Bifwynne, Thank
you for your reply. I really do enjoy the way my system sounds. So, I guess for now I will wait until Deqx comes out with a version that an average person can adjust. |
Ozzy, I think your logic is sensible and will apply to many.
It costs (next to) nothing to 'tinker' with ideas for room treatments and most will accept the musical happiness they can obtain thereby (and I have experienced huge improvements that way); and of course we're all well aware of the potential for significant change due to the staggeringly quick evolution of digital and communication (transmission) technology. But, this conversation confirms the units do seem to offer previously unavailable, perhaps unimaginable, options to a serious music lover who wants more 'you are here' feeling. We live in exciting times don't we. |
It seems to me that the user friendliness of the DIRAC was a major reason Stereophile seemed to prefer it to the DEQX. As far as I can tell, the DIRAC might not offer the advantages of custom x-overs that the DEQX offers. For those not interested in by passing their existing x-overs, or the expense of additional amplification, there could be substantial cost savings. |
Where did you see that "Stereophile seemed to prefer it {Dirac} to the DEQX?' |
^"The best 67 audio components of 2014" |
I think you may be misinterpreting a paraphrase of my published statements. If I may, I would edit your interpretation to say: "It seems to me that the user friendliness AND COST of the DIRAC was a major reason Stereophile seemed to RECOMMEND IT OVER the DEQX."
Dirac is cheaper and easier to use but not as capable as DEQX. If DEQX made a multichannel version, I'd use it. |
^O.K., thanks for the clarification. |
Kal, does the DIRAC handle 24/192 better? |
?? DIRAC handles 24/192 just fine if your computer is up to the task. |
Just finished an hour and a half fine tuning session with Larry, the DEQXPert. At his suggestion, I move my listening couch back a little and he re-tuned my system. Definitely better. He also gave me a setting option with a slight bass boost, which is kinda nice.
I'm still a DEQX believer. I'm two thumbs up for the DEQX.
No way I could have made the fine tuning adjustments by myself.
Cheers.
BIF
|
Thanks BIF. It's great to here some detail ;) and that the experts there are of real value. What were the areas of improvement? |
Very glad Larry was able to improve things Bruce. With DEQX in circuit, even slight changes in positioning or speaker angles can have an impact, especially noticeable when you re-run a room measurement, adjust time alignment and listen to music
I noticed from the files you sent me that Larry appears to align the sub with the first impulse peak of the main speakers (step response measurements). Although many people time-align this way and it is easier to calculate, I find the result is more realistic sounding when aligning subs to the first impulse rise rather than the peaks. I believe this is also generally held to be more correct (ie Green Mountain and others) |
Ptss ... better imaging and sound stage. More pleasing presentation from a tonal perspective ... meaning less harsh sounding. Basically, Larry spent a little more time smoothing out FR kinks from room effects. He didn't touch the original time alignment adjustments.
I cannot overstate how significant room effects can be. IMO, spending a fortune on speakers will not solve problems caused by a lousy room.
Again ... I want emphasize. Larry did not adjust my speakers to be ruler flat. He further refined the "Taming of the Shrew," which is my speakers and room. Perfect -- No! Better -- Yes!! |
Bifwynne: ...He didn't touch the original time alignment adjustments... Bruce: Your previous post said you moved the couch so this will have changed the relative positions of speakers/subs and therefore alignment to some degree (we are talking milliseconds so any rearrangement will have affected this) |
Andrew (Drewan77) ... I get you point. But, Larry does this for a living and no doubt has volumes of anecdotal experiences upon which to base his judgments.
Perhaps, just for laugh and giggles, you and I can try to recheck the time alignment measurements of my speakers. We both may find it to be an interesting exercise. I don't want to mess with Larry's room EQ work though.
So far, I think the biggest bang for the buck lies with room EQ. That is what has the greatest impact on imaging and soundstage and tonal presentation.
I concede that time alignment makes for purer, more "honest" tonal reproduction, but nothing messes up what comes out of the speakers more than a screwed up FR, further twisted by room effect. IMHO. |
Bruce, I agree with you. Time alignment and room eq can be adjusted independently - whenever I have moved the listening seat slightly, it had an impact on the timing but very little on the eq and I have hardly ever changed that. If your sub sounds like it integrates perfectly and bass is natural - that is what really matters
The working DEQX file can have the time alignment tweaked (via the configurator) but eq is adjusted via the control panel and only affects the configuration if it is 'saved to DEQX' and then the original file is saved again. That's one of the features of this software, you can play about endlessly if you want and return to any previously saved version |
12-04-14: Bifwynne
So far, I think the biggest bang for the buck lies with room EQ. That is what has the greatest impact on imaging and soundstage and tonal presentation.
I concede that time alignment makes for purer, more "honest" tonal reproduction, but nothing messes up what comes out of the speakers more than a screwed up FR, further twisted by room effect. IMHO. Hey BIF. And that nails the crux of crossroad I find myself facing. Bypass the passive XO in my 3-way speakers and go with digital XO into an 8-channel DAC to time align the speakers and the subs, plus room correction with Acourate? This means do without the beloved preamp and select from a handful mostly non-audiophile 8-channel DACs... Or just use Acourate for room correction, keep the preamp in the chain and focus on upgrading my DAC...decisions, decisions! I can't remember the scope of time alignment in your system. Is it subs-to-main speakers, or are you using the active XO in the DEqX and aligned your mains drivers and also the subs? This would help put your comment above into perspective. Glad you are having such good results with the DEQX! |
Lewinskih01 .... you wrote:
"I can't remember the scope of time alignment in your system. Is it subs-to-main speakers, or are you using the active XO in the DEqX and aligned your mains drivers and also the subs? This would help put your comment above into perspective."
Yes, Larry the DEQXPert time aligned as best he could my self power sub and my front speakers. I say "as best he could" because my speakers' woofers are in opposite polarity from the tweeter/midrange. I seem to recall he had to make compromises.
My DEQX is the PreMATE. It does not have an active x-over function. The HDP-4 is the top of the line unit and it does have active x-over capability.
Now ... as regards time alignment ... I may have overstated or perhaps understated its importance. Larry did time alignment on his first pass two months ago. During the second pass the other night, he fine tuned room EQ. There were additional improvements achieved as I mentioned above.
Your question touches on the narrower point re the importance of time alignment as a stand alone attribute. I'm not sure I can honestly answer the question because Larry corrected both attributes on his first pass: time alignment AND room EQ.
I'll defer to Andrew (Drewan77). Andrew is super facile with his DEQX and can probably speak to the importance of time alignment as a stand alone attribute. I imagine he would have to do a "with" and "without" comparison.
My bottom line is this: my system sounds better WITH the DEQX in place. Larry "tamed" my speaker's time alignment shortcomings and room EQ effects. Perfect -- NO. Better - YES.
Personally, I think a "DEQX-type" unit is a must for a serious hobbyist who dropped a lot of bucks into their rig and who cares about the sound of the music playback.
I question out loud how folks who spend a small fortune on top of the line speakers can even know how good their speakers sound if they have a screwed up room. So, even if one owned time aligned speakers like Vandies or GMAs, all the time alignment in the world will not fix a screwed up room. |
Lewinskih01, If I remove the time alignment, imaging and soundstage collapses to a much flatter representation - something I hadn't fully appreciated until I included DEQX in the chain. Recordings which include original acoustics sound quite stunning when DEQX has time aligned all drivers and frequencies
For a three way system + subs you would need to add something like mini DSP for 8 channels as one DEQX unit will only cover 6 channels (ie HDP-4). Use DEQX on the main speakers where the benefits are most significant and another device to time align the subs. Alternatively, leave a passive crossover between treble-mid or mid-bass on the main speakers and use the remaining two HDP-4 channels for the subs
When an initial DEQX measurement is taken, the software will attempt to correct whatever it hears so if there is a passive crossover in the chain and any drivers are out of phase or timing, it will automatically correct that in the calibration it makes. Doing this process outdoors 'anechoically' produces the best results
Subsequent time alignment to subs and then room equalisation will enable you to remove almost all the damage done by your room so whatever speakers you listen to will perform closer to optimum, as Bruce has experienced |
question out loud how folks who spend a small fortune on top of the line speakers can even know how good their speakers sound if they have a screwed up room. So, even if one owned time aligned speakers like Vandies or GMAs, all the time alignment in the world will not fix a screwed up room.
Bifwynne Amen!! (& I have written & said such a thing before too many times to count now). Good to see Bruce echoing the same now..... here's a cut & paste from a (cheeky) post (cheeky parts scrubbed) from back in 2012 when one Audiogon member started a thread called "Room Treatment made me cry.....a little" - he had discovered the huge benefits of room treatment.... 03-26-12: Bombaywalla
Amazing and not expected, at least not this level of improvement and emotional connection.
I'm very happy for you now that you are so emotionally connected to your music during playback. Good job!
........ it's been written & said (if you attend audio shows, informal gatherings at friends' places, dealer's showrooms, etc) that the room is perhaps the most important interface to a music playback system. You could get 1 item each from every Stereophile A list OR TAS's best of the best OR from your favourite audio mag and you could connect those components together in your listening room & you will find that your sonics are not A-list at all; in fact, not even close until you treat your room. You could have trolled the A'gon archives for tomes written on this subject to find that the room is the inital/final frontier w.r.t. playback. Anyway, I/we are happy that you learnt this ......... Enjoy your music...........
Bombaywalla |
FYI:
Just got a letter to Marc Mickelson of The Audio Beat published, here:
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/letters.htm
I hope Marc gets around to reviewing the DEQX.
I can't overstate how important and decently priced this piece of kit is for one's audio toolbox. Considering what some are willing to pay for cables and other tweaks, when one considers what the DEQXC can do, it's a no-brainer decision, IMO.
Bruce |
Thanks Bif, very interesting. |
It really seems ridiculous to make a product that requires a rep to get it to work to its best. What about a power outage?
Though I think the product has merit, I will wait for a more user friendlier version. |
Power outage should not affect the DEQX which stores the information. I have disconnected mine, stored it for weeks and, upon reconnection, it ran as it was. In addition, all the information is stored on your local PC and can be uploaded to the DEQX if necessary. |
Ozzy ... hard to say what new technology will bring. At this time, unless one is very tech savvy, I think to get the most of the DEQX, one will need the help of the DEQXPert. Just too many variables and judgments in play.
Kal, you just reviewed the PreMATE. Does it have any auto adjust feature that you can push a button and the DEQX does its thing?
Even if it does, you still gotta move the speakers and mic around in order to time align your speakers.
Ozzy ... right now I admit set-up is tedious. But it only takes about 3 hours and then your done. IMO, the initial inconvenience is worth the gain.
Kal ... your thoughts?? |
Kr4, Bifwaynee,
Thanks for the responses. Its good to know that the settings will remain intact even with a power failure event.
I have no problem using a mic near the speakers to obtain the speaker characteristic settings. But, moving 215 lb. speakers is not an easy task.
I know I'm repeating myself (I'm old so its ok) I just think if a unit can be constructed that is much more user friendlier, I, and many others would probably buy it.
Are you listening DEQX ? |
My thoughts about this are in my review. ;-)
Kal |
Kal, I reread your review. Your comments are consistent with my anecdotal experience.
DEQX really needs to do a better job with a user-friendly instruction manual. Perhaps, even default "(recommended)" settings and promsst for the non-tech user.
Even still .. a great addition to the audiophile's tool box. |
I heard their room at the RMAF and do not believe DEQX is a game changer. My impression consists of a catch 22 scenario. Hotel rooms are difficult to achieve a decent sound. DEQX is suppose to correct room responses and fix this situation. The DEQX room sounded way more boomy than it should have when DEQX was bypassed - making it seem to me like they purposely made the room sound worse than it should have. It sounded slightly better with DEQX engaged, but "game changer" is a pretty strong statement, and unlike many rooms at RMAF that I enjoyed multiple visits, I had no desire to return to the DEQX room after leaving. It probably didn't help that the DEQX folks running the room were the most pushy and annoying people working the show. |
Well folks, we'll see how the DEQX works out in my room and with my speakers. The speakers (SP Tech Revelations) are too big for my room (will be moving shortly and couldn't turn down on those speakers). So I am really hoping for some real help from the room correction functionality.
Will let y'all know how the HDP-4 works out for me. |
Roscoe, an A'gon audio pal is thinking about picking up a DEQX. I'm sure he'll be quite interested in reading your comments.
I bought the PreMATE in September and am satisfied with the results.
Btw, as I am sure you know, the DEQX does BOTH room correction and time coherence alignment.
Are you planning on using the DEXPert service. I recommend that you do ... unless you are very, very technical. |
A'gon audio pal here :-)
Roscoe, congratulations on the purchase! As Bruce (Bif) indicated, I'm looking forward to reading of your experiences.
My plan is to purchase the recently released HDP-5 in March or thereabouts, although the HDP-4 would no doubt serve my purposes just as well. But I find myself unable to resist the added coolness of the touchscreen display on the -5.
Enjoy! Best regards,
-- Al
|
Ha, I wondered if Al was who you were referring to, Bruce! I've been following this thread for a while and re-read a lot of it to pass the time before my unit arrives. And I recalled Al's interest. In fact, I'd recalled that Al was interested in grabbing one of these, so I figured I'd give him first dibs on this HDP-4 if it didn't work in my system. Least I could do for all the great contributions from the great Almarg!
Yeah Al, the HDP-5's touchscreen looks mighty cool. I was a little surprised that they didn't go with the linear power supply on the HDP-5 though. Just looked at the comparison grid re: the HDP-5, are there any other substantive differences other than touch screen, internet connectivity and power supply that you've been able to find out about? |
Thanks very much, Roscoe. Yes, I noticed that the HDP-5 has the "low noise" switching power supply, presumably similar if not identical to the one used in the PreMate, rather than the linear supply used in the -4. Just speculating, but perhaps the reason is simply related to internal real estate, with the touch screen and its associated circuitry taking up too much space to allow the presumably larger linear supply to fit.
As far as I've been able to tell from the website the only difference between the -4 and -5 besides the ones you cited is that the -5 includes the USB interface module as standard, within its $1K higher price, rather than as a $500 option.
Enjoy! Best regards,
-- Al
|
To Al & Roscoe - when you get your DEQXs' I am happy to help with any aspect of explanation or setup if you need it... |
Thanks very much, Drewan. I've been keeping in mind the kindly offer of assistance you had made earlier in the thread.
Best regards,
-- Al
|
Yes, many thanks Drewan. That is very very much apreciated. I will likely be in touch after the DEQX arrives. You rule! |
DEQX is here! Did an initial set-up quickly using the DEQX wizards. But will probably tweak a bit today. Some of the measurements suggest I might need to get some room treatments behind my listening position, and might benefit from some different speaker placement.
Drewan77, I'll be in touch once I've got this tweaking worked out. |
Roscoe ... any other early impressions? |
OK Roscoe, no problem. Playing around and tweaking with DEQX is a good way to learn |
I'll try to get some other impressions up here soon. But first I want to tweak my room a bit and re-run the room correction. |
Well, I've concluded those that whine about 3 hour setup time are knockers or whiners. If someone won't spend 3 hours to dial in something this fabulous (judging from owners comments) then in he (or she) better not call themselves an audiophile. I've spent that cleaning all contacts. Takes me that listening to Saturday afternoon at the Opera. It takes 3 hours to review information in some manuals. How about turntable setup? Anyone agree? |
I am bound to agree with Ptss I suppose, given my experience with DEQX. A few hours to get an initial great sounding setup is only the start, it can do so much more than that
Time put into understanding and perfecting a system in this hobby is paid back many times over in the realism of music playback. DEQX does it for me but I am sure other people gain great pleasure by taking a different route
I must admit that both my Turntables also benefitted from hours of attention, to say nothing of a rigorous RCM regime with every used and many new LPs I own |
I think that 3 hrs is a totally reasonable amount of time. Though I will say that the learning curve here gets a bit steep once you move past the basic setup via the setup Wizards. Powerful device. |
Comforting to have support. Drewan thanks for mentioning our record cleaning! Perhaps those raised on CD's expect "instant" satisfaction - and while I can understand that- even my CD's are enhanced by the time I take to clean and treat them with the combination The Absolute Sound and others praised as new essentials. I am very appreciative of the results my time investment has paid on my enjoyment of music. No question about it. |
Ptss and Roscoe ... double agree. I've worked with Larry Owen, the DEXPert, on a couple of occasions setting up my PreMate. 3 hours "ain't nuthin." Larry knows all the tricks to get the most out of the DEQX. In for a penny ... in for a pound. |
|
Roscoe ... how are you making out with your DEQX? |
02-28-15: Bifwynne
Roscoe ... how are you making out with your DEQX? maybe i should pull my mind out of the gutter. LOL! ;-) "faring"? seriously, yes, this is the big question i would also like the answer to. do we have another convert into the time-coherent speaker camp?? ;-) thanks. |
I'm a convert but not buying just yet. |
