Full Range Drivers


I was wondering who has heard them and if so, what is or was your take on them compared to full range speakers.
donjr
Single driver speakers can run the gamut from stellar to down right crappy,just like any other type.You can't just make a general assumption that they are all good/bad or sound better/worse than multi-driver speakers.The good ones I have heard,Tannoy to drop a name,are IMHO every bit as good as any speaker I've heard.If you name a few speakers,you will probably get more responses.Of course this is just my opinion,feel free to disagree.
By one set of parameters your telephone is a full range driver. If you are looking for 20 to 20K range, you will not find a driver that can do it.
I use a horn with a compression driver that extends from 400 Hz. to 14Khz. Below that I have a 15 inch woofer which meets the horn at 400 and extends just below 50 Hz. Most guys on this forum would consider that unacceptably limited. I find that it covers most of the musical spectrum. At my age, high frequencies go to waste. The woofer delivers a sensuous, relaxed and accurate bass response so I'm happy.
What are you trying to learn? The advantage of a full range is no crossover. The disadvantage is compromised extension. Everything involves trade-offs and attendant choices.
I can't disagree. I've never heard one. I find your response appropriate considering the lack of information I provided. I'll try to see if I can demo some Tannoy's. I've heard that some full range driver configurations do a good job of reproducing vocals, I would imagine if implemented properly. I think my 3 ways do a good job, but have nothing to compare them too. I'm under the impression that no speaker does everything perfectly, so maybe I should look into having a second pair of speakers on hand for certain types of music. I'm probably crazy and just going through some weird 'collect bug'.
To get the most out of a single driver, you also need a huge, sometime elaborate enclosure.
And yes, the best can run some real $$$. But, given the generally high sensitivity you won't need a gigantic amp.
I have owned many speakers over many years and have enjoyed several single driver speakers including:
Beauhorns, Lamhorns and KCS seas exotics. None of these are full range in the sense of 20hz-20khz...not even close.
But depending on the room, positioning, music and personal tatse, I have found them all very satisfactory and satisfying...in fact, I would consider the KCS seas exotic to be one of the very best values I have come across.
I currently use Tonian Classic 12.1s which use the PHY driver covering most of the speakers usable range and the treble is brilliantly handled by the Raven 2 ribbon tweeter. This being second pair of Tonian speakers I have owned (original TLM-1s) and a very fine speaker IME.
I certainly like what a well designed single driver speaker can offer but like all speakers you have to pick your priorities and poison.
I ran Fostex Fe166 in a fostex BLH cabinet that I built for under $500 total, ran it with a Thorens TT, Bottlehead preamp and phono and Fi X 2a3 amp. It was one of the most enjoyable systems I owned. Very coherent, music that hangs in the air and very ballanced from 45 to 15k.

This is the system I most regret getting rid of in my search for the best. It was a 3K system that played music like an instrument and volcals like the singer was in my room
Fin1bxn. That's what I'd like to hear is vocals like the singer was in my room. I'm toying with the Tekton Kat's Meow. The price is great and the designer/owner of the company said he'd pay to see the look on my face when I compare them with my B&W CM7's. He has a lot of back ground working with various speaker manufacturers and it sounds like he knows what he's doing. With a 30 day money back guarantee and a 5 years warranty, why not have them around? I'd like to be able to chose speakers based on what music on want to listen to.
One thing that should be made clear is that "Full Range" is a bit of misnomer for the average listener of moderate income and room size. Very, very, few speakers of any driver design actually cover 20Hz-20kHz(-3dB) accurately. Very few do 30Hz(-3dB) accurately. Those that do are usually very big, very heavy, and very expensive.

Fullrange single drivers have their advantages and limitations. I think the first sonic benefit that most fans, like myself, will tout is their musical "coherence". What does that mean? That the entire musical spectrum seems to emanate from one, seamless, sonic tapestry without any inconsistencies. It's very hard to describe in words, but once you hear it, it is very hard to accept anything else.

Why do they seem more "coherent" to some people than other multi-driver designs? I think most of us, like Macrojack, will cite no, or 1st order, crossovers and no need to transition between differing drivers at the crucial midrange frequencies where the ear is most sensitive to anomalies. Seamless transition between drivers of different size and construction materials is not easily done and fairly rare.

The downsides - like all speakers, bass. There are only three ways to deep, accurate, bass; 1) large driver surface area, 2) long driver excursion, 2) big cabinet. Usually, two of the three are necessary unless lots of power is needed.

And single drivers generally need really large cabinets to go deep with any authority. Even then, they won't move the same amount of air as good multi-driver designs. But, well-executed designs will have very fast and clean bass, which can be supplemented by good subwoofers.

Which brings us back to - is that really a single driver system? No, not in the strictest sense. But, single driver advocates are primarily concerned with a driver covering the most critical section of the frequency range in it's entirety - the full midrange (400Hz-6kHz). Most single driver proponents would even like to push that out to 8kHz-10kHz.

BTW, Tannoys aren't single drivers, they are coaxials with a center-mounted tweeter. But, their 12' or 15" driver does cover the entire critical range anyway. And they are pretty awesome when properly implemented in the right cabinet.
You may want to consider this article::

http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/cs-amps-speakers.pdf

These speakers work BEST with current source amps for which Pass provides a workaround.
Wow. Excellent information everyone. This has given me a lot to think about. I have a feeling I'm on a long journey which probably translates to upgrade fever, in the long term. I think I'll start to play around soon. I should be able to dabble in it without having to shed gear which will allow me to make comparisons. I'm on my first tube amp so there's so much for me to experience. I still haven't tube rolled and hope to try out some different 12ax7's soon. I greatly appreciate the information everyone shares on this site. If I ever win the lottery, I hope you guys will help me tweak the Wilson's after the crane lowers them into the new music room.
Donjr, try and find some people within driving distance who have single drivers. You really should hear several different types before making the plunge.

Check out The Fullrange Driver Forum, that's where all the fanatics hang out. Drop a post looking for people in your area, I'm sure there are a few. That's also the best place to ask any questions, members there have tried every possible of driver, cabinet, amplifier, etc.
My friend is gaga over the Feastrex drivers he just heard at CES. but look at the price tag...egads...
With the few I've heard you don't get much low or high end, but there is that coherence thing.
For anyone who is desirous of that coherence thing, I can recommend the horns I use. They are, of course, very efficient and they are utterly seamless throughout a very broad operating range. They are quite directional with only a 40 degree dispersion pattern, you need a woofer, and you need to sit back 12 feet or more. Because they are very directional, room treatments are less necessary. My room is 15 by 22 and they work well but I always have a sense that they would be even better in a larger space. Oh, and did I mention, they are extremely dynamic and effortless sounding?
Magfan. I read that article (head ache). That was enlightening to say the least. I was particularly interested in the comments about the Fostex FF225K driver, which is the driver Eric Alexander from Tekton Design chose to use in his Kat's Meow speaker. In the aricle, Nelson Pass said it reminds him of the JBL LE8 and if implimented with a tweeter above 5k you'll really have something. It's funny because that's what Eric Alexander found worked out best with the Kat's Meow and added a Fostex bullet tweeter in a separate enclosure on top.

I agree with Darkmoebius that I should find some to listen to.
Tannoy does not use a full range driver. And performance for full ranges is as varable as any other transducer type.
Donjr, almost any true fullrange "single driver" system is going to need a supertweeter and subwoofer(s), making it a 3-way system, in reality.

But, some have done a great job to moving the crossover between highs and lows way beyond the entire midrange frequencies.

A great starter system for a real taste of true fullrange glory is the $650 Hammer Dynamics Super-12 kit. It uses a professional 12" widerange driver to cover everything up to ~8-10kHz where it crosses over to a coaxially-mounted supertweeter.

This speaker does bass in a BIG way, along with all the benefits of other single drivers. A 12" driver has it's own benefits compared to smaller ones. There are a ton of upgrades that can be done to the speaker, like a better tweeter and crossover mods.

The kit is easily built by anyone with a table saw or circular saw and a few other simple tools. It can be made in a few hours from three or four 4'x8' pieces of plywood/mdf, if you are the least bit handy.

There are a few magazine reviews of the Super-12 on their website.
Darkmoebius, I would be able to handle the wood working skills no problem. My father gave me a beautiful Jet table saw with a Biesemeyer fence, an amazing plunge router with a more amazing router table that I can't remember the make of. It's all a matter of getting my a$$ out of the listening chair. I didn't want to go this route out of pure laziness, but a 12" driver holds my interest like a beach in Brazil. I'll look into the Hammer kit. If I lose a digit or two along the way, I can always press the shuffle button with my nose.
Donjr,

The FullRangeDriver.com(home of the FullRangeDriver Forum) still maintains it's original SingleDriver Website archives. Inside of that is a priceless resource that has in-depth theory, construction, and upgrade/modification information on a lot of the most popular designs a few years back.

But, most importantly, they maintained the Hammer Dynamics Super-12 Tweaks page. It documents the evolution of the Super-12's from the late creator's, John Wyckoff, original kit to better tweeters, crossovers, wiring, cabinet reinforcement, etc. Some really talented and enthusiastic people experimented every which way to squeeze the best performance possible out John's speakers. And their final tweaks take it to a whole 'nother level.

I think John's wife, Colleen, has incorporated a lot of those final tweaks into the kit now, so there may not be much to do anymore. I think the upgraded Fostex FT17h supertweeter now comes as part of the stock kit along with the better Solen hepta-litz wire wound inductors. Send Colleen an email, she is very nice and helpful. Supplying the kit is way to keep her late husband's dream alive. It's been a few years since I last sent her an email, so I can't say for a fact that she's still doing it, but the website is up, so i guess so.

If she isn't, I have an extra kit that I bought for my brother years ago that he never ended up building due to his first kid being born.

I have the Super-12's and still love them even though I have a much, much, more expensive and complex system now. There are things that a large single driver does well that smaller ones cannot match, bass being the most obvious. But, there is also a difference in the sonic presentation.

The Super-12's can rock with the best of them and still do jazz and chamber music extremely well. Vocals are eerily real. The Super's are a true 97dB efficent, so the whole range of flea-powered SET amps are perfect, from 2wpc 45's to "monster" 845's and 211's.

But, they also do extremely well with low-powered and larger push-pull amps. I preferred more power for most complex music, but have used them with 8 wpc 300B SET and 6wpc PX-25 amps with superb results. They also do well with good solid state amps.

The Super-12's are a great way to experiment with all types and designs of amps because of their relatively high efficiency.
I have owned Lamhorns, Beauhorns, C&C Abbys, C&C Bens, Tonian TL-D1s, and 2nd Rethms. The two speakers I occasionally miss quite a bit in that bunch are the Lamhorns and Tonians - both have qualities that are quite remarkable and really set them apart.

But I have moved on to multi-driver speakers, chasing real-world performance instead of theory. While some wideband-drivers (a better general term for the genre than "single-driver" IMO) speakers are indeed very good, IME all have some Achilles heel. (Then again, to get a speaker with truly no real weaknesses is hugely expensive.)

On the theoretical side, the fact is that there is some misinformation that is regularly repeated. To start with, a wideband driver with a whizzer is not "crossover-less" - it has a mechanical crossover. Obviously there is a point where frequencies transition from the main cone to the whizzer.

Secondly, even with a whizzer most wideband drivers are producing some of the range via cone breakup. That doesn't necessarily have to be regarded as "bad"; it is what it is. This has to do with the commonly rising response (which some wideband drivers DO avoid!) and somewhat ragged frequency response. (Smart shoppers realize they are trading flat frequency response for generally better dynamics and drivability.)

I have found that a well-implemented two-or-three way with well-chosen crossover points can be very nearly as "direct" as a wideband driver but without the weaknesses, which range from mild to glaring.
Great point, Paul. Of course, there are wideband drivers w/o whizzer cones, too. Like the Fostex FE-E Sigma range in C&C speakers(I own IM-Bens). But, as you say, there is always some limitation to every driver and design.

I'm in the planning phase of my next big system change, it's looking like large Apogee ribbons or line arrays. But, I still really love widerange speakers for jazz and vocals.
"But, I still really love widerange speakers for jazz and vocals."

That's why I'm interested in them. (jazz & vocals) That's what I love the most, but I have to throw percussion in there as well. I'm not talking about Keith Moon style percussion. I prefer the stuff like bongos and beating on a coconut with a stick.
If jazz and vocals are your thing, then a widerange driver system is really gonna float your boat. If the Super-12 ends up being the one, shoot me an email and I'll cut you a great deal on the unused kit I have(w/ upgraded tweeters)
there is a nice pair of cardersound ninas listed in the classifieds. look at that, i have them, and supplemented witha dayton sub they are the system that thrills me the most. multiple other systems (acoustic zen, linn aktiv, totem)
Darkmoebius, does your kit have the Fostex Bullet Tweeter? What does putting that kit together entail?
Well, all I can say is that there is an exceptional single driver made by Feastrex that can be used to cover from about 60 Hz to well above 20K Hz. Actually there are two different drivers, one 5" and one 9." The 5" is the better driver and especially in the field coil version. I heard it in the Maxhorn cabinet and was thoroughly please except below 60 Hz. I have spent a good part of my audio life trying to mate subwoofers with such "not full range" speakers. I don't think it can be done.

These drivers are very expensive. I think $39k per pair. I cannot imagine anyone buying them at that price.
Yep, Donjr, I have Fostex FT17H Horn Super Tweeter and the original Audax tweet that came with the kit.

As you've probably already read, the 98.5dB Fostex more closely matches the Super-12's 97db efficiency and only requires minor padding down to integrate well. On top of that, it actually sounds better.
01-27-10: Donjr
Darkmoebius...What does putting that kit together entail?
Darn, I used to have a .pdf copy of the manual on my computer, but I cannot find it. The printed manual is in the kit box in storage.

Essentially, you need only 2(or 3) pieces of 4'x8' mdf wood, wood clamps/straps, table saw, wood glue, and some screws. A router(and roundover but) is best for the port hole and driver cutout, but they can be done with a jigsaw. The speaker plans are designed so that all panels and bracing come off the 2 sheets leaving no real scrap. So, you cut the 4 side panels and two top off each 4'x8' along with 4 1"-2" strips for vertical corner bracing/screw in.

I'm not real good with a table saw, so I spent a lot more time stressing over getting straight cuts than need be. But, it really didn't take that long once I got going. It probably took me an hour or two to trace out and make the cuts, including the port hole and driver cutout. Assembly after that is pretty quick if you've got clamps and/or wood straps to hold the cabinet together while the glue dries.

Some people added extra thin strips of ebony(?) strips diagonally across the largest panels to break up and tame resonances. I added Deflex sound panels in mine behind the 12" driver to absorb and break up reflections from the back of the driver off the back wall. Also some Wispermat on the walls(not completely covered). Both these products absorbed reflections AND deadened the panel resonances. Also, the plumbers putty on the speaker spider. This brought a much higher level of refinement to the sound.

I think I still have 2 extra Deflex pads to go with the kit.

darkmoebius
900 posts
01-20-2010 3:14pm
One thing that should be made clear is that "Full Range" is a bit of misnomer for the average listener of moderate income and room size. Very, very, few speakers of any driver design actually cover 20Hz-20kHz(-3dB) accurately. Very few do 30Hz(-3dB) accurately. Those that do are usually very big, very heavy, and very expensive.

Fullrange single drivers have their advantages and limitations. I think the first sonic benefit that most fans, like myself, will tout is their musical "coherence". What does that mean? That the entire musical spectrum seems to emanate from one, seamless, sonic tapestry without any inconsistencies. It's very hard to describe in words, but once you hear it, it is very hard to accept anything else.

Why do they seem more "coherent" to some people than other multi-driver designs? I think most of us, like Macrojack, will cite no, or 1st order, crossovers and no need to transition between differing drivers at the crucial midrange frequencies where the ear is most sensitive to anomalies. Seamless transition between drivers of different size and construction materials is not easily done and fairly rare.

The downsides - like all speakers, bass. There are only three ways to deep, accurate, bass; 1) large driver surface area, 2) long driver excursion, 2) big cabinet. Usually, two of the three are necessary unless lots of power is needed.

And single drivers generally need really large cabinets to go deep with any authority. Even then, they won't move the same amount of air as good multi-driver designs. But, well-executed designs will have very fast and clean bass, which can be supplemented by good subwoofers.

Which brings us back to - is that really a single driver system? No, not in the strictest sense. But, single driver advocates are primarily concerned with a driver covering the most critical section of the frequency range in it's entirety - the full midrange (400Hz-6kHz). Most single driver proponents would even like to push that out to 8kHz-10kHz.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The earlier Full range/wide band/high sensitivity speakers did lack fq extention in bass and highs.
This is correct.
Starting cerca 2010, time of your post, there were 2 new labs making single  wide band drivers that were developed to correct these limitations.
These mew kids on the block now boast bass and highs.
So if we consider these new developments, then Wide band single drivers are superior to any speaker witha  xover. 
as we all know xovers get in the way of the original musical source. Its a **add on** and causes depletion of energy = efficiency = enter in distortion. 
Besides  the xover variety in order to acheive FULL fq extention, requires drivers that handle bass, midrange and highs. 
Not as easy as it sounds. 
Bass, yep, got that. Mids,,hummm, issues here, Highs, again, issues. 
To attempt all 3 witha  xover, = big heavy speakers and very expensive.  +  by gaining rock solid bass and some high fq;s, you end up with so-so midrange.
Lets consider darkmoebius final comment.
**But single driver advocates are primaarily concerned with a  driver capable of covering the ~~MOST critical section~~~of the fq band ~~in its entireity~~~The Full MIdrange , 400hz-6khz,,,

Very nice assessment from darkmoebius.
This is pretty much what we , wide band fan-atics are after in a  speaker. Voicing midrange with clarity, presence, lowest distortion as technically possible.
And if bass is there, = bonus, 
Highs are there = yet another bonus.
We are not after the ultimate FULL Range.
We are only after the  midrange section. 
Nothing more.
Here is where most xover designs fail. The mids always have issues,. 
Of course the xover fans don't want to hear what I hear. 
At least when it comes to challenging music genres, 
As i full symphony orchestra. 
Any weaknesses in mids , while trying to voice a  full symphony orchestra, these weaknesses will most certainity, will surface. 
I can hear this liability, they can not. 
We have 2 camps, 
'The xover/inefficient  camp, And the wide band/high sensitivity  camp.
The very best xover speakers are comming out of Troel Gravesen's lab. 
Not cheap, these are super high end and as i say, bring your AMEX Gold card, you will need it. 
These TG's are the very best of the best in xover designs. 
Hats off to Troels,  guy is a  genius  in choosing drivers and xover components.  Nothing 2nd rate in his speakers.
But now along comes the new high tech wide band drivers to match what Troel's is accomplishing with xover designs.
. But the wide band is more suited for my musical taste and budget. 
Not to mention speaker size/weight. 
Troel's speakers tend to be rather large and heavy.  
The new wide band as i see it ..is a  
~~Win-Win-Win~~ speaker set up. 
vs xover designs. 







darkmoebius
900 posts
01-28-2010 2:03pm
Yep, Donjr, I have Fostex FT17H Horn Super Tweeter and the original Audax tweet that came with the kit.

As you've probably already read, the 98.5dB Fostex more closely matches the Super-12's 97db efficiency and only requires minor padding down to integrate well. On top of that, it actually sounds better.
01-27-10: Donjr
Darkmoebius...What does putting that kit together entail?
Darn, I used to have a .pdf copy of the manual on my computer, but I cannot find it. The printed manual is in the kit box in storage.

Essentially, you need only 2(or 3) pieces of 4'x8' mdf wood, wood clamps/straps, table saw, wood glue, and some screws. A router(and roundover but) is best for the port hole and driver cutout, but they can be done with a jigsaw. The speaker plans are designed so that all panels and bracing come off the 2 sheets leaving no real scrap. So, you cut the 4 side panels and two top off each 4'x8' along with 4 1"-2" strips for vertical corner bracing/screw in.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes this is yet another huge advantage going single wide band driver.
I am on a  tight audio budget,  lately, and so making a  DIY cabinet works for me. 
I plan to make a  temp cabinet, just to get the driver up N running, later on I'll work on a  more complex proper enclosure, taking my time with the cuts and details. 
I'm about tired of this  4 inch wide band ~~made in china~~ driver. Its ok, not worth any more than I paid for it = $175/pair. 
But better for classical than was the Millennium tweeter, at 87 db, THATS FOR SURE!!
I like to use 1/2  inch sanded plywood when building a  cabinet. 
= Lighter and more easy to work with vs 3/4 inch. 

tbg
5,263 posts
01-28-2010 1:10pm
Well, all I can say is that there is an exceptional single driver made by Feastrex that can be used to cover from about 60 Hz to well above 20K Hz. Actually there are two different drivers, one 5" and one 9." The 5" is the better driver and especially in the field coil version. I heard it in the Maxhorn cabinet and was thoroughly please except below 60 Hz. I have spent a good part of my audio life trying to mate subwoofers with such "not full range" speakers. I don't think it can be done.

These drivers are very expensive. I think $39k per pair. I cannot imagine anyone buying them at that price.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You can find a  SUPER RAVE review on the Inet on Feastrex. 
Everyone has to make their own research and judgements.
At that  price, I want to hear one, before i put down 40G's. 
Field Coil , according to a  friend who has heard FC's.  do not make any magic more than a  good Neodynium magnet. 
In classical muisc, there is not much below 60hz.
However according to  2 labs making the new high tech wide band Neodynium speakers, they claim fq's reach as low as, ~~20hz~~ and extend well beyound the earlier designs of 10k hz. 
One lab, if my eyes see correctly claim 80khz extension. 
Which to me is a  selling gimmick.  And raises a  ~red flag~~
Again in classical orchestra, full symphony, there is hardly any fq's over say,,,10khz. 
Which leads me to my latest mantra ,
Wide band is the ideal choice for classical music. 
" Wide band is the ideal choice for classical music. "
if you repeat it enough time, it surely will become true
Full range drivers aren't full range.

Any of them I've seen benefit from tweeters and a subwoofer array.

They sound better if bass frequencies are prevented from causing excursion of the cone- this reduces Doppler Effect distortion. Its easy to hear the improvement when this is done. All 'full range' drivers have beaminess in the highs- so its useful to have a tweeter or tweeter array rear-firing to correct off axis tonal balance- so you don't have to have your head in a vise. This helps to 'lock in' the soundstage quite nicely!


This runs counter to the single driver enthusiast's ideal of no crossover. But there it is. You can't get away from these simple facts although there's no harm (other than dollars) in trying :)


The real advantage of a 'full range' driver is they are usually fairly easy to drive- and that's good for amplifiers to make less distortion. But if you want to really hear them at their best, you'll have a crossover of some kind sooner or later.
atmasphere9,566 posts07-01-2021 10:51amFull range drivers aren't full range.

Any of them I've seen benefit from tweeters and a subwoofer array.

They sound better if bass frequencies are prevented from causing excursion of the cone- this reduces Doppler Effect distortion. Its easy to hear the improvement when this is done. All 'full range' drivers have beaminess in the highs- so its useful to have a tweeter or tweeter array rear-firing to correct off axis tonal balance- so you don't have to have your head in a vise. This helps to 'lock in' the soundstage quite nicely!


This runs counter to the single driver enthusiast's ideal of no crossover. But there it is. You can't get away from these simple facts although there's no harm (other than dollars) in trying :)


The real advantage of a 'full range' driver is they are usually fairly easy to drive- and that's good for amplifiers to make less distortion. But if you want to really hear them at their best, you'll have a crossover of some kind sooner or later.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now this is a well thought out post.
Lot of meat N potatoes here.
OK so I like how you mentioned, bass fq;'s can interfer with the cone producing other fq's. 
I would prefer less bass in a  wide band, so I can employ either a  Seas or Scanspeak  *super bass* woofer. 
I have no issues witha  xover in  woofers, not at all. 
So if I need a   tweeter/xover in the 15+hz range, I may skip it, 
There is  just not enough hz's to interest me, however my tech geek mentioned its a  sort of **ambience* in the super highs that you want to capture, = the sparkle, the sheen. 
OK, if I need some sparkles, I'll figure out a  tweeter with xover. Got that.
No problem there.
As far as  **easy to drive*** welll yes, it is true tyhe lower the gain on a  amp vol knob, = more fidelity. 
The higher you turn the knob, the slight increase in distortion. 
Another huge plus for my needs, as i listen near field, 10x12x8 room. 
You know its possible i should order their 5 inch wide band, as being more a  pure midrange with  better highs vs  their 8 inch. 
As I say I have the W18's for bass running up to 800hz's. 
But at 87 db, you really need to crank the vol to get response from the 100hz-800hz. 
This is going to bea  issue, as the wide band has either a  97db, or 91db. 
On the lab site says 97db, but on a  dealer site, the speaker specs is  91db. 
My tech tried to explain  one possibility, but I got side tracked and did not listen carefully.
If the diver is 97db, this will be a  major issue trying to iintergrate a  W18E001 at 87db.  However if its 91db,  the match will be acceptable. 


What do I think of full range drivers? I have one in my car sounds pleasant but not sound like live music! Enjoy ☺️
Think about this' Full symphony orchestra. 
See pic below
https://www.google.com/search?q=picture+of++the+vienna+symphony+orchestra&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUK...
All those FULL  MIDRANGE instruments,, all trying to work their fq's through a  tiny 1 inch hole.
Ridiculous

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=367:e0011-06-t25cf002&ca...


Dome tweeters are a   failure when it comes to large chamber through full symphony orchestra. 

Its like asking a   90 lb  weaking to take on a  Herculean task
Ridiculous

Wide band is the only driver up to this Herculean challenge. 
Horns  would be the only other option. 
tweeters reproduce over 2khz. they are not fullrange.
2khz to 20khz, listen to your orchestra with a highpass at 2khz.



murphythecat
174 posts
07-01-2021 5:41pm
tweeters reproduce over 2khz. they are not fullrange.
2khz to 20khz, listen to your orchestra with a highpass at 2khz.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Yes i stand corrected. 
The Seas Excel W18E001's, are voicing the 40hz-2khz. 
humm, 
Ok well then what we have is the W18;s not being sensitive enough for my preference. 87db is not going to cut it. 
The Millennium is not going to cut the grade either at 87db. 
Both have incredible clarity, its just that you have to set gain vol knob on the Linestage Jadis DPL at 10 oclock, to try to compensate for low efficiency.
Now the tweeter starts stressing out with massive volume when orchestra is in full bloom,. 
OK now we are GETTING somewhere.
The W18E001's can easily handle the 40hz-2K hz with pure musicality. 
Check.
It is the Seas Millennium that gets  stressed out, 
hummmm, 
Thing is there is alot of symphonic fq's in the 2k-6k range.
hummm, 
Solution.
Employ wide band, 8 inch cone.
Check.
Will be a  real bad shootout twix the '
W18E001's vs the wide band in the bass department. 
 have no issues keeping the W18E001's running with the 8 wide band, As the bass in this driver is 1st class. 
And if I need more, I could sell off the 2 pairs of W18's, now 20 yrs old, perform as *New*. and take that cash , buy a  pair of W22 Graphene, use same Mundorf Supreme cap xover. 
If the wide band has all the bass i need/want, the Seas will have to go. 
sadly, as i really love that driver. 
But there is a new  gun on the block, and we will see how this shootout comes off. 
The Millenniums are long gone. Using a  wide band 4 inch + horn tweeter in place of Millennium. 
much better mids.
W18 kicks in at 800hz. 
87db is what we call 
Inefficient. 
91db + = efficient.
91db is the bottom # to be included in the Efficient camp. 
90db = In-efficient camp. 
We need parimeters  and define  tech gargon so we are all on the same page. 
The wide band comming out of china , you need to deduct 2db off the specs. They are cheating, bumping the number up to entice sales.
At times even more than 2db cheat.
The AMT's I got the other day, claimed 97db, 
More like 91 db. or even lower. 
had my tech geek test them on his gadget. 


I was wondering who has heard them and if so, what is or was your take on them compared to full range speakers.donjr01-19-2010 3:13pm~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


You see, back in 2010, some of us could not figure out what these **odd things* were, How did these *most unusual* drivers sound, vs Full Range/3 way, speakers sound. 

Even as of 2018, I had no idea these ,,or lets say I completely forgot about Fostex/Lowther. 
But in 2019, some wide bands offered on Ebay caught my attention. 
Hummm they sure look cool, different from what I  know as a  **speaker*
Just 1  driver?? hummm, How?
I bet the majority of Audiogon members have not even heard a  newer wide band driver as yet.
See the only way to  take the curiosity  a  step further, that  of  real interest, ,  is to open up  access to a  demo of these *out of  the ordinary* speakers.
Otherwise wide band will never become more than they ALWAYS have  been,  a  curiosity. 

My awareness, is now elevated,  now  I am fully aware.
These things are not meant for curiosity only.
these things actually work. 
They can make music, and make music as something unique and special. 
Unlike you've ever heard music in the past. 
Wide band is the future. 
This realiztion  will take some time. 
The next gen of audiophiles will be more awake to these musical marvels. 
We live in a  super high tech world , where new, newer, newest has over taken older designs, year in , year out.
Why should this NEW-ness not become a  part of our audiophile hobby?
Why should we ignore the New if indeed  the tech  does prove itself to be superior?? To the old tech.

Thats at least how i see things. xovers = old, if not out dated technology. Useful at times, but not as a  complete *full range*. A dome tweeter (= old tech) will not ever compete with a  new tech wide band in fq's 2k-15k+hz's. 

Wide band, new high tech has over come all the weaknesses   in our tweeters. 
Lets not kid ourselves. tweeters served their purpose, we had some great music from these little marvels over the past 50 years, ]
Its high time we move on now, and starting thinking outside our boxes.
 
The real test comes in the midrange, here is where xovers /3 way's will fail vs a  high tech wide band. 








murphythecat
174 posts
07-01-2021 9:54am
" Wide band is the ideal choice for classical music. "
if you repeat it enough time, it surely will become true


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you deny they exist long enough, you'll never own a  pair. 
Most audiohpiles don'tt even know they exist, or how they sound, and most will never make the switch. 
For any number of resaons, But late in life, when they acutally hear a  wide band, they'll say, **wow years ago there was  a guy yapping all the time about these *things**,,hummm, never had I thought they were  anything more than  a  curiosity piece, nothing more,,,hummm wowo , how could i miss these things for all these years***
People are people and are extrenely slow to change or never change, 
Either one.