Lots of interesting stuff here.
Good report on the Bel Canto black....expect it will soar in performance with additional time......break-in on these Class D modules is no joke.
Going back a bit to your request for a DAC to try....I suggest a Mytek Manhattan II.....absolutely outstanding as a DAC and Pre also.
Regarding the Salon 2 comments, if they sounded broken, I would suggest that they likely were broken!
I have Salon2's so am obviously biased, but think I can weigh in here as I have heard ricred1's properly set up PL 500's for an extended listen on two occasions.
The 500's sound great...they have a VERY VERY big sound which I think would be hard to duplicate. They are also very smooth with no listening fatigue.
That said, properly setup Salon2's are absolutely in the same league....they lack the "huge" effect you get the with the PL500's but also bring other things to the table like tremendous detail, realism, articulation, and imaging. And bass? Loads. Bass response actually = room acoustics.....I am sure any loudspeaker made can have the bass sucked out of it due to sub-optimum room acoustics.
My $0.02....only worth the time it took me to type.
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whitecameross, Please consider the AQUA La Scala II or Formula, and Denafrips Terminator in your DAC search. |
+1 on most interesting thread. |
Then perhaps what I hated about the salons was that they are too much of a pain in regards to bass. They are too picky about the room I suppose but let’s be honest here, who has an amazing room here ? Maybe 5% ? The rest of us have to deal with decent rooms so you have to find a speaker that simply wows you in your room. We can’t build a whole new room
to make speakers sound perfect so we bring speakers that sound great given your listening area. For me the salons didn’t have the same HUGE soundstage of the platinums. They didn’t have the same massive slam either. They only had great detail and a big sweet spot but I don’t recall anything else about them that was spectacular. |
I currently have the MC452 and use my space as both home theater and two channel audio. Im trying to see whether the MX160 can suffice or will I need a seperate preamp for two channel audio.
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@whitecamaross I noticed in a previous post you had the McIntosh MX160. What were your thoughts a processor/preamp? Music and movies? |
The mx160 is the best processor under 20k retail. Only the datasat 20 kills it. It’s awesoke as a preamp as well but no it won’t best or equal a preamp like an audio research ref 6, or luxman, simaudio, and others.
Lastly, if you don’t have speakers that can let you hear the difference then it won’t matter. |
Update:
i started to listen to the luxman with the LOUDNESS button engaged and now things are getting more interesting. It’s certainly much closer in terms of sound quality and I will give the luxman a slight edge with the loudness engaged. Things get bigger and more pronounced. |
Just had the wife sit down and listen to 3 different songs on both systems and she said the Belcanto does beat the luxman but it’s not a slam dunk. That’s also how I feel FYI. |
WhiteCamaroSS, knowing Jon Stronczer and his past achievements, and knowing a little bit about Black System internals, I venture to say that right now your demo Black is still very far from delivering its true potential. If you have the patience to let it grind along for a few weeks to normalize its behavior -- white or pink noise is just fine for the purpose, you might be amazed at what it is capable of.
Regards, G. |
I was amazed two nights ago with so much detail to be honest. Right now, today, I am 55% sure I’ll keep the black system and 45% that I’ll keep the luxman.
One thing I did notice was that I felt like the black system swallows my mind and ears with so much sound. I also found myself transporting myself to different places while I heard it. Very weird but I did experience that.
I would like to test cabling with it too. |
Happy New Year! whitecamaross |
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Wow appreciate your opinion! I will def take your advice and get the processor just will probably get a pre-amp later down the line. Also for speakers I am using the Golden Ear Triton Reference.
Any preamps that match well with MC452 that you have heard the combo? @whitecamaross
Once again thank you! |
Ok guys, after a few days of constant listening and going back and forth, I feel pretty good about my verdict. I’ve heard countless songs, matched volume levels, etc. I have spent lots of long nights and plugged and unplugged cables like you can’t imagine. I’ve tested many combinations this year; from pass labs set ups (xp30/350.8, xa200.5), Hegel h30, audio research ref 6/gs150, mark Levinson no52/536 Monos) and many others that don’t come to me right now. I’ve spent a ridiculous amount of money all because I want to bring you all my personal journey and my opinions with things that I’ve actually owned and compared in my listening area. All because of my desire to discover the next best thing.
With that said, there’s no doubt in my mind that my top pick for 2017 is the Belcanto black system.
It wins my top award for this year because it gets the job done the right away. It’s simple to use, zero issues, no drama, it’s really easy to pick it as anyone’s reference system. This could be the standard when trying to mix and match solid state pieces.
The luxman gets really close in many ways but it still lacks those extra ounces of depth and width that I the Belcanto has.
Again, if you are not in this hobby to do what I have been doing for the past few years and just want something that sounds outstanding from the get go, this IS THE SYSTEM FOR YOU.
My 2018 reference set up is officially the Belcanto black system. Going forward in 2018 I will keep trying solid state pieces and see how close they get to this Belcanto. Will any of my future set ups surpass it ? Tie it ? Stay tuned... 2018 will answer many questions :) |
Hello
de PORTUGAL
Happy New Year 2018 ! whitecamaross
Happy New 2018 to all.
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To add to the car analogy, I just traded my 2010 997 Carrera for 2018 Chevy Tahoe Z71 Black Edition. Went to couple of ski trips with it and I am very happy with it. What is wrong with me? I am sure things will change when the summer rolls in. I believe the best solution is to have both, for different purposes. Same with the amplifiers..
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Any preamps that match well with MC452 that you have heard the combo?
c52 with mine. |
sell your mc452 and buy a mark levinson 585 integrated and you're done...however, If you are a fan of the mcintosh look then buy a mcintosh c1100 preamp. Everything that mcintosh has in terms of preampfification is subpar when compared to other offerings.
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I would much rather have the MC452 over any Levinson amp, especially the 585. The C1100 is a great preamp and it's fully balanced as well.
sell your mc452 and buy a mark levinson 585 integrated and you're
done...however, If you are a fan of the mcintosh look then buy a
mcintosh c1100 preamp. Everything that mcintosh has in terms of
preampfification is subpar when compared to other offerings.
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Having owned the 452 twice, that amp is dated and needs to be revamped. If you heard the luxman 900u, I can assure you that you would unload your McIntosh 452 within 10 seconds of listening to it. I see McIntosh amps in the same league as the Brystons, Classe, etc.
Pass labs, simaudio, Hegel are above those and if you want to elevate even further then you go for luxman, boulders, etc. The reason why I recommended the 585 is because you’ll kill 3 birds with one stone by buying it and yes it sounds really amazing. You’d need a C1100, and an awesome dac plus your 452 to best it but then you’re talking about how much money ? 3 times the money ? Far greater money.
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Outstanding! whitecamaross
good to read that you have found your reference gear.
I must inquire, did you find an Integrated amp that bested the ML No. 585?
Happy Listening!
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I don’t really venture with integrated pieces. However, it is really a great sounding piece and it’s not too much either. |
Amazing work whitecamaross and great input from all. Hopefully this forum continues into 2018...
Whitecamaross - Last summer you mentioned plans to purchase Simaudio's 870A. Did you get a chance to do some comparisons with it, and, if so, how did that amp compare overall to others? I see you enjoyed the 740P at its price point... |
I didn’t buy it but I heard it’s supposed to be amazing. That said, based on a review online, the luxman 900u is superior.
I keep getting questions on amplifiers and I keep saying the SAME THING over and over again. The luxman 900u is the best amp I have heard for under 20k. No other amp has been able to beat it in my room. No Hegel, no simaudio, no McIntosh lol, no pass labs (unless it’s the expensive xs amps or xa200s) no Classe, Bryston, Mark Levinson, etc.
This is why I have owned it 3 times! The first 2 times I sold it, it sold in one day the first one and in 3 days the second one. No major discount on current luxman pieces either. It’s a small network of dealers and they monitor their product here like hawks. Dealers get killed the minute they try to sell their product online. I’ve never seen so a strict company. If you’re waiting for a used 900u amp, you’ll have to get inline because I know of a few that are waiting for one. |
Thank you for the reply whitecamaross! I was curious as I am currently running the Sim 740P, 870A, 780D DAC combo to YG Carmel 2s (small/mid size room) and am debating whether I should switch to the Lux combo or Bel Black in search of some warmth and added soundstage without losing the current articulation and detail... Unfortunately, my dealer doesn't carry the Lux for a demo, as you note it is a small network. Thanks again for all the information you have assembled! |
Whitecamaross,
Indeed the Luxman amps are receiving very good revieuws all over. What they do good they do extremely good.
I did not heard the separates 900u, but instead one of the newer big integrates, I think it was one of the 590 models.
While it was a very pleasant and smooth sound, it was somewhat too smooth for my taste. Everything was sounding smooth, even if it was not in the recording.
It was also not the last word in resolution and dynamics.
These things came back also readily in the revieuws I read about Luxman amps, btw also in their cd-players.
I thought that the Bell Canto Black was also more dynamic in your system.
As usual system-energy is key!
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You can’t expect dynamics from a 30 watt per channel integrated. Dynamics require power and control and With 30 watts it’s just tough to ask for that.
Also, luxman isn’t known for dynamics and swings. That’s not their game. Their game is smoothness, detail, no fatigue, huge soundstage. Japanese products aren’t known for dynamics. That’s what American products are known for. |
Zprr: your simaudio is a good combo. I suggest anyone here to try the luxman pieces first before moving to a black system. |
tomorrow i will be test driving the wireworld platinum 7 speaker cables which retail for 16,000 dollars... it will be one hell of a test that i will be doing here. Has anyone heard these? |
has anyone heard the lumin s1 streamer/dac? i am curious about it and have an opportunity to grab one at a decent price. |
Thank You for the update and your hard work in 2017- whitecamaross Good to read that your Audio journey has been fruitful in search of audiophile nirvana. Which brands of cabling have you used during all of those audition/demo sessions? Happy Listening!
Staying tuned... |
i have used wireworld and straight wire. I am just having a chance tomorrow to bring the top of the line cable from wireworld home for me to audition it. i can't wait to see if indeed this is snake oil or going to a cable that expensive really transforms this set up. |
Update: The black system will ship back to my dealer. i have decided to let him get this entire thing upgraded to the latest version of hardware/software and then revisit this idea later on. I will begin this year with my luxman combo at full speed and have ordered the expensive d08u sacd/dac to see what it does to my music collection. |
I have two comments for you. I currently have the WW Gold Eclipse 7s on loan, and I have the Lumin S-1 as my digital source. I have not heard the Platinums, but the Golds are supposed to be 90% of the platinums, and the Golds are the most revealing cables i had had in my system so far.
As far as the S-1 goes, I bought it on reputation alone, and never heard it before I bought it. I bought it on here, at a good price, and when I installed it in my system the first night, it literally brought me to tears. Granted, my digital source before, was the Oppo 205, so aside from the Simaudio 380D, which I had for a while, my digital front end experience has not been all that extensive. The S-1 I will have for some time to come, the WW Golds are tormenting me. I did not want to spend this much money on SC, but they are like someone installed new tweeters in my speakers. The rest of my gear consists of McIntosh C1100 Pre, pair of 2301 amps, and Sonus Faber Stradivari speakers. I will be very curious as to what you think of the cables, and the Lumin should you pull the trigger. |
I have the Lumin A-1 and absolutely loved the App. I wanted to upgrade to the S-1 but my dealer talked me into the Emm Lab DAC X2 V2. He claimed the Emm Lab is far better than the S-1. So I have the Emm Lab connected into my A-1. As I said the Lumin App for streaming is simple easy to use and no cost like Roon. I was happy with the A-1 but like you I am in the never ending quest for greater sound.
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Just started to play music using the 16,000
dollar wire world platinum 7 speaker cable and my initial impressions will come later tonight... my first rodeo with cables of this caliber. My current cable are wire wild silver 7 cables. |
Insane sound with these cables. I can honestly say I hear a 15-20% improvement accross the board. It sounds as if my whole set up was upgraded from top to bottom. Better highs, tighter bass, bigger sound, just everything is that much better. I really didn’t believe this before but I am a believer now that when your equipment is of high caliber, cables are a must too.
everything coming out of the speakers is now even more separated and evenly distributed. Nothing is overdone or pushed forward too hard. The sound now feels as if it is also coming down from
the ceiling. The Luxman combo now sounds more focused and locked in. Just as good if not a tiny better than the black system
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My favorite on-going thread on this site. I am currently in the process of finding and upgrading to a new multi channel amp so this thread has been helpful.
Thank you very much @whitecamaross !!!
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You are in for a musical treat- whitecamaross the WW Platinum is no slouch. Are you listening to a full loom (SC, IC, PC) ? I look forward in reading more about your thoughts/impressions on this important matter. Considering your level of gear, sonic matching with cabling, is equally rewarding. Happy Listening! |
@whitecamaross - What are you using for power cords? |
I am using silver 7 power cords. Same for balanced cables. That said, I may request gold eclipse 7 xlr and speaker cables and see what happens. Im amazed at how much better this set up sounds with these cables. I didn’t expect to hear this improvement.
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It has been my experience the WW Gold gets you very close to the level of Platinum. If you want to hear a dramatic uptick in performance for short dollars, see if you can get your hands on a Furutech Flux-50 NCF http://www.furutech.com/2016/08/23/13623/It has been by far the most cost-effective tweak I have made in years! |
whitecameross, Consider contacting Leif Swanson about MasterBuilt cables, and Ozan Turan about Ansuz cables, both in the uber-fi category. Also consider Cerious Tech's new Graphene Matrix cables, new tech but not wildly expensive. |
Whitecamaross- I just discovered your thread on audiogon 2 days ago. Frankly, I have read it to completion 3 times, since! I must say you are an inspiration and a bridge builder for all. I also take what reviewers write with a grain of salt. I have reembarked on this journey, albeit, on a smaller monetary scale than yourself, 6 years ago. I happen to be a Wireworld fan also. The last 2 years I have focused on tube gear. Buying and selling equipment so I can listen with my own ears in my own home and surround myself with like minded people who enjoy listening, not reading stats. A fine bottle of wine always helps! I sold high end hifi (actually Luxman, McIntosh, B&O, M&K, et al) back in the 80’s.
As you well know, everything has changed for the better.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU for sharing your journey! Messages like these are the reason why i keep doing what i do. I appreciate your kind words and i hope you enjoy the Hegel H30 that i am shipping to you tomorrow. Guys, anytime you have feedback that is positive and constructive, it fires me up to keep doing this day in day out. Remember, i do it for pure enjoyment and also because i want to share my personal opinions on what is out there. Thank you a lot once again and stay tuned. 2018 will bring even more twists and turn that will be all for the better. I don’t know if i review 30 amps this year, but i think 20 should suffice :) lol |
Update: i will be picking up a lumin s1 and test drive it here at home. The goal will be to see how much better it is than my ps audio direct stream dac. i suspect the lumin s1 will blow away my ps audio direct stream. Just a gut feeling based on my initial research. |
Lumin s1 is in the House. I will be doing a/b comparisons between this and ps audio directstream. We shall see |
If you upgraded to Redclould, and I have not heard the Lumin S1, my money is on the PS Audio Directstream, especially with the Bridge II playing MQA. |
I sold my 1.2kws... now it’s time to decide if I should get the boulder 2060 and my ref 6 versus my luxman combo. Damn it... two people have said no don’t do it because I hate the boulder then I’ll take a very long time to sell since it’s a 250 beast that few want to deal with. I’ll go ahead and ask a few people here and see what the feeling is. Ok here we go, how many of you think the luxman combo WOULD BEAT the boulder 2060/ ARC REF6 preamp combo ?
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You know the answer whitecamaross. If the Boulder is too heavy, too hard to sell or a pain to deal with in any way, don't buy it. There are plenty of other amps out there. Maybe your swapping has run its course and you just need to listen for a while. |
