem is my set can't possibly sound the way I had it set up, so I won't be able to make any evaluations and adjustments until the replacement arrives and I get it burned in.
One thing I can mention is that ALL of these transducers/resonators alter the sound produced by my stereo. I, for one, ended up with way more bass than before requiring that I take steps to reduce the volume of the lower frequencies.
Also, the upper frequencies were more pronounced requiring adjustments in the resonator placements as well as adjustments to my equipment.
The end result of both of these outcomes is my midrange got buried. I had to boost the upper midrange levels in order to make vocals sound natural and open, instead of veiled or pushed into the background.
I point this out because many of you are of the source-preamp-amp-speaker way of thinking, and you won't be able to make any sizeable adjustments to your set-up if these things throw your sound off.
As for me, I can make all kinds of adjustments to my sound but if you can't - tread lightly. It may be that just a very small amount of these can/will be tolerable to you.
Maybe those of you in the source-preamp-amp-speaker camp can chip in with their experiences.
In the meantime, my fuses should be here soon.

Thanks,
Toolbox.
Sent from my iPad

Ah, the old burn in predicament. I remember it well. Next stop, the waiting game. 😁

toolbox149,

Interesting that you are reporting this. The sound in my system has not been thrown off except in a minor way with a couple of placements. Easily rectified. 

You mention "transducers/resonators". Does anyone out there believe that these devices are other than resonators? A transducer "converts a signal in one form of energy to a signal in another" form [from Wikipedia]. Are these devices really on the same level as a microphone or speaker? 

The HFT X is a transducer. How do I know? Because it has a tiny speaker, you know, a transducer, mounted in it, that’s how. The real question that’s still hanging out there is, are the tiny little bowls something else besides resonators? From what I know and from what Franck Tchang says, the answer is .....drum roll...YES. Isn’t it obvious? So, here's a question, what's the diff between resonator, transducer and radiator?

geoffkait,

Drum roll ... Lol. There is a tiny grill with tiny crystals in HFT-X. But is this actually a tiny speaker? There is no product information mentioning this on the SR site. I would be very glad to see the documentation -- not just an affirmation from a third party. Oh, by the way, nowhere on his site does Franck Tchang mention the word "transducer". Isn't it obvious? Lol.

OK, I’ll ask again. Transducer, radiator, resonator. What’s the difference? Furthermore, Franck Tchang goes out of his way to point out that the radiation of the tiny little bowls - as measured on a spectrum analyzer - extends up to Gigshertz range AND is NOT distance dependent. Have you been able to completely ignore those statements? What in the wide world of sports is going on here?! Hel-loo! And if these tiny little transducers, radiators whatever are radiating acoustic energy into the room wouldn’t that produce more information than is actually on the recording?

goeffkait,

Hel-loo! Lol. You mean you don't know the difference between transducers, radiators and resonators? Isn't it obvious that not being distance dependent is not the definition of a transducer? And can one really talk about radiating acoustic energy with additional acoustic information being the outcome? Hel-loo! Lol.

Sabai, thanks for the excellent non-answer! Here’s a little hint, since I’m in a generous mood: what travels at the speed of light, doesn’t attenuate with distance (doesn't obey the inverse square law) and has wavelengths on the order of 1/8" to 1"? Answers at 11

Cosmic microwave background radiation?
Thermal infrared?

toddverrone
Cosmic microwave background radiation?
Thermal infrared?

Whoa! What? Wow! You're SO close! Shall I draw you a picture?

I love pictures. I'll even take a line drawing. No need to color it.

😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑

This is what photons look like when they’re at rest.

So now I'm confused. Photons are the carriers of EM waves, so if we're talking about an EM radiation with wavelengths 3 - 25 mm, how are the photons at rest?

geoffkait,

You stated, "Sabai, thanks for the excellent non-answer!" You’re welcome ... to read my answer again. You will see that it addressed the illogic of your statements. When you don’t like what you hear you call it a non-answer and neatly sidestep the content. Very clever.

You stated, "Here’s a little hint, since I’m in a generous mood ... " How about a group hug after you climb down from your pedestal. Lol.

😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 Photons moving at full speed

toddverrone
So now I’m confused. Photons are the carriers of EM waves, so if we’re talking about an EM radiation with wavelengths 3 - 25 mm, how are the photons at rest?

They’re obviously not at rest. But seeing them *at rest* is the only way you can see them, no?

pop quiz: if photons have zero rest mass, Mo, does that mean they have mass when they’re moving? If so, how can they have mass when they’re moving at light speed?

toddverrone,

It is indeed possible to see photons in motion. This new technology will explain it for you.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-12/trillion-frame-second-camera-captures-photons-moving-through-space-slow-mo

You asked, "if photons have zero rest mass, Mo, does that mean they have mass when they’re moving?

What logic leads you to ask this? If photons have no mass that means they have no mass under all conditions. They do not suddenly acquire mass then magically lose that mass. This defies logic -- unless there are laws at work of which I am unaware.

Sabai wrote,

"...unless there are laws of physics of which I am unaware."

Bingo! Weren’t you the one who said, "I really don’t care how something works as long as it works."? OK, so I admit it was a trick question since photons are never at rest and MUST always travel at light speed c (as Einstein predicted). Also, according to the Lorentz transformations mass becomes infinite at the speed of light c. So the only way a non-stationary photon can have mass is if energy is equivalent to mass. E=mc2. Which of course it is.

geoffkait,

Bingo ... the fish took the bait ... and is once again eager to bestow a gift upon the forum that even Einstein could not conceive (unless he can document where Einstein made this declaration) -- The Law of the Transmutational Nature Photons -- brought to us by the world’s most renowned expert on this unfathomable subject -- right here on the forum -- after a big forum group hug. Lol.

geoffkait,

A trick question (I admit) -- how come you’re so smart and everyone else is so stupid? You don't have to provide an answer. We already know. Lol. I understand why you hang around here all the time strutting your stuff. And photons have nothing to do with it. Don't worry. I won't tell a soul. The forum is the best free marketing tool a pebble salesman could ever wish for. Your tiny colored pebbles must be selling like hot cakes. Lol.

Sabai, are u obsessed with me or what? Please keep the personalities down to a dull roar. You’re the only one here name calling. Oh, one more thing, if you’re going to use my name in your posts would it be too much to ask you to spell it correctly?

Have a nice day,

Geoff Kait
machina dramatica
home of brilliant pebbles

geoffkait,

No need to be so touchy. Is your forum ID not geoffkait? Did I get the spelling wrong? Oh I see, we are no longer allowed to use our forum ID here anymore ... you have officially declared. Well, in this case, you had better stop calling me Sabai and toddverrone by his ID, etc.

Perhaps you should consider another line of work where your style will not be cramped by inconvenient comments from other forum members. Lol.

Ah, name calling, a subject you seem to know something about ... calling fellow members "knuckleheads, little old ladies, nerds", etc. Have you forgotten which pot is calling the kettle black here? How about another warm group hug ... Lol.

geoffkait,

Maybe will should all be required to mention your company name, as well, when we post here -- as part of The Big Group Hug -- with the ultimate intention of helping needy forum members. Lol.

Ok, so I’m not confused. My understanding of physics isn’t a total wreck. So, jeez, what waves are we dealing with here then? What are they classified as?

toddverrone

"Ok, so I’m not confused. My understanding of physics isn’t a total wreck."

I’ll be the judge of that.

"So, jeez, what waves are we dealing with here then? What are they classified as?"

Apparently they should be classified Top Secret. Lol Well, let’s see, we know they’re not acoustic waves that I’m talking about here because Franck Tchang measured effects up to 3 GHz or whatever on his spectrum analyzer. Obviously acoustic waves are part of what’s going on with the tiny little bowls but that’s not the whole story. That’s why we’ve been discussing this particular thing for what, 3 weeks? Has it been longer? I kind of lost track of time. Lol Actually I already went into detail of the type of waves I’m referring to but I guess I didn’t realize how difficult it would be to get through. Lol They’re not gravity waves because as we’ve seen those wavelengths are super-long. They aren’t waves of joy, judging from Sabai’s reaction. Lol

😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀