Feel free to talk me off the ledge


Just picked up my new Rogue RP-1 from a dealer. That coupled with my Rogue Atlas, then to my Klipsch Heresy IV's with an SVS PB2000 pro has me over the moon right now. But funny thing happened at the dealer.. I couldn't help myself, I listened to some other speakers. I'm an idiot, a glutton, a fool. As you can imagine I'm now about a third the way down the rabbit hole. 

At the dealer I was enchanted by a pair of Golden ear BRX monitors, they were so sweet, airy and open. Can't stop thinking about them.

Now I'm looking at:

Paradigm founder 80F

Tyler Time Keepers

The Golden Ear BRX

Vandersteen's among others..

Am I nuts? should I join a support group (other than the other one I'm already in) ?

Feedback always appreciated 

128x128Ag insider logo xs@2xdoyle3433

Hi OP, something to consider is the sensitivity of new speakers you may like. Your Klipsch are 99dB sensitive which is unusually high. If the new speakers of interest are only 87dB which is typical, then to get the same SPL you would need to double the power into them 4 times!  And you don't have that kind of power.

The above fact may not be mentioned by the seller of the speakers you are smitten by.

Perhaps something to consider too is that a waveguide/horn with compression driver plays differently to a dome tweeter. By comparison a CD on a waveguide/horn produces, by comparison, unlimited dynamics and greatly reduced distortion. I'm sure you've been to a live concert and noticed that the PA speakers are not equipped with dome tweeters, and for a reason.

From what I can make out your CDs use titanium diaphragms which are known to be a little brash. Try and swap them out for aluminium or beryllium and while you're at it consider replacing the series caps in the midrange and tweeter circuits. There is lots of improvement to be gained there.

The 99dB sensitivity is set by the woofer and to achieve that something is sacrificed and that is the bottom octave, therefore a few subs will completely change the overall performance. If this suggestion is not an immediate 'no no' then read up on the multi-sub approach. Also room treatment, essential for any room makes a huge difference. Ignore those who state: "just hang a curtain and add a rug"  That's not treatment, that's decoration.

Good luck and remember Pink Floyd never played through dome tweeters!

 

 

Well, I would like to listen to the BRX, Time Keepers, Amphions among others. I built a system around a lower powered integrated amp in place of my larger more expensive integrated with good results and am looking at possibly replacing the speakers to something smaller, say 12 to 15 inches tall but preferably smaller than the upper limits. I could give up low bass as long as 50 to 200 Hz+ was covered well enough for a fuller, warm sound as well. Could use a sub to fill in 30 to 50 which I have done in the past never really needing to turn the sub up much, so I am not looking for an overbearing low bass for a small apartment.

There’s a great sale on the Elac Carina right now and I think I decided against it because a reviewer pegged them at 82.5 dB anechoic while both my speakers are higher than 88 dB given the 1 watt/2.83 v measurement. So, that would bring me back to higher power again, maybe? I think the little amp could drive them ok but another review site that drove them with both a Hegel h120 and the Keces E40 stated the E40 drove them less well which is understandable given the difference in drive/wattage. But, at what listening level I do not know. I think a few dBs higher before breakup can influence someone’s opinion even if that sound level is rarely ever listened to. Plus, not sure if they lose their presentation at lower sound levels.

Plus, it’s an odd speaker which needs its’ own stand. The AMT tweeter does add a live flavor to voices but in my experience, that may be it as I once had some Martin Logan 15s in my system. Nice voice but otherwise unremarkable and I did think their choice of mid driver is what held them back. I do think, at the higher price that the Elac Carina would be more than a couple of upgrades from that though. It’s the matter of needing enough power and I am trying to use low power, albeit the Keces E40 is a tremendous little performer and I like it over the Rega Brio. But there are limitations. It is smooth though, like my Hegel. Yes, the Hegel is better but at low to moderate sound levels, it is sufficient. So, for me a more expensive amp may be overkill. thinking of selling it. I mean, I have an amp and dac, even if I add a streamer all would weigh in under 25 lbs which I like as I get older and continue to downsize stuff. A choice I made. If I were to buy a larger amp, I really don’t want over 30#s anymore, so no to alot of high end bigger, bulky products. It’s all moderate or low level listening from here on in.

I also like sweet, airy and open with good resolution. I tried the discounted Silver 100s and liked their low to low mids alot but the upper mids and highs were a bit much in I felt they threw everything at you, but someone could prefer that. The small amp drove them well though and would have kept them if I didn’t compare them to my 807Ws. The bottom end doesn’t have the added bloom but the lows are there and tight, but the mids/highs are really nice, nice enough for movies and really nice for music. Mids were different between the two in detail presented but I think the Focal were a bit more relaxed while the Silvers gave it to you all at once? So maybe I liked the quickness of displaying dynamic range of the Focals better. If you want a high energy speaker with great detail and vg resolution, the Silver 100s fit the bill.

I’d like to get essentially what the 807Ws give me in a smaller package which has been a difficult task. The only budget speaker to give me say give 75% of what they do are my Triangle Zetas (much better for music than Borea, IMO) which will be used nearfield/desktop. Nice budget speakers but thinner sounding, especially when compared to the Silver 100s. It was like listening to a ghost image of what they could do with less detail and resolution (Focals were a bit better in resolution, IMO). The Silver 100s are really nice, easy to drive but I thought they were more slanted to home theater IMO, other wise for the price I paid ($675 delivered), I’d have kept them. They just lacked the sweet and airy but were definitely very open and could go beyond the speakers themselves. Maybe I should have kept them...oh well.

The issue with alot of stand mount speakers is they either need alot of power, don’t perform well at low listening levels or still remain too bulky with what I want to achieve, except perhaps the BRXs (87.5dB(B)/2.83V/m but dip below 4 ohms) and a few others. TimeKeepers at that price may need higher power too but I do not really know other than I expect them to outperform the BRXs, by how much I can’t say or whether I could realize each speakers potential on my desired setup, so synergy is important. Sure, I could use Hegel and Focal for mains and Triangle and Keces for desktop. The nice thing about the Triangles as they sound nice with either class D or AB.

In this hobby, were always near or on the edge, which is why it just not frustrating, but also fun. Let’s call it a fruNstrating hobby.

 

 

There is always something better. There are bests for an individual list of requirements, including budget. When the requirements change, the best options change.

I think the source is most important as the sound quality can only be as good as what comes off the record onto the stylus. From there the best you can do it not lose any potential quality. 

Remember to enjoy the music first and foremost and  not forget that is the reason for getting as high SQ as you want to listen to it.

Nah!!! Don’t listen to anybody else. Just go buy those speakers.

There. Off the ledge.

All my audio gear is squished into a 13’ x 13’ home office. Yet still I manage to fit 10 lbs of crap  in a 5 pound bag. It’s a 2.1 system and has been through at least 6 previous pairs of 2-ways (that go on the desktop for nearfield listening). 3-4 of those were powered.

Then I scored a reburbed, great-condition vintage pair of KEF 103.2s (8" woofer + silk dome tweeter). Like the other speakers that really work here, this is a sealed/acoustic suspension design. I’m in love with this sound, which got even better when I put a DDC in line before the DAC.

But sitting over against the side wall is my "other fantasy speakers," the ATC SCM12 Pro (also sealed, but w/6" woofer). They’re so amazing that I can’t bring myself to sell them.

So I’ll swap them in and out of the desktop system from time to time to drive myself crazy.

Net/net: I’m a fan of loudspeaker polygamy. It’s a victimless crime, unless you consider my wallet a victim...

Well everyone, I’ve ordered a pair of Tyler Timekeepers.

Very excited. I plan on doing a direct A/B comparison between the new Tyler’s and the Klipsch. I am really looking forward to it. 
man I love  this hobby! Let you all know how it plays out.

Congratulations,

You may find that you like both speakers for different reasons, as the two are both great speakers but each of a different character.

Maybe over time you could build separate systems around each - complementing and bringing out the best of both.

I still have an older pair of PSB Stratus Gold i, that I set up in my AV room and still love for playing my old 80s rock and big band. They do so many things so well, I doubt that I’ll ever get rid of them.

Most often I’m in the mood for something more subtle and laid back (light jazz, light-rock, Celtic, old country, old crooners, etc) and spend evening hours in my main audio room, relaxing to the Maggies and tubes.

Enjoy the music and the journey.....Jim

 

@tim_p ....someone always does, eventually... ;)

 

It's not a rabbit hole, which have limits and an end....it's a black hole, which puts you into Punky's Dilemma...kinda...

 

 

not a very high ledge, a story off the ground, maybe even a split level ledge.  

what good is that?

you can do better!

My friend, you are not nuts you have been made aware of a different sound quality of speakers. The depth, height and technology of a speaker matters greatly. My suggestion for you would be to explore the Heritage models further. Something relative about the sound quality of the Klipsch made you stop and take notice, which was most likely the clarity of the highs and midrange drivers. However, the speakers you listed as replacements have lower hertz frequencies than the Klipsch you purchased, not to mention your klipsch project considerably lower from the ground. The Forte IV or the Cornwall would have you wondering for certain.

At this point, however, I cannot imagine you ever being satisfied with your listing space now that you have the knowledge and ear for more. So go for it and be satisfied.

All the best

 

@doyle3433 Will your dealer let you take the demo units home for a quick listen to avoid having to open a sealed pair?  Back when I had dealers near me I would hang out on Saturday afternoon and take something from his consignment stock, returned or demo home and bring back Tuesday as he was closed Sunday and Monday.  It gave me a nice 2 or 3 days with the gear with my system.  I do miss those days.  

I've heard the B&W 800 and 801 Diamonds with dealer-matched expensive electronics plenty, and whether we call it 'fatigue' or not, I do not like those diamond tweeters, great hardware or not. My ears tell me to turn it down or off, not good.

I still think different speakers' tweeters sound different, that's all, some better to me, some not.

Try the BRXs and give us a good report!   grin.

I have lived with Heresys. As you mentioned, that tweeter will drill a hole in your brain.

You have a lot of good suggestions. But the bottom line is how the speaker performs in your room with your system. It is especially vital that your amp mates well. And really has a SQ that sound real to you.

I have been very impressed with the Fyne line. Those designers have taken the blueprint of Tannoy and taken it to a new level. And if you like horns, the Voti are a great choice and not as sharp as the Heresy.

@jerryg123 "other than the guys at Audio Science Review"

What do they like? Did they even listen to the BRX? 

I guess both John Atkinson and Herb Reichert are deaf or hard of hearing, because they both liked the BRX very much. 

I am sorry to inform you, “you are doomed”. Best to never listen to music again and if you must...only listen on a Panasonic boom box.

I’m torn between the Goldenear BRX and the more expensive, by about $500, Buchardt S400 MKII...both utilize passive radiators. My last passive radiator speaker was way back in the 80’s, a pair of Realistic (Radio Shack) Optimus 10’s, those speakers sounded fantastic. They had an 8 inch woofer and a 10 inch passive radiator. Here is an old print ad for them on ebay....these speakers had extraordinary bass that you could feel....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/383838445306?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=27B-9Yf_SPO&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=DsW_0bRwTTC&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

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@sns

I auditioned the BRX further and they truly are a great stand mount, worth every penny and then some! I actually ended up with they Tyler Timekeepers and I’m glad I did. I was very intrigued by the small shop and it’s super helpful and gregarious owner Tyler. A true gentleman and stand up guy. I liked the story, the product in line, read everything I could, and sort of took a leap. First time I’ve ever bought speakers based on other peoples opinions  no regrets at all.
the day I unboxed them and set them up I was filled with trepidation, but was instantly rewarded by a sweet, balanced dynamic monitor with a nice wide and deep soundstage. The woodwork is absolutely gorgeous, in a way they sound like they look. I just received the dedicated stands last week and I do have to say Ty clearly took the same care and craftsmanship with the stands as he did the speakers. I posted a couple pictures on AG virtual systems, have a look.

@audioguy85 Thats what he was saying.

I did get a set and sent them back. ATC11 is much much better. 

Heck with all the great reviews for the GoldenEar BRX speakers (other than the guys at Audio Science Review I may get a set of these to try