Full Range Drivers

darkmoebius900 posts01-28-2010 2:03pmYep, Donjr, I have Fostex FT17H Horn Super Tweeter and the original Audax tweet that came with the kit.

As you've probably already read, the 98.5dB Fostex more closely matches the Super-12's 97db efficiency and only requires minor padding down to integrate well. On top of that, it actually sounds better.

01-27-10: Donjr
Darkmoebius...What does putting that kit together entail?

Darn, I used to have a .pdf copy of the manual on my computer, but I cannot find it. The printed manual is in the kit box in storage.

Essentially, you need only 2(or 3) pieces of 4'x8' mdf wood, wood clamps/straps, table saw, wood glue, and some screws. A router(and roundover but) is best for the port hole and driver cutout, but they can be done with a jigsaw. The speaker plans are designed so that all panels and bracing come off the 2 sheets leaving no real scrap. So, you cut the 4 side panels and two top off each 4'x8' along with 4 1"-2" strips for vertical corner bracing/screw in.


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Yes this is yet another huge advantage going single wide band driver.
I am on a  tight audio budget,  lately, and so making a  DIY cabinet works for me. 
I plan to make a  temp cabinet, just to get the driver up N running, later on I'll work on a  more complex proper enclosure, taking my time with the cuts and details. 
I'm about tired of this  4 inch wide band ~~made in china~~ driver. Its ok, not worth any more than I paid for it = $175/pair. 
But better for classical than was the Millennium tweeter, at 87 db, THATS FOR SURE!!
I like to use 1/2  inch sanded plywood when building a  cabinet. 
= Lighter and more easy to work with vs 3/4 inch. 

darkmoebius900 posts01-20-2010 3:14pmOne thing that should be made clear is that "Full Range" is a bit of misnomer for the average listener of moderate income and room size. Very, very, few speakers of any driver design actually cover 20Hz-20kHz(-3dB) accurately. Very few do 30Hz(-3dB) accurately. Those that do are usually very big, very heavy, and very expensive.

Fullrange single drivers have their advantages and limitations. I think the first sonic benefit that most fans, like myself, will tout is their musical "coherence". What does that mean? That the entire musical spectrum seems to emanate from one, seamless, sonic tapestry without any inconsistencies. It's very hard to describe in words, but once you hear it, it is very hard to accept anything else.

Why do they seem more "coherent" to some people than other multi-driver designs? I think most of us, like Macrojack, will cite no, or 1st order, crossovers and no need to transition between differing drivers at the crucial midrange frequencies where the ear is most sensitive to anomalies. Seamless transition between drivers of different size and construction materials is not easily done and fairly rare.

The downsides - like all speakers, bass. There are only three ways to deep, accurate, bass; 1) large driver surface area, 2) long driver excursion, 2) big cabinet. Usually, two of the three are necessary unless lots of power is needed.

And single drivers generally need really large cabinets to go deep with any authority. Even then, they won't move the same amount of air as good multi-driver designs. But, well-executed designs will have very fast and clean bass, which can be supplemented by good subwoofers.

Which brings us back to - is that really a single driver system? No, not in the strictest sense. But, single driver advocates are primarily concerned with a driver covering the most critical section of the frequency range in it's entirety - the full midrange (400Hz-6kHz). Most single driver proponents would even like to push that out to 8kHz-10kHz.


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The earlier Full range/wide band/high sensitivity speakers did lack fq extention in bass and highs.
This is correct.
Starting cerca 2010, time of your post, there were 2 new labs making single  wide band drivers that were developed to correct these limitations.
These mew kids on the block now boast bass and highs.
So if we consider these new developments, then Wide band single drivers are superior to any speaker witha  xover. 
as we all know xovers get in the way of the original musical source. Its a **add on** and causes depletion of energy = efficiency = enter in distortion. 
Besides  the xover variety in order to acheive FULL fq extention, requires drivers that handle bass, midrange and highs. 
Not as easy as it sounds. 
Bass, yep, got that. Mids,,hummm, issues here, Highs, again, issues. 
To attempt all 3 witha  xover, = big heavy speakers and very expensive.  +  by gaining rock solid bass and some high fq;s, you end up with so-so midrange.
Lets consider darkmoebius final comment.
**But single driver advocates are primaarily concerned with a  driver capable of covering the ~~MOST critical section~~~of the fq band ~~in its entireity~~~The Full MIdrange , 400hz-6khz,,,

Very nice assessment from darkmoebius.
This is pretty much what we , wide band fan-atics are after in a  speaker. Voicing midrange with clarity, presence, lowest distortion as technically possible.
And if bass is there, = bonus, 
Highs are there = yet another bonus.
We are not after the ultimate FULL Range.
We are only after the  midrange section. 
Nothing more.
Here is where most xover designs fail. The mids always have issues,. 
Of course the xover fans don't want to hear what I hear. 
At least when it comes to challenging music genres, 
As i full symphony orchestra. 
Any weaknesses in mids , while trying to voice a  full symphony orchestra, these weaknesses will most certainity, will surface. 
I can hear this liability, they can not. 
We have 2 camps, 
'The xover/inefficient  camp, And the wide band/high sensitivity  camp.
The very best xover speakers are comming out of Troel Gravesen's lab. 
Not cheap, these are super high end and as i say, bring your AMEX Gold card, you will need it. 
These TG's are the very best of the best in xover designs. 
Hats off to Troels,  guy is a  genius  in choosing drivers and xover components.  Nothing 2nd rate in his speakers.
But now along comes the new high tech wide band drivers to match what Troel's is accomplishing with xover designs.
. But the wide band is more suited for my musical taste and budget. 
Not to mention speaker size/weight. 
Troel's speakers tend to be rather large and heavy.  
The new wide band as i see it ..is a  
~~Win-Win-Win~~ speaker set up. 
vs xover designs. 

tbg5,263 posts01-28-2010 1:10pmWell, all I can say is that there is an exceptional single driver made by Feastrex that can be used to cover from about 60 Hz to well above 20K Hz. Actually there are two different drivers, one 5" and one 9." The 5" is the better driver and especially in the field coil version. I heard it in the Maxhorn cabinet and was thoroughly please except below 60 Hz. I have spent a good part of my audio life trying to mate subwoofers with such "not full range" speakers. I don't think it can be done.

These drivers are very expensive. I think $39k per pair. I cannot imagine anyone buying them at that price.


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You can find a  SUPER RAVE review on the Inet on Feastrex. 
Everyone has to make their own research and judgements.
At that  price, I want to hear one, before i put down 40G's. 
Field Coil , according to a  friend who has heard FC's.  do not make any magic more than a  good Neodynium magnet. 
In classical muisc, there is not much below 60hz.
However according to  2 labs making the new high tech wide band Neodynium speakers, they claim fq's reach as low as, ~~20hz~~ and extend well beyound the earlier designs of 10k hz. 
One lab, if my eyes see correctly claim 80khz extension. 
Which to me is a  selling gimmick.  And raises a  ~red flag~~
Again in classical orchestra, full symphony, there is hardly any fq's over say,,,10khz. 
Which leads me to my latest mantra ,
Wide band is the ideal choice for classical music. 

atmasphere9,566 posts07-01-2021 10:51amFull range drivers aren't full range.

Any of them I've seen benefit from tweeters and a subwoofer array.

They sound better if bass frequencies are prevented from causing excursion of the cone- this reduces Doppler Effect distortion. Its easy to hear the improvement when this is done. All 'full range' drivers have beaminess in the highs- so its useful to have a tweeter or tweeter array rear-firing to correct off axis tonal balance- so you don't have to have your head in a vise. This helps to 'lock in' the soundstage quite nicely!


This runs counter to the single driver enthusiast's ideal of no crossover. But there it is. You can't get away from these simple facts although there's no harm (other than dollars) in trying :)


The real advantage of a 'full range' driver is they are usually fairly easy to drive- and that's good for amplifiers to make less distortion. But if you want to really hear them at their best, you'll have a crossover of some kind sooner or later.


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Now this is a well thought out post.
Lot of meat N potatoes here.
OK so I like how you mentioned, bass fq;'s can interfer with the cone producing other fq's. 
I would prefer less bass in a  wide band, so I can employ either a  Seas or Scanspeak  *super bass* woofer. 
I have no issues witha  xover in  woofers, not at all. 
So if I need a   tweeter/xover in the 15+hz range, I may skip it, 
There is  just not enough hz's to interest me, however my tech geek mentioned its a  sort of **ambience* in the super highs that you want to capture, = the sparkle, the sheen. 
OK, if I need some sparkles, I'll figure out a  tweeter with xover. Got that.
No problem there.
As far as  **easy to drive*** welll yes, it is true tyhe lower the gain on a  amp vol knob, = more fidelity. 
The higher you turn the knob, the slight increase in distortion. 
Another huge plus for my needs, as i listen near field, 10x12x8 room. 
You know its possible i should order their 5 inch wide band, as being more a  pure midrange with  better highs vs  their 8 inch. 
As I say I have the W18's for bass running up to 800hz's. 
But at 87 db, you really need to crank the vol to get response from the 100hz-800hz. 
This is going to bea  issue, as the wide band has either a  97db, or 91db. 
On the lab site says 97db, but on a  dealer site, the speaker specs is  91db. 
My tech tried to explain  one possibility, but I got side tracked and did not listen carefully.
If the diver is 97db, this will be a  major issue trying to iintergrate a  W18E001 at 87db.  However if its 91db,  the match will be acceptable. 

Think about this' Full symphony orchestra. 
See pic below
https://www.google.com/search?q=picture+of++the+vienna+symphony+orchestra&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUK...
All those FULL  MIDRANGE instruments,, all trying to work their fq's through a  tiny 1 inch hole.
Ridiculous

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=367:e0011-06-t25cf002&ca...


Dome tweeters are a   failure when it comes to large chamber through full symphony orchestra. 

Its like asking a   90 lb  weaking to take on a  Herculean task
Ridiculous

Wide band is the only driver up to this Herculean challenge. 
Horns  would be the only other option. 

murphythecat174 posts07-01-2021 5:41pmtweeters reproduce over 2khz. they are not fullrange.
2khz to 20khz, listen to your orchestra with a highpass at 2khz.

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Yes i stand corrected. 
The Seas Excel W18E001's, are voicing the 40hz-2khz. 
humm, 
Ok well then what we have is the W18;s not being sensitive enough for my preference. 87db is not going to cut it. 
The Millennium is not going to cut the grade either at 87db. 
Both have incredible clarity, its just that you have to set gain vol knob on the Linestage Jadis DPL at 10 oclock, to try to compensate for low efficiency.
Now the tweeter starts stressing out with massive volume when orchestra is in full bloom,. 
OK now we are GETTING somewhere.
The W18E001's can easily handle the 40hz-2K hz with pure musicality. 
Check.
It is the Seas Millennium that gets  stressed out, 
hummmm, 
Thing is there is alot of symphonic fq's in the 2k-6k range.
hummm, 
Solution.
Employ wide band, 8 inch cone.
Check.
Will be a  real bad shootout twix the '
W18E001's vs the wide band in the bass department. 
 have no issues keeping the W18E001's running with the 8 wide band, As the bass in this driver is 1st class. 
And if I need more, I could sell off the 2 pairs of W18's, now 20 yrs old, perform as *New*. and take that cash , buy a  pair of W22 Graphene, use same Mundorf Supreme cap xover. 
If the wide band has all the bass i need/want, the Seas will have to go. 
sadly, as i really love that driver. 
But there is a new  gun on the block, and we will see how this shootout comes off. 
The Millenniums are long gone. Using a  wide band 4 inch + horn tweeter in place of Millennium. 
much better mids.
W18 kicks in at 800hz. 
87db is what we call 
Inefficient. 
91db + = efficient.
91db is the bottom # to be included in the Efficient camp. 
90db = In-efficient camp. 
We need parimeters  and define  tech gargon so we are all on the same page. 
The wide band comming out of china , you need to deduct 2db off the specs. They are cheating, bumping the number up to entice sales.
At times even more than 2db cheat.
The AMT's I got the other day, claimed 97db, 
More like 91 db. or even lower. 
had my tech geek test them on his gadget. 

I was wondering who has heard them and if so, what is or was your take on them compared to full range speakers.donjr01-19-2010 3:13pm~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


You see, back in 2010, some of us could not figure out what these **odd things* were, How did these *most unusual* drivers sound, vs Full Range/3 way, speakers sound. 

Even as of 2018, I had no idea these ,,or lets say I completely forgot about Fostex/Lowther. 
But in 2019, some wide bands offered on Ebay caught my attention. 
Hummm they sure look cool, different from what I  know as a  **speaker*
Just 1  driver?? hummm, How?
I bet the majority of Audiogon members have not even heard a  newer wide band driver as yet.
See the only way to  take the curiosity  a  step further, that  of  real interest, ,  is to open up  access to a  demo of these *out of  the ordinary* speakers.
Otherwise wide band will never become more than they ALWAYS have  been,  a  curiosity. 

My awareness, is now elevated,  now  I am fully aware.
These things are not meant for curiosity only.
these things actually work. 
They can make music, and make music as something unique and special. 
Unlike you've ever heard music in the past. 
Wide band is the future. 
This realiztion  will take some time. 
The next gen of audiophiles will be more awake to these musical marvels. 
We live in a  super high tech world , where new, newer, newest has over taken older designs, year in , year out.
Why should this NEW-ness not become a  part of our audiophile hobby?
Why should we ignore the New if indeed  the tech  does prove itself to be superior?? To the old tech.

Thats at least how i see things. xovers = old, if not out dated technology. Useful at times, but not as a  complete *full range*. A dome tweeter (= old tech) will not ever compete with a  new tech wide band in fq's 2k-15k+hz's. 

Wide band, new high tech has over come all the weaknesses   in our tweeters. 
Lets not kid ourselves. tweeters served their purpose, we had some great music from these little marvels over the past 50 years, ]
Its high time we move on now, and starting thinking outside our boxes.
 
The real test comes in the midrange, here is where xovers /3 way's will fail vs a  high tech wide band. 

murphythecat181 posts07-01-2021 9:54am" Wide band is the ideal choice for classical music. "
if you repeat it enough time, it surely will become true


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This is not propaganda, half truths, maybe yes maybe no, snakeoil
Its the truth
The most IDEAl if not perfect pseaker for CM and also jazz is thw WBer.
Not all WBers are equa, as stated above
There are hifi WBers and then there are trash.

We really need to get some solid info on WBers, as most audiophiles have not evena  clue  how they sound/perform, how to make them work DIY, possibilities as a intergrative system with xover type drivers, whats fq's they do, can't do, do very well.

There is more dis info/misunderstandinf surroundind WBers , it is THE single most understood component in all things hifi audio.
This may be  part of the reason why so few audiophiles even wish to consider at the very least, makinga   tiny attempt to look into  WBers a  speaker choice.

Due to  lack of accurate info, mixed in with  inaccurate info, misunderstandings abound thickly about WBers.
Thus  audiophiles only look upon WBers as some sort of novelty, a  quirky, strange, odd *thingy*

Or is it audiophiles are stuck in old dogs cant learn new tricks kind of frame of mind.

I'd say its 50/50.
Misunderstandings surrounding WBers performance capabilities  + the staunch  if not stubborn attitude  *xover low sens have always worked for me, why change now*
Why?
 Is there any reason to swap low sens for WBers?

Just a  few ideas about WBers , things I think we can all agree are pretty much close to the true facts.
1) WBers are high sens, including Tang band's 2145 @ 90db. And TB's W3,W4 also are 88db which i will include in the higher end (=hifi) speakers both at 88db.
2) Any tube amp,  from a  Jadis JA800 to a  1 watt flea amp, can be  employed with WBers. Although ideally the  smaller EL34 amps are possibly best  match. 
3) you can emply woofers/tweeters as assist speakers along witha  WBer as gaininga  fuller extended fq  band width
4) as stated above
There are good WBers (- hifi) and then there are trash WBers and everything inbetween.
5) its perfectlt acceptable to run a  multi WBer system, as these speakers are very easy to drive and 2,3,or even 4 WBers ina  system will not harm the amplifier, provided it has a high quality trans.
6) Any old cabinet will work witha  WBer, you do not needa  complex over priced horn cabinet to have these speakers perform well.
Perhaps a  exp horn cabinet **might* give a  nuance, but i thinks its all psycho acoustic.
You THINK you are getting super perforamnce from a  expensive cabinet.
I could put my DLVX8 is a cardboard box and get all fq's above 200hz to work just as fine as in Vox/AER's mega $$$$$ cabinet. Lower fq's, yes you needa  wood cabinet. Home Depot sells 1/3 inch snaded ply cheap, which will work just fine, so you save lots of $$$$$
6) midrange is seamless
7) highs are extended, but if you want to add a  tweeter go right ahead.
8) bass is 45hz/50hz.  = you might want to add any old woofer, go right ahead for padded bass.
9) You do not need to spead alot of money of germany's top WBers' as china has clones which are almost as good/as good for alot less. 
10) 2010 is when the new WBer tech speakers really began to make improvements, So if you heard the old Lowthers/Fostex, the newer models have progressed.
11) cone material composition + quality of magnet are 2 highly critical components in WBers, You need to  know about these 2 components before choosinga  WBer
12) the higher the sens, like 98-104db, the lower bass response. has to do with blaring of the midrange which limits the ability of a  deeper bass response. 93-95db is the ideal sens.
13) best cone size for a  WBer is 8 inches, although 6 will work just fine. 
I don't like 10 inch, although I've not heard a  10 inch in real time. (sorry Mr Cube) 

These are just a  few things I've learned about WBers in the past 12 months. 
Some are generaliztions, but close to the truth as i understand these speakers and how they work. 

Others may disagree in some of the **arguable* details of my ideas.