@sns A later update of the amp, with an almost identical circuit, did leave out the input caps. It never went into production though.
Regarding cap size, yes the Audience barely fits as it is. So the ODAM would be a good fit unlike most of the others.
198 responses Add your response
@agisthos I wouldn't change cap coupled to direct coupled, designed that way for reason, although equipment feeding amp may have variable dc offset which could alleviate need for cap coupling.
Audience auricap is only mediocre cap, much better out there. I'd be surprised if you could physically fit vast majority of top tier caps, Vcap ODAM perfect for this use. |
Just replaced the stock Gen 1 Sonicap 3.3 mF bypassed with Platinum Sonicap 0.01 mF coupling caps in Dodd Battery Powered preamp with V-Cap ODAM 1mF (100KOhm amp input impedance) bypassed with V-Cap CuTF 0.01mF caps. Wow! Giant killer preamp is now kill anything preamp! Also using LiFePO4 batteries and Victron 24V 5amp charger on preamp...getting 40 hour run time :) Really think anyone contemplating new preamp purchase should consider coupling cap upgrade as well... |
What do you guys recommend for input caps (the literal first component on the circuit) on a power amp? I have a high bandwidth, high slew rate, neutrally voiced power amp. I did some mods recently and changed the stock input caps to Audience XO. Now these sound very pleasant. They have what I would call tone, a very very nice tone you could listen to all day. But the highs have been rolled off and detail slightly obscured compared to the stock input caps. Not what I was really going for. So what to do? The V-Cap CuTF’s are too expensive at $700 for a pair. But the ODAM’s are $165 for a pair, much more reasonable. But do I even need input caps anyway, wouldn’t jumping them with bare solid core hookup wire be even more resolving? But on the other hand doesn’t the input cap protect your speakers from blowing tweeters with passed through DC and various pops and crackles? |
I’ve only ever used TFTF on tubed components so I never got to the point where they sounded sterile. While I’ve never compared the TFTFs directly with CuTFs I get the impression the CuTFs are a touch warmer. In my pre and power amps all the signal path caps are VCaps, two ODAMs and four CuTFs. Overall my sound is a little less warm than before but given I replaced the OEM caps with both CuTFs and ODAMs I can speak only for the blend of the two and not CuTFs and ODAMs individually. What’s most noticeable is detail - it’s off the charts. I cannot recall TFTFs being so transparent. Anybody on a budget should go ODAM. Did I mention how detailed they are? |
The only somewhat negative experience I've ever had with caps we're talking about is once when I used multiple VH Audio TFTF in totally modded phono stage. Too much of the sterile, clinical sound with multiples of that cap. Would have been better off mixing and matching caps in that case. Mundorfs with silver, have to be careful where used. Otherwise, never made a bad choice, purchases always based off many reviews over much time. I'd go with grannyring's suggestion of Odams, why second guess yourself. Listen to those with experience with cap in question. I'd only say all the caps we're talking about will be improvement over the theta. Only you know exactly what seasoning/cap you're looking for. Odams sound like they have it all. |
@grannyring, Although your comments are addressed to @jasbirnandra I’m sure others viewing this are obtaining valuable insight. Not that yours (Or anyone’s) opinion is absolute but certainly it provides some general distinctions between the various capacitors sonic signatures. Before deciding to commit to an expenditure on capacitors it is very helpful to have some degree of appreciation for what their sonic character/signature may be. For most it is not feasible to buy every single capacitor of interest and test them in one’s audio system. Someone such as you who has heard a large sample size of capacitors can offer meaningful guidance. Charles |
If you must stay within a given budget, then this would be a suggested order of performance hierarchy to consider. 1) True Copper & Jupiter HT would be good choices. True Copper will deliver slightly better resolution, inner detail and bass articulation. The HT will be warmer, darker sounding, with rounder bass lines. 2) Miflex will be like the True Copper, but more forward and lively in the upper mids and highs. |
Again, the HT’s will cost “about” the same as Odam? Why not go for the better Odam?! The HT’s are warm and full bodied sounding. Very musical. They are not on the level of the Odams however in most ways really. Not heard the Rike. Yes, the HTs are better than the Theta. They will not give you the realism, inner detail, dynamics and bass articulation of the Odam. Jupiter has stopped making the HT as they are very time consuming to make. Limited inventory left on them. The True Coppers are also better than the Theta. Just because they are film/paper and foil like the HT does not mean they will sound as good as the Odam. They won’t. You may have an aversion to the Odam’s based on something other than price? Seems that way anyway. Don’t go by Humble Audio cap reviews solely as the caps were ONLY tested in a speaker crossover, not electronics. That is a very important distinction. Also, on a tweeter mostly! Caps can and do perform differently in high voltage electronic positions. The Odams are not at all over detailed or bright or forward. No, they are richly detailed with natural warmth and fulsome bass foundation. They are the best of the ones you have mentioned. Frankly, I like them as much as the much more costly Duelund CAST in electronics. Yes, that good. |
I consider the odam very reasonable cost cap, if sq as good as grannyring says, incredible value. In the whole scheme of things $300-$400 not bad. Loudspeaker crossovers with their much large impedance values, and prices, makes electronic cap mods look relatively cheap. My next cap mod will be the odams for sure, likely next few weeks. Their relatively small size is also in their favor, I've faced big hassles in regard to size fitting past film cap mods. |
Dear @jasbirnandra : https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-harmless-signatureless-speakers-capacitors/post?postid=1... Wonderland ( thank's Pauly. ) caps are designed and manufactured on purpose for : tone control. I'm not who is saying that but what exist in internet sites and that's why you are " happy " with and now willing to buy other 18 wonderland caps and of course your " technical leader " is whom support you as pauly too. Here a second fact coming from different source white papers where not only you but all the wonderland caps users can confirm the other link. Please read all the pages an carefully the pages 4-5-6 and you will know why the wonderland caps makes everything but function as a capacitor to fulfil the electronics needs ! ! ! : https://www.wima.de/wp-content/uploads/media/WIMA-Audio.pdf This is what your electronics needs. What you buy is different and your privilege, the amp can't " choose " other that what you want: https://www.mouser.com/WIMA/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Film-Capacitors/FKP-1-Series/_/N-9x371?P=1... https://www.wima.de/de/produkte/impulskondensatoren/fkp-1/ Look at the charts and ask Jupiter or Odam manufacturer that gives you that information. R. |
If the discounted price on the Odam caps is still too high, then I would stick with what you have. Other caps priced at $20-$30 each would be a sideways move for the most part. On paper, I would think the Miflex copper cap an upgrade, but my ears and experience have not proved that out. Some of this is subjective for sure. That is why I asked if you want a more forward and upper mids highlighted sound. If you do, then the Milflex caps may be for you. Also, the cap must fit in the given space. The Miflex are huge! |
The Theta caps are really not bad. Forget the Humble Audio Review site comments on these as in electronics they are pretty good really. That said, your amps are top notch and upgrading to VH Audio Odams is something you will hear and appreciate post burn in. You won’t have to strain to hear how much better the amps will sound. If you buy 16 the cost is some $63 each. I would contact Chris of VH Audio and see if he would work with you on another 10-15% off? Never know. These will be better than the Jupiter copper. If you get the price closer to $50-$55 each, then the 16 will cost about $320 more for the entire amp upgrade. Money well spent if you want to hear the most from your amp and plan to keep it for a long time. |
" I am using the Canary Grand reference with 8 tubes on each side when I opened the amp cover each tube had a cap underneath it" You will need to do all the power tube caps at the same time. Sounds like you have 16 power tube caps? Ouch - that's a lot of caps you need to do. I'm not even going to ask what it will cost to replace the tubes ... Good luck |
Yes, those are coupling caps and are certainly and important ingredient to your amplifier’s sound. Those are wonderful amplifiers with great build quality. I owned the 339 monoblock Reference amps and enjoyed them tremendously. Canary used Hovland capacitors for years. Hovland only makes the black colored Supercaps now. Are they in your amp now? Perhaps the older blue or yellow colored Hovland caps? Please let me know. Please let me know what’s in there now and I can help you decide if an upgrade is worth it and which ones are worth the time, money and effort. The Miflex are forward sounding. If you want a more immediate and forward sound, then they will do that. I found their presentation was impairing my ability to enjoy music over longer listening sessions, Just too forced and compared to being at ease and set back a tad further. Those amps deserve the best and will reflect the sound quality upgrade the right part will deliver. If you have the black Hovland Supercap, then I would not replace with Miflex. Not a worthwhile investment in time, dollars and effort. |
@jasbirnanda I would advise to not change all your caps at once. Change maybe one or two pairs at a time and sit back and listen. If your sound goes in the wrong direction, you can alter your path. If you feel the sound is on the right path, you go ahead. Each time you will hear an improvement, so you get to enjoy the improvement every time. Another benefit would be distributing your costs over time, so you can buy really good quality capacitors. |
I like Vcap Odam much more than Miflex . Just pulled out Miflex and replaced with Odam in my amp. Much better after break in. Everything improved from bass to highs. More depth, more inner detail…..you get it. Miflex are forward sounding and not as smooth and detailed as Odams. Odams are even better sounding than Jupiter copper in my experience, but I shared this already. |
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Ultimately put the Jupiter in the Pre and yes there was a difference and for good but how good it will be when it settles down is to be heard just done 17 hours and the boat still sails keeping my fingers crossed because a big amount is spent on the caps hopefully it should get me what I want to achieve. |
Dear friends : I know that you don't like that " something " can disturb your staus-quo and certainly in no way is that my " arrogant " attitude. The isse is that each thread in Agon is looking for thousands of gentlemans and not only by the ones that are posting. Several of those viewers need to read and " listen " a different " song " and not always the same because each one of them have their own way of thinking and their common sense. They have the rigth to know alternatives and way important are the FACTS on each one of those alternatives and that's why I share and I post all those information in the capacitor subject. This is a public forum but any one of you can make your own closed blog and in this way no one can disturb you. No one is owner of the capacitor " bible " as several of you think are and along that do not like that any one could post something that goes far away from your own " true ". Btw, """" to tell people what they hear, select and prefer is wrong..."""" @charles1dad , please don't put words in my mouth: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/capacitor-2/post?postid=2233634#2233634 That was my answer to what you posted about. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@pauly, "We really need a mute button." Well folks have stopped responding to those posts directly , so he’s essentially talking to himself. When you are so ridiculously arrogant to tell people what they hear, select and prefer is wrong and misguided, that is pure foolishness and beyond the pale. Charles |
When a person dies, he feels no pain. All the pain is felt by the people in the deceased persons sphere; the people who interacted with the deceased and are now left behind. The deceased is blissfully unaware of the pain his passing causes. The arrogant and conceited is much the same. The big difference is that the deceased dies but once. The arrogant and conceited knows no frontiers, he will never be satiated as he believes his comments are appreciated and needed. We really need a mute button. |
Could be a good thing that all of you believers of " snake oil " can answer for your self this questions: What looks any electronic/speaker designer when choose passive and active parts in his design? what is looking the designer for the audio item performance? ( obviously that at choosed price point. ). He has several targets but at the end and due that his audio items are for sale he looks for an audio item design that over time been and be STABLE suffering the lower time degradation he can achieve at his price point. Boutique resistors, capacitors, fuses and the like not only are not stable ( all of you confirm it when talk of " burn-in " ) but " could or can change or change the overall audio item stability ( as a fact exist a risk for the audio items. ) an its designed operation conditions. Again, no audio system can improves what is in the recording what recording microphones pick-up, only can degrade the audio signal. COMMON SENSE is the name of the game not our imperfect and limited aged ears capacities. R. |
Dear @jasbirnandra @sns : ""
how many hours of burn in will open the cap."" "
Prior to burn in...." Been a follower in the past I asked the same questions thinking to go in the rigth path and deceited by my self ears and because I wanted that that been happening no matters what . My ignorance levels in that specific regards was really high till I learned through technical oriented gentlemans that know " what is all about a capacitors ". If you can read carefully the next information ( that does not comes by me. ) to know that are our ears the ones ( along other " things " ) that makes a self deceit because caps does not need burn-in: """""" Speaking from science, not superstition, I have yet to see -- or hear -- proof that film capacitors need to "settle in." The reasons you use film capacitors are: (1) they more closely approximate the theoretical ideal of a capacitor than electrolytics -- especially in regard to frequency response; (2) they are far less inclined to change their characteristics than electrolytics; (3) if carefully manufactured, the foil and dialectric are evenly wound or layered. Note point (3). If a capacitor is NOT evenly wound or layered, then the capacitance per unit area along the foil wrap will exhibit a higher statistical variance; and this variance will show up as a correspondingly higher statistical variance in the transfer of signal through the electric field, which can further yield an indistinctness in phase response on the "downside" of the capacitor. So, here's the challenge: what, other than an accommodation factor in the listening, is the technical explanation for why a film capacitor would need a "settling" or "burn-in" time? One thing is clear about breaking in speakers . . . the compliance of the spider, and often of the surround DOES change with use (they become more compliant). Old speakers that have been sitting around a long time often have unduly stiff spiders. Styli usually sag a little after a break-in phase, and need to have the VTA recalibrated. * * * * * Take a box of styrofoam chips and shake it. After a while, the chips do indeed settle. The semi-random motion of the chips allows them to fill more spaces between each other, plus as they settle the lumped potential energy declines as the center of mass of the chips moves slightly down. So . . . are there physical imperfections in the manufacture of capacitors which allow small amounts of internal movement in the capacitor during the so-called "break in" time, such that the capacitor arrives at a lower energy state? In an ideal capacitor, nothing should move. . . . has anyone measured the microphonic characteristics of capacitors said to settle in over time? Has anyone determined if there's a tiny change in temperature? """""" " I'll be the odd man out. I have never seen any evidence that capacitors, particularly film capacitors, require a burn-in. If a film capacitor significantly changes after, say, 25-50 hours of use, I quickly unsolder it, toss it in the trash and replace it with a stable device. Film capacitors are not cheese or wine. What "burns in" is the human brain, and this is referred to in psychoacoustics and elsewhere by terms like "perceptual accommodation". "" """ With the exception of electrolytic capacitors in DC power supplies, capacitors don't burn-in. """ """ Honestly, if a film capacitor needs any sort of "break-in", it's poorly constructed and should be avoided """ https://www.head-fi.org/threads/capacitor-burn-in-how-long-does-it-really-take.442436/ Low QC with boutique caps is the real issue of that no-sense needs of " burn-in ". Certainly not me but no one of you can prove it needs burn-in other than its low quality construction that makes that over 100-200+ hours of " play " its operation parameters changed ( this fact goes against the elctronics normal behavior and in speakers makes changes in the crossover frequency. ) when in any good engineered capacitor that does not happens. So the boutique cap does not " improves " over time but the other way around: it just degraded through that time and it's this high degradation of the cap what we are listening through our imperfect and way limited ears. In any audio system nothing can improve over time. The best that could happens in an ideal audio system is not degrade the audio signal we are listening but unfortunatelly this " ideal " audio system does not exist but in our imagination. "" Does a capacitor improve sound quality? A cap prevents the sound from deteriorating due to under-voltage, but doesn't actually improve the sound. It supports the amplifier by feeding it the power it needs for short bursts. So, while not improving sound quality directly, a cap does make it easier for the amp to perform its best. "" A good cap makes that, a boutique cap can't do it. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Assuming he didn't change any values, no. I'd not go with less voltage rating than stock, and impedance values should stay stock or very close as they were chosen for a reason. Heat can be an issue for some film caps, certain materials such as paper, bees wax may not be best for high heat environment. Physical size could be issue, rubbing components together could be issue. |
Prior to burn in, I generally hear what I'd describe as an uptight sound, lack of transparency, also, excessive attack , attenuated decay. I'm not going to generalize about tonality, timbre. For sure you'll know when they reach burned in state, often the change comes on in what seems an instant. Suddenly you'll hear an opening up, could also be called blooming of sound. I'm sure the burn in process is slow and ongoing, but almost without exception, the last bit happens in just an instant. Many say 100 hours is usual for the process, I hate to say any particular hours, expectation bias sets in with a set amount of hours. I'd say anywhere between 75 and 200 hours should get you most of the way there. I usually don't even bother listening anymore prior to 75 hours or so, why suffer the burn in if you don't have to. You may be tempted to come to conclusions prior to burn in if you have to suffer through disappointing sound for too long. If new to cap swaps you may want to hear at least occasionally during burn in to evaluate before and after burn in sound. |
What I forgot to mention the Duelund are a great capacitors way too much $$ and huge, they are top notch caps great detail and depth ,just slightly better the the Jupiter in layering ,but the Jupiter Copper foil has great overall balance, and much less $$ ,they are within a % point or two of each other detail on top is very good on both ,but the VH Audio CUTF is the best of the best in that dept by adding between 2-3% in the VH as a bypass cap the best of both worlds if you have a capacitor you need 2 uf or under the VH audio are pretty neutral slightly to the warm side but very big and for a pr of 1 uf for example around $1k. greatness cost $$. |
I have been doing capacitor upgrades for some time now i,especially coupling capacitors in dacs, preamplifiers and loudspeakers . The best capacitor for detail is without question the VH audio CUTF -Copper foil Teflon it only goes up to 2 uf I believe , as a main Cap ,my best combination is for main cap Jupiter Waxed paper Copper foil ,which inside a amp is good to at least 160+ degrees ,no more bees wax. Use up to 3% of the VH audio CUTF bypass capacitors , they are pretty expensive and room in m any cases is an issue ,I just installed this in my Coda CSIB integrated , and helped a friend in his Loudspeaker this is better then the Duelund cast capacitors at much lower cost they do need a solid 400 hours to fully open up But a fantastic combination ,and my preamplifier now is in another league sounding . If you email me I can send you a couple pics to show scale,size. |
The overall advantage with the Klark TekniK item or similar ones is that we have de control of that " tailored " kind of quality performance and we are not at out of control an at random like with the boutique combination caps. In that regards there is nothing that can does the caps for we can have the control we are in the caps " hands ". Now, our items in the audio systems already came with caps ( that makes it's technical job. ) and the eq. path is for fine tunning that audio room/system: advantages are to many to name it here but just " think about ". R. |
Technical Specifications
Inputs
Type Electronically balanced (pin 2 hot)
Impedance 20 kΩ
Maximum input level +22 dBu
Outputs
Type Electronically balanced (pin 2 hot)
Minimum load impedance 600 Ω
Source impedance <60 Ω
Maximum output level +22 dBu into >2 kΩ
Performance
Frequency response ±0.5 dBu 20 Hz - 20 kHz
relative to signal at 1 kHz
EQ out ±0.5 dBu
EQ in (flat) ±0.5 dBu
Distortion (THD+N) < 0.003% @ 1 kHz +4 dBu
Dynamic range >114 dB
(20 Hz - 20 kHz unweighted, ±12 dB range)
Overload indicator +20 dBu
Gain control -∞ to +6 dBu
Equalisation 30 Bands
Centrefrequencies To BS EN ISO 266:1997 25 Hz-20 kHz,
1/3 octave tolerance ±5%
Maximum boost/cut ±12 dB, ±6 dB
High pass filter slope 12 dB/octave
Low pass filter slope 12 dB/octave
Notch filterattenuation >17 dB
Notch filter response Q=32
Terminations
Audio 3-pin XLR and 6-pin Phoenix-style
Power 3-pin IEC
Power Requirements
Voltage 100 to 240 VAC, 50 to 60 Hz
Consumption <60 W
Dimensions
Width 483 mm (19.0")
Depth 228 mm (9.0")
Height 133 mm (5.2")
Weight
Net 5.8 kg (12.8 lbs)
Options
Input and output balancing transforme. |
Dear gentlemans : Seriously and in good shape. Next item is a trusty " best boutique cap, it's the boutique cap of the caps " to enhance any room system MUSIC enjoyment and with several advantages over any an all those caps and permits that you tailored the MUSIC natural color you want it and with very low added distortion levels. It comes not from a new comer manufacturer but from an experienced one, with high engineering levels, excellent QC and the item has very high quality performance. We can't go wrong with: https://www.klarkteknik.com/product.html?modelCode=P0ACA here its specs in page 6: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Fmediadl.musictribe.com%2Fmedia%2Fsys_master%2Fh6c%2Fhaf%2F8847686893598.pdf&clen=6221900&chunk=true In the past I owned items coming from this manufacturer and I will buy again. Have fun and be truly happy. R. @audioman58 I had for 3-4 months a Coda amplifier and are really good, unfortunatelly a manufacturer with low profile but very good one. |
